Missing Cessna 210 - Colorado to Utah

SkyDog58 said:
Thank you. That is what I was asking in part. I know how to use the registry.
Click to expand...

You are welcome.

John M said:
What “leap” ? The plane is/has been known in our local airports !! No leap - solid intel
Click to expand...

I could have phrased the question better, and I apologize if it offended you. Not being able to find the tail number mentioned in the usual sources; media reports, the FAA "Preliminary Accident and Incident Reports", and the NTSB "Aviation Accident Database & Synopses" to name a few, I did not know if there were additional public sources that I hadn't considered in order to find the tail number so I asked the question.

Regardless, it is a tragic event and I hope the aircraft and pilot are soon located to bring closure to those concerned. IIRC, to was almost a year after Steve Faucet disappeared before clues to the crash were accidentally discovered by a hiker after SAR efforts had pulled out all the stops looking for his aircraft.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Search has been suspended due to Wx.
http://www.dailycamera.com/erie-news/ci_31787183/search-plane-that-vanished-between-erie-and-utah
Click to expand...
Looking in South Park? Wow. No good way out of there and a bumpy ride in from the Denver side with 50 kt winds aloft. There's a lot of aircraft aluminum on Monarch pass. The other choices headed west really aren't much better. Can try slipping over to the San Louis Valley but that'll make ya get religion with 50 kt winds. I've flown in that valley with high winds and while it's survivable it isn't any fun at all.
 
Salty said:
Just because someone does not think like you does not mean they are being rude. Intentionally calling someone stupid, then pretending you didn't by using technicalities (we all know you were calling him stupid, your intent was plain and continues to be plain), instead of actually explaining where they misunderstood, is rude and has no redeeming qualities.

You were rude to someone that simply did not interpret things the way you did. Instead, you seem to believe that anyone that does not see things the way you do is intentionally going out of their way to annoy you. It must suck to live like that. I feel sorry for you.
Click to expand...
LMAO. What a ridiculous position to take. I am certainly not pretending anything. I am sorry you cannot separate actions from the person. And then you turn around and assault me? Wow. That was truly a stupid response.

And again I note that I did not call you stupid. I did call your response stupid because it is. Sorry. Maybe you should ignore me because you obviously are unable to respond in a reasonable fashion.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
*ridiculous*

Also all of you drop it. This argument goes no further.
Click to expand...
Smeling corrected. I will not accept assaults in posts here without a response. The MC can do what they want including self-admitted trolling.
 
The ignore function goes both ways gentlemen.

It’s the internet. Not work, family name/pride, or life/limb. Perspective.

I am now flame-able.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Lol. Not so much.
Click to expand...
You already admitted you only looked at one side. It was pointless to later backtrack and claim that you considered both sides. Once you crap in your messkit like that the best thing to do is shut up and hope no one else notices.
 
I have control.
No, I have control...
 
azblackbird said:
I believe most here are pattern flyers anyways. No need to file when you're only 5 or 10 miles from your base. ;)
Click to expand...
Meh the experience present on this board is very broad. I don’t make any assumptions about the experience behind a post. Besides that 100hour local area fun flyers just might be able to teach you something you don’t know.....if you’re listening.
 
Looking up the tail number, the aircraft is a 1960 Cessna
210A. That’s the first model that Cessna badged a 210, but it really was a 182 with an early retractable gear system that added extra weight. Engine is a Continental O-470, normally aspirated. All in all it’s a less capable airplane for mountain flying than a later 210.

I’ve flown over that route many times in perfectly clear weather in our T210N. I’ve been very glad to have a turbocharged engine (TSIO-520) and a built-in O2 system. In winter weather over the Rockies I leave the T210 in its hangar and take Southwest.

I hope they are OK.

Maurice.
 
Maurice:

That plane N68640 is/was a rare plane. It had a Riley Twin Turbo conversion which made that a very capable and excellent plane.
Seems there is much to this story - almost sounds like the plane never flew that day or flew off into oblivion with an inexperienced pilot (for that plane) - a plane out of annual and registration — and pilot not current or with up to date medical. The plane was reported on radar 1 hour east of Richfield — then reports the search was near the Continental Divide @ FairPlay area. Winds were were 50-60 knots - conservatively that morning up at Berthoud.


Hope we are wrong but very odd circumstances thus far
 
I agree that anyone flying in the mountains should get some training, how does one define mountain flying? Obviously flying through passes counts, but what about flying over the mountains? I try to put at least 4,000 feet between myself and the peaks. Assuming you have a capable enough plane to climb to altitudes that keep you above flying in the passes, does landing at a mountain airport like Eagle count as mountain flying that one should consider additional training?
 
Topper said:
I agree that anyone flying in the mountains should get some training, how does one define mountain flying? Obviously flying through passes counts, but what about flying over the mountains? I try to put at least 4,000 feet between myself and the peaks. Assuming you have a capable enough plane to climb to altitudes that keep you above flying in the passes, does landing at a mountain airport like Eagle count as mountain flying that one should consider additional training?
Click to expand...
For most flying around here, 4k above the peaks puts us in Class A. Service ceiling on my cherokee is 16k. I made it up to 15.5k once. Eagle is on the Colorado Pilots high altitude training course, as is Leadville (for the certificate), Glenwood Springs, Granby, Steamboat Springs. Usually not Aspen unless the pilot is willing to pay the landing fee. The New Mexico Pilots training flight concentrates on north NM and southern Colorado. Take a look at the IFR routes out here to better understand. And single engine pistons don't usualy fly IFR altitudes out here, unless you're a Pilatus or an F16.

As noted here many times, weather and winds are the critical factors, altitude is less important as long as you understand leaning and have an airplane that can handle 13-14k. 180 hp min unless approved by the CFI conducting the flight training. A number of friends with LSA frequently head to Granby for breakfast, going thru Corona/Rollins Pass as long as the weather cooperates. Coming home is often heading up to the CO-WY state line then east to avoid the hills and weather.
 
Topper said:
I agree that anyone flying in the mountains should get some training, how does one define mountain flying? Obviously flying through passes counts, but what about flying over the mountains? I try to put at least 4,000 feet between myself and the peaks. Assuming you have a capable enough plane to climb to altitudes that keep you above flying in the passes, does landing at a mountain airport like Eagle count as mountain flying that one should consider additional training?
Click to expand...
There are many aspects to 'mountain flying' and flying to Eagle puts one right in the middle of most of them. In the Rockies the high density altitudes encountered are a significant challenge for most piston singles and light twins. Eagle has a ground elevation of ~6,500 ft so altitude is a problem. Clearing rocks en route to a destination is another challenge because of aircraft performance and visual cues. Routes into and out of Eagle require clearing rocks and folks have been known to come up just a little short so yup, its a problem. Weather in the mountains is always a concern and Eagle has plenty of that to go with all the sunshine. Now EGE does have clear approaches and a hard runway surface so it doesn't qualify as a back country or obstructed mountain airport.

I think I've illustrated the point that EGE is a mountain airport and there are challenges associated with that which aren't normally encountered by many folks. I think folks that fly in the mountains back east probably just need experience with aircraft performance at high elevations. Learning about and how to deal with the challenges isn't a big deal, it just takes a little time and a knowledgeable instructor can facilitate the process. Like many aspects of flying a pilot can learn a lot on their own through books and online materials. Some practical aspects should be undertaken with an instructor in order to minimize risk. I still open the binder of material I got from the Colorado Pilots Association ground school from time-to-time. Sparky's book is on the shelf and it gets browsed every great once in awhile. When flying solo in the hills I'll practice stuff like a partial power loss or a canyon(ish) turn. There are things that every pilot can practice like picking their touchdown point while on the downwind and then hitting that spot. There are other things that are tougher to practice such as terrain clearance and predicting up- and down- drafts. In the summer most of us can practice getting climb assistance from thermals - it's a skill that I've used frequently in the mountains because it really helps with engine heat management. Downdrafts are another thing entirely - gotta know what to do to get out of them and it helps a lot to be able to predict where they might be. There are some very simple things like the suggestion to not fly in the Rockies on a summer afternoon (density altitudes and convective weather are problems) yet somebody ignores the guidance and manages to kill themselves and their passengers almost every year. Same thing goes for avoiding IMC in the hills yet people still fly into the clouds in the hills.

Well that's a lot of words. Not quite Nate like but a lot of words just the same. Training is good. Practice is good. Following the guidelines is good. Ignorance may be the mother of adventure but it is also the father of accidents. Stay proficient.
 
Topper said:
does landing at a mountain airport like Eagle count as mountain flying that one should consider additional training?
Click to expand...
Absolutely...in order to get there, you have to descend below the peaks, where all of the "mountain flying stuff" takes place. If you plan on taking off again, it becomes even more important to know where you're going and how you'll get there.
 
Maurice said:
Looking up the tail number, the aircraft is a 1960 Cessna
210A. That’s the first model that Cessna badged a 210, but it really was a 182 with an early retractable gear system that added extra weight. Engine is a Continental O-470, normally aspirated. All in all it’s a less capable airplane for mountain flying than a later 210.

I’ve flown over that route many times in perfectly clear weather in our T210N. I’ve been very glad to have a turbocharged engine (TSIO-520) and a built-in O2 system. In winter weather over the Rockies I leave the T210 in its hangar and take Southwest.

I hope they are OK.

Maurice.
Click to expand...
 

That would be a 1961 Model Year Cessna 210A, the second model year badged the 210. The FAA shows it as a 1960 because it got its original Airworthiness Cert in 1960.

The engine on the stock 1960 210 or 1961 210A was not a Continental O-470 (Carbureted Opposed - 230hp) but a Continental IO-470 (Injected-Opposed 470 cubic inch 260hp), yes normally aspirated.

The plane in question was a Riley Twin Turbo. It was *not* less capable than a later 210. The power to weight ratio on that specific plane made it a very capable mountain plane. It was turbo normalized, and properly maintained had a very high service ceiling - required less boost from the turbos to produce power than the later low compression models. Furthermore, the high-lift wing of the pre-1967 model year 210's perform exceptionally well and are a bunch stronger.

I have at least 150 hours in that actual plane, and have flown every model of the 210 and P210 except the 210J/T210J model.
 
KWL said:
That would be a 1961 Model Year Cessna 210A, the second model year badged the 210. The FAA shows it as a 1960 because it got its original Airworthiness Cert in 1960.

The engine on the stock 1960 210 or 1961 210A was not a Continental O-470 (Carbureted Opposed - 230hp) but a Continental IO-470 (Injected-Opposed 470 cubic inch 260hp), yes normally aspirated.

The plane in question was a Riley Twin Turbo. It was *not* less capable than a later 210. The power to weight ratio on that specific plane made it a very capable mountain plane. It was turbo normalized, and properly maintained had a very high service ceiling - required less boost from the turbos to produce power than the later low compression models. Furthermore, the high-lift wing of the pre-1967 model year 210's perform exceptionally well and are a bunch stronger.

I have at least 150 hours in that actual plane, and have flown every model of the 210 and P210 except the 210J/T210J model.
Click to expand...


Is this KWL from KLMO !!!
 
Stan Cooper said:
So, KWL, do you have any idea who was flying it?
Click to expand...
I don't have first hand knowledge. I would suspect it was the owner of record. The plane had been sitting on the ramp at Erie for several years. The guy I sold the plane to lived in or near Bend Oregon at the time, but had ties to this area. I recall him saying his sister was here. He had in recent years registered it to a nearby address.

The registration expired a few months ago, so he must have registered it in Colorado 3+ years ago.

I looked at the plane Saturday a week ago, two days before he departed. It had been moved to a spot near the maintenance shop, so I was figuring he was about to go on a trip.

The plane was a pretty well cared for plane when he bought it. When I looked at it on Saturday it looked pretty ratty, like it had been sitting outside quite a bit. I figured I would contact him and see if I could buy it back and bring it back to where it once was.

That was a pretty tough day to get across that route - gusts up to 75 knots in the passes were recorded at the time he was supposedly going through there. There was low vis and snow in the vicinty. Monarch Pass was clear, but the wind was gusting to 58 knots at 8:13 local time. Many people try to follow Monarch due to it being a well known highway pass, but it can be one of the worst to fly across.

The South part of the state seemed fairly clear from the METARs that I have looked at. I am wondering if they might eventually find the plane in the Collegiate Range. If he made it through the Kenosha pass into South Park without encountering nasty weather he could easily have gotten into trouble trying to get across the Continental Divide in that area. If you are not used to the winds and the Rockies there it could easily rattle a pilot to the point of turning around 180 deg and staying in a mass of down air all the way to the stall / ground.

If you get into the clouds up there on a high wind day and have not been there before, you will be in for the ride of your life. I imagine many people have given up thinking they were in an irrecoverable situation. Many seat cushion buttons have been plucked off small plane seats in that area in far less wind!

Here is to the hope that he wanted to get away and go to Mexico without anyone knowing!
 
Last edited:
KWL said:
I don't have first hand knowledge. I would suspect it was the owner of record. The plane had been sitting on the ramp at Erie for several years. The guy I sold the plane to lived in or near Bend Oregon at the time, but had ties to this area. I recall him saying his sister was here. He had in recent years registered it to a nearby address.

The registration expired a few months ago, so he must have registered it in Colorado 3+ years ago.

I looked at the plane Saturday a week ago, two days before he departed. It had been moved to a spot near the maintenance shop, so I was figuring he was about to go on a trip.

The plane was a pretty well cared for plane when he bought it. When I looked at it on Saturday it looked pretty ratty, like it had been sitting outside quite a bit. I figured I would contact him and see if I could buy it back and bring it back to where it once was.

That was a pretty tough day to get across that route - gusts up to 75 knots in the passes were recorded at the time he was supposedly going through there. There was low vis and snow in the vicinty. Monarch Pass was clear, but the wind was gusting to 58 knots at 8:13 local time. Many people try to follow Monarch due to it being a well known highway pass, but it can be one of the worst to fly across.

The South part of the state seemed fairly clear from the METARs that I have looked at. I am wondering if they might eventually find the plane in the Collegiate Range. If he made it through the Kenosha pass into the San Luis Valley without encountering nasty weather he could easily have gotten into trouble trying to get across the Continental Divide in that area. If you are not used to the winds and the Rockies there it could easily rattle a pilot to the point of turning around 180 deg and staying in a mass of down air all the way to the stall / ground.

If you get into the clouds up there on a high wind day and have not been there before, you will be in for the ride of your life. I imagine many people have given up thinking they were in an irrecoverable situation. Many seat cushion buttons have been plucked off small plane seats in that area in far less wind!

Here is to the hope that he wanted to get away and go to Mexico without anyone knowing!
Click to expand...
True, the locals know Marshall is the better choice over Monarch, and only about 5-10 min further south.
 
KWL said:
That was a pretty tough day to get across that route - gusts up to 75 knots in the passes were recorded at the time he was supposedly going through there. There was low vis and snow in the vicinty. Monarch Pass was clear, but the wind was gusting to 58 knots at 8:13 local time. Many people try to follow Monarch due to it being a well known highway pass, but it can be one of the worst to fly across.

...

Here is to the hope that he wanted to get away and go to Mexico without anyone knowing!
Click to expand...

Monarch is, as a famous electronics engineer YouTuber says, “A trap for young players.”

When I saw that they think he ran south, I also kinda secretly hope he was “disappearing” a different way than I suspect he did. But I won’t give it much of a chance, statistically.
 
John M and KWL,

Thanks for your comments about that specific airplane, which obviously you know very well. As you say, that’s a very rare conversion of an early 210 with very different performance. I’ve never flown one but I’ll bet it would be interesting.

Coincidentally I had some work done on our T210 last October by Vector Air at Erie. I remember an early 210 parked on the ramp. I walked around it and peeked inside. I didn’t pay much attention, but it looked like it needed some TLC. I wonder if it was this airplane.

Maurice.
 
Last edited:
Maurice said:
John M and KWL,


Coincidentally I had some work done on our T210 last October at the Erie airport. I remember an early 210 parked on the ramp. I walked around it and peeked inside but didn’t pay much attention. I wonder if it was this airplane.
Click to expand...
It was one of those planes that you don't forget seeing - was previously owned by a National Airlines pilot, and had their livery - an orange and yellow sun on the tail, matching orange and yellow stripes!
 
As for the question of mountain flying and training, I'm a believer. The only true "mountain" flying I've done was going into Angel Fire for skiing, and I had a very experienced mountain flier, well familiar with both route and field, in the right seat. Very glad I did.

And sometimes I like to look at approach plates for true mountain fields. Sobering stuff for a flatlander like me.

From what we know thus far (admittedly, sketchy, but more than nothing), the subject pilot certainly stacked the deck against himself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top