Is it this hard for everyone?

Keep at it. I found mine (after 3 failed attempts) on a facebook selling group and I was the first to comment. I commented on a Friday, went out and bought the plane on the following Wednesday. The owner had a dozen other people call to look at it, but gave me first dibs which was awfully nice. Depending on the plane you buy you might have to buy it FAST. The market for 180/182's is pretty nuts right now so I bought mine as is where is. I got a pre-buy, but there was no negotiating to be done afterwards.

Anyway keep at it, and be prepared to move VERY fast on some of these planes. You might have to take risks you're not comfortable with, but it's worth it in the end.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Anyway keep at it, and be prepared to move VERY fast on some of these planes. You might have to take risks you're not comfortable with, but it's worth it in the end.
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+1

“When it rains, it pours”

When I purchased my plane, I had to work quickly as other buyers came into the fray trying to purchase the aircraft also. I was fortunate as the seller’s agent (friend of the seller) honored my position as “first to contact, first serious buyer” and worked with me on agreeing to a value based upon very honest photos and descriptions. After running the gauntlet of other sellers, the transaction on my airplane was a complete breath of fresh air.

Point is: As advised above, be prepared to move quickly, don’t worry about negotiating the very best deal (you may not have the time), but have a number you’re prepared to put out there on an aircraft based upon photos, description and logbook, and (IMO) make the deal with some latitude toward the prebuy inspection discoveries.
 
A lot of commenters make the point about getting a serious offer out as quickly as possible, so let me ask how everyone decides what a "fair" offer should be. Has anyone found any of the aircraft valuation services worthwhile (vRef, Aviation Bluebook, NIAA, etc), and if so, what number do you start with? Is there a better way? Is it different when working with a dealer versus a private seller? Any suggestions for how to handle the case where someone has a great airplane, but a lopsided idea of what it's worth?
 
Vince R said:
A lot of commenters make the point about getting a serious offer out as quickly as possible, so let me ask how everyone decides what a "fair" offer should be. Has anyone found any of the aircraft valuation services worthwhile (vRef, Aviation Bluebook, NIAA, etc), and if so, what number do you start with? Is there a better way? Is it different when working with a dealer versus a private seller? Any suggestions for how to handle the case where someone has a great airplane, but a lopsided idea of what it's worth?
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Well my experience is with Cessna 180's only so YMMV. Right now, there is no negotiating. It's asking price only, and in some cases, more. There were none on Trade-a-plane when I was looking, and now the only ones on there are waaay out of my budget.

Unfortunately for the buyer right now Basic med has trashed the market for us. Way less planes being sold and more being bought because people can fly again/still. 172's have jumped up ~10k in value recently.

An alternative is to look at aircraft that are more off the beaten path so to speak. Bellanca Vikings, Piper Comanche's, VERY early model 182/210's etc. Planes that are still great aircraft, but not necessarily the first thoughts on everyone's mind.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've bought and sold a few, and it can be just as frustrating being on the selling side. I've had someone pull out on the day they were supposed to come inspect the plane and fly it home, I've had offers made and people go dark only to turn up later (after much persistence on my part) having already bought another plane they'd made an offer on at the same time.

Most of the time, though, I haven't had too much trouble buying. Call (don't email) the seller to ask your questions - People don't take emails seriously and will think you're a tire kicker. Make arrangements to look at the plane yourself, including logbooks. If all looks good, sign paperwork and plunk down a deposit. Have the plane inspected by an A&P. Make any necessary adjustments to the price (or even cancel the deal) depending on their findings. Sign paperwork, hand over barrel of money, fly home.

The last transaction(s), about a year ago, happened as if they were just meant to be. Selling the club's old Archer (with 3200 hours SMOH, GX55 GPS, original 1978 paint & interior) and replacing it with a much nicer one (1980, 95 SMOH, Garmin 430, very nice paint & leather interior). While we advertised and shopped on a nationwide basis, it ended up that the buyer of the older one and the seller of the newer one were both people I knew. The older plane moved about 20 miles south to the airport we had bought it from in 1993, and the plane we purchased was already based on our field!

That said, our prior purchases were from brokers, and those worked well. Those guys don't get paid if they don't sell the plane.
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I find buying fun...but selling, wow, (at least to me) what a friggin' pain!
 
In the end this is really the hard part. Placing a valuation on an aircraft with lots of different variations in time and equpment in a changing market. Perhaps a buyers agent?
As for overpriced valuations, that is tough. Most people overvalue their stuff, especially if they do not feel a compelling need to sell. It is hard to talk them down. But having been where you are, I agree with the advice given so far. This is what I found when I was looking. The best equiped planes were in the end a better value even if you paid more upfront. Be ready to move. Look everyday several times. Remember, lots of others are looking also. If you find Close to what you were looking for and it is still available, don't hesitate to say I'll take it. I missed out on a good deal because I said 'Let me think about it. I called back the next day and it was gone. Dont put too many restrictions on how far you are willing to travel to get what you want.
 
Vince R said:
Any suggestions for how to handle the case where someone has a great airplane, but a lopsided idea of what it's worth?
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In those situations, you may not get the plane. I peeved of an owner so bad with an offer that they refused to answer emails or take my calls. It happens. A seller can stick to what they think a plane is worth, VREF or not.

Some buyers have had good luck with brokers advocating for them. Or in my case, keep trying until you find a receptive seller (or his friend/agent.)

(Take with a grain of salt as I’m a LSA driver) I checked with AOPA’s vREF and didn’t find it very accurate. I signed up to VREF Online (not AOPA’s) and there were a lot of variables you’d have to account for, but it’s values were closer. A broker might be able to give you closer ballpark pricing.
 
FWIW I think VREF lags behind current trends quite badly. I wouldn't use that as a marker but rather other aircraft of similar type for sale as the marker for what a plane is worth.
 
I just looked at the advertised price of similar aircraft in Tradeaplane, Controller and Barnstormers. I didnt get a bargain price, but I was looking at airplanes that were low time, had the avionics I wanted and almost everything worked. What didnt work right I deducted for and paid the asking price (just a few little things). I got my plane. IMO, its worth the extra few thousand to get a low maintenance plane that doesnt have anything wrong with it. I want to fly, not fix.

If you want it NOW, you will have to pay more. If you are willing to wait and search, you can get better bargains. Thats basic economics.

If you want a project, buy a project plane that needs a lot of fixing.
 
Morgan3820 said:
In the end this is really the hard part. Placing a valuation on an aircraft with lots of different variations in time and equpment in a changing market. Perhaps a buyers agent?
As for overpriced valuations, that is tough. Most people overvalue their stuff, especially if they do not feel a compelling need to sell. It is hard to talk them down. But having been where you are, I agree with the advice given so far. This is what I found when I was looking. The best equiped planes were in the end a better value even if you paid more upfront. Be ready to move. Look everyday several times. Remember, lots of others are looking also. If you find Close to what you were looking for and it is still available, don't hesitate to say I'll take it. I missed out on a good deal because I said 'Let me think about it. I called back the next day and it was gone. Dont put too many restrictions on how far you are willing to travel to get what you want.
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I know that as a group, pilots are an affluent bunch, but I'm wondering what the financing and insurance companies are thinking about valuations. An example is a plane I looked at recently...the three valuation services gave me numbers from $175K to $200K based on equipment and condition, but the owner wanted $275K. If the owner sticks by that price, does that mean he's pretty much limiting himself to cash buyers? Assuming I spent the $275K, what is the insurance company thinking if I ask for a policy with a hull value that's 35% above book value?

I'm sure this evens out over time...if there are a lot of transactions over book value, then I'd expect the book value to creep up until it reflects market reality, but that probably takes a while given the relatively low numbers of transactions we're talking about. For instance, the Aircraft Bluebook folks show a "price trend" number backed by historical data, and as of Spring 2018, they seem to be saying "flat" for most of the models I'm looking at, so it seems like the uptick some of you guys are reporting isn't reflected in their data yet.
 
Vince R said:
I know that as a group, pilots are an affluent bunch, but I'm wondering what the financing and insurance companies are thinking about valuations. An example is a plane I looked at recently...the three valuation services gave me numbers from $175K to $200K based on equipment and condition, but the owner wanted $275K. If the owner sticks by that price, does that mean he's pretty much limiting himself to cash buyers? Assuming I spent the $275K, what is the insurance company thinking if I ask for a policy with a hull value that's 35% above book value?

I'm sure this evens out over time...if there are a lot of transactions over book value, then I'd expect the book value to creep up until it reflects market reality, but that probably takes a while given the relatively low numbers of transactions we're talking about. For instance, the Aircraft Bluebook folks show a "price trend" number backed by historical data, and as of Spring 2018, they seem to be saying "flat" for most of the models I'm looking at, so it seems like the uptick some of you guys are reporting isn't reflected in their data yet.
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As far as insurance, I've never had my agent question what I tell him the hull value is...although I've never owned a plane worth 6 figures either, nor have I made an insurance claim.
 
Forgive me if someone else already said it, but....

That’s what she said.
 
Here is a thought, Turbo Arrows. They are still depressed on the market because of the turbo stigma, particularly the Arrow IV. A friend just sold his after a year of trying. Had to take way less. There are a lot of aftermarket add-ons like intercoolers and automatic waste gates that I think improve the reliability and value. I looked at them and was tempted but my mechanic was very opposed to the idea. Even if you are a flatlander there are a couple of performance advantages. Just a thought.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Here is a thought, Turbo Arrows. They are still depressed on the market because of the turbo stigma, particularly the Arrow IV. A friend just sold his after a year of trying. Had to take way less. There are a lot of aftermarket add-ons like intercoolers and automatic waste gates that I think improve the reliability and value. I looked at them and was tempted but my mechanic was very opposed to the idea. Even if you are a flatlander there are a couple of performance advantages. Just a thought.
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Yes, I'm pretty familiar with Arrows - while my search lingers on, that's what I'm mostly flying. The one I fly isn't a Turbo, so it's pretty slow - like 130-140 knots depending on altitude - and it seems to be a maintenance hog, as it's been in the shop way too often for me, sometimes for weeks at a time. But still, I keep that option in the back of my head...if I get too frustrated trying to find the perfect plane, I can always pick up a creampuff Arrow for a lot less than I've been looking to spend, and I'm sure I'd learn to be happy with it. There are probably a few other possibilities, too, if not an Arrow.

Thing is, at my age (late 50's), I really want to have my "forever" airplane that I can get proficient in and use for as many flying years as I have left. I really don't want to settle, then regret, then spend another year or two selling and upgrading - I'd rather take the pain all at once.
 
On the financing side, yes, if their valuation calculators say $200k, that's what they'll finance. Now, if you want to increase your 20%(or whatever) down payment by that extra $75k, then you can probably do that.
 
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Vince R said:
Yes, I'm pretty familiar with Arrows - while my search lingers on, that's what I'm mostly flying. The one I fly isn't a Turbo, so it's pretty slow - like 130-140 knots depending on altitude - and it seems to be a maintenance hog, as it's been in the shop way too often for me, sometimes for weeks at a time. But still, I keep that option in the back of my head...if I get too frustrated trying to find the perfect plane, I can always pick up a creampuff Arrow for a lot less than I've been looking to spend, and I'm sure I'd learn to be happy with it. There are probably a few other possibilities, too, if not an Arrow.

Thing is, at my age (late 50's), I really want to have my "forever" airplane that I can get proficient in and use for as many flying years as I have left. I really don't want to settle, then regret, then spend another year or two selling and upgrading - I'd rather take the pain all at once.
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I guess now I will have to sell my crappy Arrow ☹️

Every boat, plane, house purchase is a compromise. People, myself included, always want more than what they paid for. Good luck and well wishes in your search.
 
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In the three planes I bought I went and looked knowing about what I wanted to spend on it. Looked it over, flew it and if I liked it made an offer right there contingent on pre-buy inspection.
 
Vince R said:
Nice looking arrow - looks way nicer than the one I fly.
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See the mistake you make is assuming the way it looks has any bearing on the way it flies. Reminds me of those tool senior enlisted I encounter who presume my lack of uniform tidiness after raging all day at 500 knots with an unqualified student is a reflection of a lack of attention to detail when it comes to being an expert at my job. It's an incredibly short-sighted and parochial outlook in life. Or it could be straight up envy, and I digress.

Does it affect resale? Of course. But you'd be remiss to assume something is a "mx hog" based on cosmetics. I can show you mx legders dating back to five years on my partially painted Arrow. In short, less than 9K/yr per year all-in and 320 hours flown. Memories made with my family over 5 years? Priceless. Or I could keep saving to buy proverbial Meridian by the time I hit social security age (kind of presumptuous of me to assume I'll get to see the day in the first place) and make no memories cuz everybody is grown and gone.

Frankly, some folks make this way harder than it has to be. Identify the metrics, judge how important it is for you to have today, then take a shot you can afford and live with it. When you realize there's no guarantees in life, this buy/sell kabuki becomes a lot more self-critiquing. To quote my favorite poker movie: "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle.. but you can't win much either". At the age of high-50s, you're not in a position to wait in earnest. The reality is that absent some insane airframe corrosion uncovered, these 4/6 seater piston singles may **** you off, but they're not gonna eat you out of house and home. And at your age, if you're not already positioned for a certain retirement income level attainment, you're screwed anyways. 50-80K ain't gonna make a blip of difference in retirement at your age. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good enough. Good luck to you.
 
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I thought I’d resurrect this thread for the simple reason that I finally found my airplane!

After lots of soul-searching, I decided what I really wanted was a nice F33A Bonanza, and that it would take maybe 10% more than the budget I started with. But the real game-changer was admitting that I lacked the connections and the experience to make it happen on my own in the timeframe I wanted.

In the end, I actually took the advice of an early poster in this thread and got in touch with Bob Stephens - what a game-changer. It still took a few months, but with Bob’s help, I found a low-time 1991 Bonanza with a great glass panel, terrific interior/paint and only 400 hours on the engine. I couldn’t be happier, and I’d recommend Bob 100% to anyone that’s been frustrated in the search.

Of course, even with professional help, all wasn’t roses. At one point, we thought we had a plane locked up - signed purchase agreements, money in escrow, etc - and the owner sends an email backing out of the deal. Pretty crushing.

Still, while I wish I could have found it earlier and without all the stress, I have to admit that I’m feeling pretty good about the outcome.
 
Vince R said:
I thought I’d resurrect this thread for the simple reason that I finally found my airplane!

After lots of soul-searching, I decided what I really wanted was a nice F33A Bonanza, and that it would take maybe 10% more than the budget I started with. But the real game-changer was admitting that I lacked the connections and the experience to make it happen on my own in the timeframe I wanted.

In the end, I actually took the advice of an early poster in this thread and got in touch with Bob Stephens - what a game-changer. It still took a few months, but with Bob’s help, I found a low-time 1991 Bonanza with a great glass panel, terrific interior/paint and only 400 hours on the engine. I couldn’t be happier, and I’d recommend Bob 100% to anyone that’s been frustrated in the search.

Of course, even with professional help, all wasn’t roses. At one point, we thought we had a plane locked up - signed purchase agreements, money in escrow, etc - and the owner sends an email backing out of the deal. Pretty crushing.

Still, while I wish I could have found it earlier and without all the stress, I have to admit that I’m feeling pretty good about the outcome.
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Need pics.
 
Vince R said:
I thought I’d resurrect this thread for the simple reason that I finally found my airplane!

After lots of soul-searching, I decided what I really wanted was a nice F33A Bonanza, and that it would take maybe 10% more than the budget I started with. But the real game-changer was admitting that I lacked the connections and the experience to make it happen on my own in the timeframe I wanted.

In the end, I actually took the advice of an early poster in this thread and got in touch with Bob Stephens - what a game-changer. It still took a few months, but with Bob’s help, I found a low-time 1991 Bonanza with a great glass panel, terrific interior/paint and only 400 hours on the engine. I couldn’t be happier, and I’d recommend Bob 100% to anyone that’s been frustrated in the search.

Of course, even with professional help, all wasn’t roses. At one point, we thought we had a plane locked up - signed purchase agreements, money in escrow, etc - and the owner sends an email backing out of the deal. Pretty crushing.

Still, while I wish I could have found it earlier and without all the stress, I have to admit that I’m feeling pretty good about the outcome.
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Wonderful outcome.

BUT...:needpics:
 
well....the only thing we need are pics.

A v-tail woulda been even better. :D
 
nice....:D

If you haven't already done so.....I'd yank those kiddie seats out in the back. That will save you 26 lbs for baggage and you'll hardly use them. Mine are out. Have your A&P make up a new weight and balance data sheet and while he's at it put in options to remove the middle seats for even more should you have a need to take those out for a trip or two.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
nice....:D

If you haven't already done so.....I'd yank those kiddie seats out in the back. That will save you 26 lbs for baggage and you'll hardly use them. Mine are out. Have your A&P make up a new weight and balance data sheet and while he's at it put in options to remove the middle seats for even more should you have a need to take those out for a trip or two.
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Yes, we already did that...most of our flying is two up front and maybe our English Bulldog in the back - can't really imagine having much use for the 5th seat.
 
Have you found a hanger yet? I hear that Howie built another maintenance hanger.
 
There’s a ton of construction at KSUT. I’m hoping when it’s all done I can find a hangar there - if anyone has any leads, please feel free to let me know. Otherwise, I’ll probably just end up in Wilmington 45 minutes away.
 
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