Instrument Approach Speed

C

Casey Peneny

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CPenney
I know that a general rule is 500fpm at 90knots will keep you close on the glideslope for most light aircraft. In my Cessna 150G on approaches I have been doing the 500/90 which is about 103 mph. This in my opinion seems fast to me for that plane since Va is 109mph and I land at 60mph. In a retractable I would just fly at the speed I can put the gear down and the first notch of flaps.

My main question is what speed do you recommend shooting an instrument approach in a C150 (No flaps used). If I slow down past 100 mph indicated approach usually tells me to speed up. Any suggestions? Thanks!
 
I was using 75 kts in a 172B no flaps, which probably has similar landing speeds to the 150. On a timed localizer, I could just split the difference between the 60kt and 90kt times.
 
Are you landing out of these approaches, and are you wanting to use flaps when you land?

100 mph approach transitioning to land is certainly not a stabilized approach in a 150. I'd use something 10-15 mph below the top of the white arc if I was going for a stabilized approach.

ATC and whoever is behind you will appreciate you keeping your speed up, but you need to do,what you need to do to be safe.
 
Casey Peneny said:
I know that a general rule is 500fpm at 90knots will keep you close on the glideslope for most light aircraft. In my Cessna 150G on approaches I have been doing the 500/90 which is about 103 mph. This in my opinion seems fast to me for that plane since Va is 109mph and I land at 60mph. In a retractable I would just fly at the speed I can put the gear down and the first notch of flaps.

My main question is what speed do you recommend shooting an instrument approach in a C150 (No flaps used). If I slow down past 100 mph indicated approach usually tells me to speed up. Any suggestions? Thanks!
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Whatever you are comfortable with. You can always tell approach "unable", so they either let you continue or break you out for resequencing. They can't make you fly at a speed you are uncomfortable at.
 
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Thanks everyone! I will use 75kts Last question what do you think of having flaps at 10 at FAF in a 150? I usually land with just 10 but some approaches have long final approach segment for a 150 to drag flaps.
 
150kts to the IAF, drop first flaps and hit 100kts once established, drop last set of flaps once assured and hit runway at 80kts unless really windy then I add a few kts. But I have an AOA so don’t really look at the numbers, I let it do all the work.
 
mulligan said:
150kts to the IAF, drop first flaps and hit 100kts once established, drop last set of flaps once assured and hit runway at 80kts unless really windy then I add a few kts. But I have an AOA so don’t really look at the numbers, I let it do all the work.
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150kts? Maybe the OP has one of those turbo 150s:)
 
Casey Peneny said:
I know that a general rule is 500fpm at 90knots will keep you close on the glideslope for most light aircraft. In my Cessna 150G on approaches I have been doing the 500/90 which is about 103 mph. This in my opinion seems fast to me for that plane since Va is 109mph and I land at 60mph. In a retractable I would just fly at the speed I can put the gear down and the first notch of flaps.

My main question is what speed do you recommend shooting an instrument approach in a C150 (No flaps used). If I slow down past 100 mph indicated approach usually tells me to speed up. Any suggestions? Thanks!
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i suggest you shoot approaches at all kinds of speeds, you need to be able to shoot the approach at cruise speed down to Vref. you need all of them in your bag of tricks. if you cannot fly an approach in a 150 and slow down at the last minute to land you will never be able to get into a bigger airport with lots of traffic.

bob
 
Depends on the traffic situation. 75 kts isn’t going to do the controller any favors at a busy Class D, C, B. Also, If you’re doing practice approaches, you can’t disrupt other VFR / IFR arrivals either, so be prepared for some holding.

I used to work 100 kt military helos mixed in on approach with 140+ kt fighters. That’s pretty doable and allows minimum delay for all involved. 75 kts at a busy field? Be prepared for delays to get your training in.
 
unsafervguy said:
i suggest you shoot approaches at all kinds of speeds, you need to be able to shoot the approach at cruise speed down to Vref. you need all of them in your bag of tricks. if you cannot fly an approach in a 150 and slow down at the last minute to land you will never be able to get into a bigger airport with lots of traffic.

bob
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First of slowing down 49 mph from approach speed of 109 mph (approximately 90kts)which I have been flying) to less 60mph at a decion height of 200’ is not the best thing to be doing no matter the plane, let alone it is an unstable approach.
kgruber said:
Flaps.................why would you in a 150?
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Because why would you not use them. Yes you can land without them but it is nice to not have the trim wheel almost pegged nose up.
 
With the speed and drag a C150 has, shoot the thing near VNE for that matter, runway insight pull the power and you'll slow down fast enough lol

I've shot approaches in my A185 at 120kts, really isn't too hard to slow down, especially if this is a huge 4,000' runway or something


Casey Peneny said:
Because why would you not use them. Yes you can land without them but it is nice to not have the trim wheel almost pegged nose up.
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Yup, if you're going to crash, crash slow.
 
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Other than an emergency, there is never a need for any flap in a Cessna 150. Takeoff distances are ALWAYS further than landing with no flap.
 
kgruber said:
Other than an emergency, there is never a need for any flap in a Cessna 150. Takeoff distances are ALWAYS further than landing with no flap.
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Yabbut...what if you want to make the turnoff at the threshold so the heavy behind you can land? ;)
 
kgruber said:
Other than an emergency, there is never a need for any flap in a Cessna 150. Takeoff distances are ALWAYS further than landing with no flap.
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Maybe under the same conditions, but certainly not under different conditions.
 
Velocity173 said:
Depends on the traffic situation. 75 kts isn’t going to do the controller any favors at a busy Class D, C, B. Also, If you’re doing practice approaches, you can’t disrupt other VFR / IFR arrivals either, so be prepared for some holding.
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OP profile says Montana.
 
If you're talking about a "glideslope" (ILS or LPV) then you want to be in the landing configuration at the glide slope intercept. I can buzz through the rest of the approach faster, but I want to be at 80 knots with the gear down in the Navion when I get the intercept and I hold that until I'm over the fence. On non-precision approaches, I like to be in landing config when I hit the MDA (I'm a dive and driver). The gear speed on the Navion is only 87 knots.

This works well with draggy planes that have no problem slowing down (you can scream through the rest of the approach in the Navion or a 172 at near full throttle if you like). If you have a slicker plane, you probably want to plan slowing down faster.

200AGL is not a good place to be making major configuration changes. The good news is that most ILSs are to runways that are way longer than most of these planes need so if you are rounding out a bit fast, you still have plenty of room with the float.
 
kgruber said:
Other than an emergency, there is never a need for any flap in a Cessna 150. Takeoff distances are ALWAYS further than landing with no flap.
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Isn't it better to touch down with less energy?

Shy of ice buildup or a crazy crosswind, I always land with full flaps.
 
James331 said:
Isn't it better to touch down with less energy?

Shy of ice buildup or a crazy crosswind, I always land with full flaps.
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kgruber said:
Other than an emergency, there is never a need for any flap in a Cessna 150. Takeoff distances are ALWAYS further than landing with no flap.
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Yup. I teach full flap landings, as I'm sure most CFIs do, but also expose students to partial and no flap landings as well. POH also recommends full flap for reason James wrote.
 
Learn your numbers. That is, what rpm will deliver what airspeed in what configuration. That way, you can set your aiplane up and it will fly the same speed, same climb or descent every time. Makes for a nice stabilized approach or departure, rather than chasing needles. In my airplane 21"/2400 delivers 120kts level, the spped I fly my approaches. Reducing to 18"/2400 gives me 120kts and a 500ft/min descent. 21"/2400 and "gear down to go down" gives me 120 and a 500fpm descent. Every time. I don't use flaps until inside the FAF.
In a 150, you can make up a card with numbers and configs for a slow, regular and fast approach, and know what to expect.
 
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Casey Peneny said:
I know that a general rule is 500fpm at 90knots will keep you close on the glideslope for most light aircraft. In my Cessna 150G on approaches I have been doing the 500/90 which is about 103 mph. This in my opinion seems fast to me for that plane since Va is 109mph and I land at 60mph. In a retractable I would just fly at the speed I can put the gear down and the first notch of flaps.

My main question is what speed do you recommend shooting an instrument approach in a C150 (No flaps used). If I slow down past 100 mph indicated approach usually tells me to speed up. Any suggestions? Thanks!
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Why is Va important in this context?

I flew a practice ILS in a 150 at Vno and unfortunately it was still too slow for the traffic behind me.
 
I've always been taught to keep speed up on approaches as much as practical. If you are in actual IMC and flying an approach you're playing with the big boys.. even if not airliners you'll likely have some bigger and faster planes behind you. It's a courtesy both to ATC and the folks behind you not to drag it in at 75 knots when you're still miles from the airport

Heck, flying into Oakland a few weeks ago I was cooking at 165 knots indicated on the approach and ATC was still asking me to "keep your speed up as much as you can." Almost immediately after turning off the taxiway we had a Spirit touch down behind

At a sleepy class D airport on a VFR day, sure.. 80-90 knots is a more realistic speed, at least in a PA28.. but you should be comfortable with a wider envelope to cope with real world crap
 
Tantalum said:
I've always been taught to keep speed up on approaches as much as practical. If you are in actual IMC and flying an approach you're playing with the big boys.. even if not airliners you'll likely have some bigger and faster planes behind you. It's a courtesy both to ATC and the folks behind you not to drag it in at 75 knots when you're still miles from the airport

Heck, flying into Oakland a few weeks ago I was cooking at 165 knots indicated on the approach and ATC was still asking me to "keep your speed up as much as you can." Almost immediately after turning off the taxiway we had a Spirit touch down behind

At a sleepy class D airport on a VFR day, sure.. 80-90 knots is a more realistic speed, at least in a PA28.. but you should be comfortable with a wider envelope to cope with real world crap
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Only comment on that, I'd rather get delay vectors or do a lap or two in the hold than have a greenhorn IFR pilot speed up a approach beyond his comfort level, not just from the human life and property damage side of the matter, but if you get behind and biff it in, I'm probably not even going to be able to shoot the approach now.

So yeah, keep the speed up IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE doing so, but if you're not comfy don't let yourself get pushed into doing something you don't feel good about. That ain't helping you, and has the potiental to also cause more issues for everyone else too.
 
If you don't want to be put in the "penalty box," at least try for 100+ on the final approach.

Plus, it is MUCH easier on the airplane/pocketbook to land without flaps. Plus2, it is much easier to go around without flaps.

The 150 is just a 120 with flaps. They are there for training student pilots, and have no place other than for landing in trees.
 
I’m good staying in Cat A, so I’ll stick with flaps 10 and 90 knots.
 
Casey Peneny said:
First of slowing down 49 mph from approach speed of 109 mph (approximately 90kts)which I have been flying) to less 60mph at a decion height of 200’ is not the best thing to be doing no matter the plane, let alone it is an unstable approach.

Because why would you not use them. Yes you can land without them but it is nice to not have the trim wheel almost pegged nose up.
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Thanks for the flying lesson... I guess I never learned to fly in the real world of IFR in the 12000 hrs and three type ratings I've accumulated.

Next time lax tells me to maintain 210 to the marker I will tell them unable.


Sorry, you need to be able to fly your airplane in various speeds and configurations. One size does not fit all in flying.

Bob
 
unsafervguy said:
Thanks for the flying lesson... I guess I never learned to fly in the real world of IFR in the 12000 hrs and three type ratings I've accumulated.

Next time lax tells me to maintain 210 to the marker I will tell them unable.


Sorry, you need to be able to fly your airplane in various speeds and configurations. One size does not fit all in flying.

Bob
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You don't have to be rude
 
unsafervguy said:
Thanks for the flying lesson... I guess I never learned to fly in the real world of IFR in the 12000 hrs and three type ratings I've accumulated.

Next time lax tells me to maintain 210 to the marker I will tell them unable.


Sorry, you need to be able to fly your airplane in various speeds and configurations. One size does not fit all in flying.

Bob
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If you want to make an apples to apples comparison, what would you do if LAX told you to maintain cruise speed to DA? "You need to be able to fly your airplane in various speeds and configurations"?
 
Casey Peneny said:
You don't have to be rude
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When a low time pilot asks for information and someone with a lot of experience explains that you need to train to fly at a variety of speeds and hone your flying skills not just fly at one speed, and you then lecture them about stabilized approaches, that's rude.
 
unsafervguy said:
Thanks for the flying lesson... I guess I never learned to fly in the real world of IFR in the 12000 hrs and three type ratings I've accumulated.

Next time lax tells me to maintain 210 to the marker I will tell them unable.


Sorry, you need to be able to fly your airplane in various speeds and configurations. One size does not fit all in flying.

Bob
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Crazy how you have 12k hours but no common sense, guess even a blind squirrel finds that proverbial nut.

I don't have your hours, but as a working pilot I have enough neurons to rub together to know a 172 biffing it when stressed on final will slow my mission down much more than him shooting the approach at 90kts.

Personally I can shoot it at ether side of the planes envelope, maybe you don't have those skills yet, which is strange, but I'm happy to make up or scarifice speed for a lower time dude in IMC.
 
James331 said:
Crazy how you have 12k hours but no common sense, guess even a blind squirrel finds that proverbial nut.

I don't have your hours, but as a working pilot I have enough neurons to rub together to know a 172 biffing it when stressed on final will slow my mission down much more than him shooting the approach at 90kts.

Personally I can shoot it at ether side of the planes envelope, maybe you don't have those skills yet, which is strange, but I'm happy to make up or scarifice speed for a lower time dude in IMC.
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I don't think you have any working neurons that's why I ignore you. The op asked what speed to fly an approach. There is no one answer to that question. You need to train to fly approaches at all different speeds so you will feel comfortable flying a fast approach if need, or slow if you have to.
I would never advocate flying an approach ate cruise to da, but flying one at cruise if the ceiling is 800ft, on a 9000 ft runway? Fly the approach fast if needed, break out, slowdown and land. B not a problem if needed.
The point is you train to fly the entire envelope so you are not stressed when you have to change from the normal way you fly.
 
James331 said:
Personally I can shoot it at ether side of the planes envelope, maybe you don't have those skills yet, which is strange, but I'm happy to make up or scarifice speed for a lower time dude in IMC.
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I usually have been pointing the nose down and going 109mph on the approaches which is about 20 mph above what I cruise at due to the stol kit I have on the C150. I was just really wandering if I should slow down more on approach. Thanks!
 
unsafervguy said:
I don't think you have any working neurons that's why I ignore you. The op asked what speed to fly an approach. There is no one answer to that question. You need to train to fly approaches at all different speeds so you will feel comfortable flying a fast approach if need, or slow if you have to.
I would never advocate flying an approach ate cruise to da, but flying one at cruise if the ceiling is 800ft, on a 9000 ft runway? Fly the approach fast if needed, break out, slowdown and land. B not a problem if needed.
The point is you train to fly the entire envelope so you are not stressed when you have to change from the normal way you fly.
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Oh cupcake, I guess seeing how we launched chimps into space it's not too surprising how you don't get this.

Just wondering, when was the last time you cleaned a human carcass off the ground with the snow shovel?

If greenhorn in the 172 deems he shouldn't shoot that approach over 85kts, I'm more fine with that than pressuring him out of where he feels safe.
 
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