Best way to drop the news

LowanSlow

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Jul 27, 2015
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Missouri
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Midmoflyer
Hello all, need the advice from the seasoned GA mechanics, little background, im a new A&P (graduated school in 2017) but worked through highschool with a very well respected GA A&P-IA and am in a position where im managing the maintenance on quite a few airplanes, everything from a piper warrior to a couple Global Express’ (part 91 & 135), unfortanetly i do less wrenching than i had planned on. My question is ive got a guy im really trying to help but i feel his airplane is no where near airworthy yet it has a current annual, between the spinner having major cracks to the brake resevoir being completly dry with leaks all through the system and multiple other issues. I am trying to see how everyone else has went about telling owners that they need to drop a chunk of cash to bring it up to snuff, ive already told the guy of multiple items i find unairworthy. Do you all send the list of unairworthy items through email to prove that you stated the unairworhty issues or in person, letters, multiple witnesses? Probably over thinking it much and sound like a complete FNG (guess i am) but not the usual situation i encounter and trying to cover my rear if anything ever happened to this plane/pilot. Thanks in advance✈️
 
If it costs more than 50 bucks, he will tell you that it is in annual and airworthy, and for you to go to hell. He knows when it is safe to fly..

There ain't no way to CYA, you broke his aircraft.
 
So I can tell you as an owner how I'd like it...

If it's several things I'd like a list of what the issue is and what the estimated cost to repair is. In my case I'd probably want to come in and look it over with you and discuss it as well or at least talk through it over the phone. I like to actually come in during annuals or any major repairs if for no other reason than to see everything underneath all the covers.
 
In all seriousness do you have a work order ?
 
I'm curious why you need to tell the owner anything?

The simple, passive approach is to not work on this guy's airplane and let someone else put their certificate on the line. There are a number of planes around my home base I really want nothing to do with.
 
I'm curious why you need to tell the owner anything?

The simple, passive approach is to not work on this guy's airplane and let someone else put their certificate on the line. There are a number of planes around my home base I really want nothing to do with.

Not usually the plane's fault. I suspect you really meant there are a number of owners around the home base you really want nothing to do with.
 
No work order Tom, really probably wont do the work off of my gut instinct but i guess my other concern is that even though ive told the owner i find multiple items unairworthy and he has told me he agrees, he still flies the aircraft, again just hate to see the thing run off a runway or any other issue arise that he could come back and say i told him it was all airworthy even though my names not in the books for anywork. Should i even make a workscope for the guy or just leave it at previous conversation of the items. Never hurts to ask the much more experienced.
 
I am an owner. It sounds like you want to help the guy out. Here’s what I think a helpful kind of guy would do for me - let me know what he’s worried about on my aircraft for my safety’s sake and that even if I don’t use him, I should get some stuff addressed. I would like a list of his opinions, and a priority, and an estimate. That’s the least someone could do for me and my family, including ensuring the highest value of my plane for them to more easily recoup should I not see the next sunrise. But that’s just me and I’m wierd.

Hopefully that also takes care of either/or/both your ethical and legal duties to act, as a side benefit.
 
Not usually the plane's fault. I suspect you really meant there are a number of owners around the home base you really want nothing to do with.

Sometimes it's a combination of both but I know what you're getting at. :)
 
No work order Tom, really probably wont do the work off of my gut instinct but i guess my other concern is that even though ive told the owner i find multiple items unairworthy and he has told me he agrees, he still flies the aircraft, again just hate to see the thing run off a runway or any other issue arise that he could come back and say i told him it was all airworthy even though my names not in the books for anywork. Should i even make a workscope for the guy or just leave it at previous conversation of the items. Never hurts to ask the much more experienced.

If you're not doing any work on this airplane (requiring a logbook entry) and all your communication regarding the questionable items is verbal, how could you be held accountable for anything? Seems to me you're being a bit paranoid.

I know a guy that sounds very similar to your guy. Lets just say that I don't hear from him too often anymore because he knows how I feel about his practices (unsupervised maintenance and flying unairworthy airplanes) and the condition of his airplane and that I don't have interest in being involved with his kinds of activities. I don't feel I'm taking any risk discussing things with him when he does call or stop by however, and he is free to interpret our conversation however he wants.
 
...My question is ...about telling owners that they need to drop a chunk of cash to bring it up to snuff,

Thanks in advance

Bob, I’m not really interested in working on your plane.
 
Mondster, you are probably right, i like to help people any way i can in this industry as ive had alot of help on my end, but also dont want to ruin a reputation over a situation that may or may not never be an issue anyways as this industry is pretty close knit. I do appreciate y’alls advice.
 
Sometimes it's a combination of both but I know what you're getting at. :)

On further reflection I can understand there are probably airplanes so neglected by such owners they are now beyond salvation in the current GA environment.
 
"I like you and want to help you with your airplane, but you have to understand that there is a certain standard that has to be maintained if we are going to be successful in this relationship. Are you ok with that? Good. I will lay out for you in writing what things on your airplane need attention with an estimate for cost and time... including alternatives (ie approved repair vs new replacement) and await your approval/down payment." (shakes hand)
 
Sometimes you just have to walk away.

Good owner told by a mechanic verbally that the mechanic is concerned about something — will listen and ask questions — and if they’re at all mechanically inclined they will know the difference between a cracked piece of plastic fairing and a cracked spinner plate and the forces involved and the seriousness of each.

They’ll likely ask to put the airplane in the shop and start working with the mechanic to get the dangerous stuff done first, maybe defer some stuff for later, and get their airplane back into reasonable shape over time with an agreed plan.

And probably be quietly ticked at whoever signed it off with serious problems.

Bad owner will prefer you keep it all verbal or to yourself, and might go shop around for someone ultra cheap to address a few things. Anyone who’ll conveniently ignore other things. If they bother at all.

Best advice I can give is keep it verbal unless he asked you to inspect it, and definitely keep your signature far away from his logbooks. That’s my owner side perspective anyway. You can’t really interject yourself into their mess unless they request it.

Your reputation as a straight shooter will get around via word of mouth and you’ll have the owners who want to be more like the first example than the latter one, keeping you busy enough you won’t need the bad ones.

We’re very picky about who we let work on our plane. If I don’t have a reference from another owner I know or someone else I trust, I get really nervous and protective of the airplane if I’m forced to put it into an unknown shop.

My co-owner can also be nervous when stuff happens on the road, and it’s not about the money, it’s about whoever is with the airplane when it breaks has to decide if they trust the person wrenching on it.

The good owners know what you know. The successful and safe folks in this biz help each other out and owners don’t force mechanics into making iffy decisions about airworthiness, as long as the mechanic isn’t making big fusses over non-airworthiness or safety items. Just inform and educate and most owners who care will want stuff fixed anyway. If we wanted to fly a clapped out rental, there’s plenty of those on the flight line at every airport.

Bad owners just aren’t motivated the same as a proud and happy airplane owner for whatever reasons. Avoid engaging once you see they’re not going to participate in the process, seems best to this non-mechanic. It’s a shame if the idiots’ airplanes break while they’re flying them and even worse if they hurt a passenger with their neglect, but sometimes you weren’t engaged by them to inspect, and they don’t want your assessment anyway. Sad, but have seen it for a long long time.

Scariest flight I’ve ever done was in an owner’s plane who had that same attitude as your guy. Managed to get the airplane back to the hangar in one piece after emergency gear was rolled to the runway and the outcome of the flight was definitely in doubt. He put it away and never said a word about fixing it other than “that problem keeps coming up” and he didn’t acknowledge the three other problems during the flight at all. Total denial that he couldn’t afford to maintain his slowly failing toy.

Told my two non-pilot friends who flew with him often up until that trip to never get in his airplanes ever again, and explained to them, away from him in private, why I said that, and what I saw in his ownership behavior that was abnormal from other owners I knew.

They never did fly with him again, so I felt like I got a small win out of it that day.
 
I don't own so excuse me if the answer is obvious, but how does an airplane have a current annual if it is reeking with unairworthy items... didn't someone sign the logs indicating the airplane was found to be airworthy? I think the fault would fall on that license if something were to happen... I'm not sure what you are worried about if that signature is not yours...
 
Not in the aircraft repair biz but in my own biz, I have generated significant income from customers that others have tossed to the side.
They have been fired by my competitors and then come to me needing help.
I am then in a position to tell them how it is going to be (we are going to follow the rules and abide by my needs). I always discuss this professionally & courteously.
Most of the time it turns out well and I make 00’s, 000’s (and twice now, tens of 000’s) that my eager-to-fire competitors lost out on.
All through the frank and friendly discussion method I wrote three posts above.
 
Mondster, you are probably right, i like to help people any way i can in this industry as ive had alot of help on my end, but also dont want to ruin a reputation over a situation that may or may not never be an issue anyways as this industry is pretty close knit. I do appreciate y’alls advice.

I'm the same way, I give lots of free advice and enjoy teaching. The guy I was referring to in my previous post is a guy that I've worked really hard to help out, both with maintenance and flying. After a while you realize that there are just some folks with different philosophies and that you aren't going to be able to influence their decisions, despite encouraging them to do the right thing.

Remember that the things that you feel are airworthiness issues may not be a problem to the owner or whomever he is using to do his annual inspections. Those are going to be the people in trouble when something happens that warrants investigation, not you. I'd leave things alone from here on out, it sounds like you've already made the owner aware of the items you're concerned with. Continuing to nag him will probably only have negative results.

The best thing you can do is earn a reputation for being a good mechanic that has high, but reasonable standards. You're going to find that there are owners that shop around for the mechanic with the lowest standards because their plane is junk and they just want to get by or they perceive that the guy who works the cheapest is the most economical. You probably won't be favored by those guys but that's not necessarily a bad thing, because you probably don't want to work for them either.
 
"I like you and want to help you with your airplane, but you have to understand that there is a certain standard that has to be maintained if we are going to be successful in this relationship. Are you ok with that? Good. I will lay out for you in writing what things on your airplane need attention with an estimate for cost and time... including alternatives (ie approved repair vs new replacement) and await your approval/down payment." (shakes hand)

As an owner, and ex Air Force Mechanic I like this approach. It tells the owner in a good way what your boundary’s are without being obtrusive. It’s now up to the owner to make the next step.
 
It just depends on the owner. I'm literally going at it with my new plane. No squawk is left unturned. I want this plane 100% mechanically sound before I start doing upgrades, so I'm happy(well, maybe not happy) to find new squawks. I've more-or-less resigned myself to the fact that it's a 50 year old airplane and sooner or later I'm going to have to replace EVERY system on it. I just got my static system completely re-done, no component is the same, and that makes me happy to know I can rely on it a bit more than I used to be able to.

So to answer your question... It depends.

I like being able to take care of the airplane, I get joy and pride out of it.
 
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I did a lot of owner-assist/oversight but don't quite follow the situation and your involvement with the aircraft. Several questions:
im managing the maintenance on quite a few airplanes
Define manage. Since the aircraft in question has a current annual, what are you managing for this person? Will you be performing the next annual/100? Or, do you simple store the aircraft and these are things you notice as you walk by it every day?

ive got a guy im really trying to help
ive already told the guy of multiple items i find unairworthy
Help in what way? Is this tied into "managing" this aircraft? Or, are these items encountered during maintenance performed on the aircraft?

trying to cover my rear if anything ever happened to this plane/pilot
depending on above answers may have nothing to cover...
 
@Bell206, as far as this aircraft, no not managing it at all, its just a guy on the field that has reached out to me asking for help on a few items that he saw needed fixed, but i believe ive uncovered a few more items that i feel are unairworthy from just looking over the aircraft, i have not performed work nor made any entries which doesnt tie me to the aircraft through any work performed. Other than what the owner and i have talked about nothing in writing, feels more of an ethical matter on wether to be involved after what i found.
 
feels more of an ethical matter on wether to be involved after what i found
Good answer. But that is what a professional mechanic does when asked, get involved and fix things.

First, you have nothing to cover for. Advice and discussion are just that.

Second, there is no regulatory conflict on complying with just the items the owner wants to correct when there are other potential discrepancies. You are only held accountable to the work you performed--43.9(a)(4). A work request/scope can detail those items out if you so choose. But the entry(s) you make in the aircraft record do that too.

But to keep in line with your answer above, provide the owner with a written list of those other discrepancies just like an IA would if he signed off an annual with discrepancies. It's not required but it's the professional thing to do. Type the list, date and sign it plus keep a copy for your records. And move on to the next project.

You seem to be sitting top-shelf job wise for a "new" A&P but you have the right attitude.
 
I say use Dave Taylor's approach in Post #14. It puts the decision in the owner's hands. If you were to approach me with that I'd respond favorably. I'm interested in a relationship with my mechanic - I avoid the ones who are dictatorial and unwilling to involve me as a partner in keeping my plane safe & airworthy. Therefore, when my mechanic calls me and says "order this part" and explains what needs fixing, it gets drop-shipped to his front porch.
 
What I do is I always get a list together with some pictures and email the owner.
I sent over a picture of corrosion on a skin I was working on and the owner replied to just prime over it since he was itching to get the plane back together and fly it. I replied with "How do I sign it off as a legal repair?"
Needless to say parts are on order.
Just to be clear I didn't say that to get more work out of him. He was told that I rather stop work now and not get paid for the 16 hours I have into it before I put my name and license on something not done correctly.
BTW I only charge $45/hr. He knows what a service facility would have charged.
 
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