Advice for Flight Training

letsfly2018

Filing Flight Plan
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Mar 21, 2018
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Hello Everyone,

I'm new here...I'm about to graduate this May with a BA in something completely unrelated to Aviation, but I decided a while ago that I want to be a pilot. I know that having a degree is necessary to get hired by one of the larger airlines, so I have that out of the way, but will be graduating with a little more than 50k in student debt.

I'm hoping to start my flight training this summer, but the number of flight programs is overwhelming. I know that the cheapest option would be to do it at a local FBO, but I currently don't have the cash to pay for this out of pocket.

Ideally, I'm looking for advice from someone about good places to get all of my ratings completed where financing is available. Or, if there are good financing options to complete these ratings at an FBO. Any personal experience would be awesome.

Additionally, the terms of my student loan are such that ideally, to defer my student loan payments, I should be a "part-time" student. So if anyone has experience with using flight school to defer loan payments, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks!
 
Are you thinking of making this a career? AOPA has loan option I can think.


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Are you thinking of making this a career? AOPA has loan option I can think.


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Yes, I am planning on doing this as my career. Does anyone have any experience with AOPA's loan option for this?
 
Yes, I am planning on doing this as my career. Does anyone have any experience with AOPA's loan option for this?

I have seen them advertising about loans for flight training. No personal experience though. Read the medical forum on this board, get a consult from an AME, before signing or even filling up any forms


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Get a job in your field and pay off your student debt first. While you're doing that, put money aside for flight training. Don't double down on debt.

Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.

You'll sleep better at night.
 
What about using your existing degree to pay for your flight training?

Seems like just graduating after spending 50k without making any money on that investment than bouncing to taking a loan for even more, I mean if you're educating yourself to actually make money you're going about it all wrong.
 
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/march/03/aopa-offers-flight-training-financing

You might also look at
https://www.americanflyers.net/About/Loans.htm

You might want to consider some options other than borrowing, however. From what I gather from your post, you will start out $50k in debt. You're then going to tack on maybe another $20k to $40k in debt, depending on how you're paying living expenses, where you train, etc. So in rough figures, you'll finish flight training $80k in the hole.

You'll then likely work as an instructor for a couple of years while you build hours, earning something around $30k per year from which you'll have to service the debt and subsist on ramen noodles. You'll then sign on with a regional airline and make about $50k per year from which you'll still be servicing the debt, though maybe you'll be able to afford a hamburger or pizza once in a while.

You're already in a fairly deep hole; I recommend you stop digging and start filling. Some ways to do this:
  • Get a job in whatever field your BA qualifies you for and pay as you go for flight training at whatever rate your income allows. You may also want to subsist on ramen noodles while doing this to accelerate your training, but at least you won't be digging the hole deeper.
  • Join the military. Maybe you can qualify for flight training, but even if not you can earn some money, gain some experience, and take advantage of military funding options for education.
  • Earn a fellowship or teaching assistanceship and go to grad school somewhere that has an aviation program.
  • Marry money.
Think carefully about taking on more debt at this point in your life. As a professional pilot you won't earn much to start and you might not want to spend the next decade or two trying to pay off your loans.
 
Get a job in your field and pay off your student debt first. While you're doing that, put money aside for flight training. Don't double down on debt.

Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.
Pay off debt before incurring more debt.

You'll sleep better at night.

So, the plan up until now has been to go to Law School or Grad School, so just about any job I'm qualified for is working in a law firm making **** money...so in reality I'd rather spend the money on flight school than the 200k+ on Law School
 
You could also get a job working the line at a FBO. They often throw in cheap rentals as one of their perks. Where are you based?
 
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/march/03/aopa-offers-flight-training-financing

You might also look at
https://www.americanflyers.net/About/Loans.htm

You might want to consider some options other than borrowing, however. From what I gather from your post, you will start out $50k in debt. You're then going to tack on maybe another $20k to $40k in debt, depending on how you're paying living expenses, where you train, etc. So in rough figures, you'll finish flight training $80k in the hole.

You'll then likely work as an instructor for a couple of years while you build hours, earning something around $30k per year from which you'll have to service the debt and subsist on ramen noodles. You'll then sign on with a regional airline and make about $50k per year from which you'll still be servicing the debt, though maybe you'll be able to afford a hamburger or pizza once in a while.

You're already in a fairly deep hole; I recommend you stop digging and start filling. Some ways to do this:
  • Get a job in whatever field your BA qualifies you for and pay as you go for flight training at whatever rate your income allows. You may also want to subsist on ramen noodles while doing this to accelerate your training, but at least you won't be digging the hole deeper.
  • Join the military. Maybe you can qualify for flight training, but even if not you can earn some money, gain some experience, and take advantage of military funding options for education.
  • Earn a fellowship or teaching assistanceship and go to grad school somewhere that has an aviation program.
  • Marry money.
Think carefully about taking on more debt at this point in your life. As a professional pilot you won't earn much to start and you might not want to spend the next decade or two trying to pay off your loans.


Thank you, so for me its either Law School or pursue my dream of becoming a pilot, and I have come to terms with living on the bare minimum for the next 10 years or so (I'm lucky that my fiancee is in Medical School, so the debt will be large for a while, but paying it off in the end is not something we're too worried about). So for me it seems better to do flight school now rather than 200k+ for law school.
 
So, the plan up until now has been to go to Law School or Grad School, so just about any job I'm qualified for is working in a law firm making **** money...so in reality I'd rather spend the money on flight school than the 200k+ on Law School

Either way, why is borrowing your only option? Why not work while learning? Or earn a scholarship? Or work somewhere that pays for school (my company paid all my grad school expenses)?
 
So, the plan up until now has been to go to Law School or Grad School, so just about any job I'm qualified for is working in a law firm making **** money...so in reality I'd rather spend the money on flight school than the 200k+ on Law School
In other words the BA you have qualifies you for zero employment? There are already too many lawyers, altho like the commercial pilot and ATC world, many are aging out, so may be opportunities. But still, your plan incurs more debt, which is never good.

Get a job, any job, pay down debt, put more into savings for flying.

Yes, we sound like your parents. That's because we've all been there and know the pitfalls.
 
In other words the BA you have qualifies you for zero employment? There are already too many lawyers, altho like the commercial pilot and ATC world, many are aging out, so may be opportunities. But still, your plan incurs more debt, which is never good.

Get a job, any job, pay down debt, put more into savings for flying.

Yes, we sound like your parents. That's because we've all been there and know the pitfalls.

I have a few job offers, but none of them are terribly high paying and would allow me to spend money on flight training, so it would take me many years to finish. So, I guess I'll have to see how that'll work out. Thanks for the help
 
Either way, why is borrowing your only option? Why not work while learning? Or earn a scholarship? Or work somewhere that pays for school (my company paid all my grad school expenses)?

I guess this is definitely an option, but I was hoping to finish my flight training as soon as possible just to switch over into that realm of employment and spend as little time doing other things.
 
... so the debt will be large for a while, but paying it off in the end is not something we're too worried about...

You should be. In fact, beyond worrying about paying it off you should be trying to minimize or zero any additional debt.

This approach to financial planning is a large part of why the US median figure for retirement savings is only $5,000. Much of the US population will never be able to retire. Even worse, when they become too old and physically unable to work, they'll have no financial cushion to keep the lights on and food on the table. When an emergency hits they'll be bankrupt.

Doing the opposite, on the other hand, is a large part of why I can retire this afternoon if I want to (I'm 56) and live quite comfortably.

Decisions you make early in life will have a much bigger impact on your future than you may realize at the moment. Consider carefully and choose wisely.
 
You should be. In fact, beyond worrying about paying it off you should be trying to minimize or zero any additional debt.

This approach to financial planning is a large part of why the US median figure for retirement savings is only $5,000. Much of the US population will never be able to retire. Even worse, when they become too old and physically unable to work, they'll have no financial cushion to keep the lights on and food on the table. When an emergency hits they'll be bankrupt.

Doing the opposite, on the other hand, is a large part of why I can retire this afternoon if I want to (I'm 56) and live quite comfortably.

Decisions you make early in life will have a much bigger impact on your future than you may realize at the moment. Consider carefully and choose wisely.

Yeah, and I understand that, but at the moment, spending in the 40-65k range for a complete flight school training and getting a job with a regional airline in the next 5 years (I know what the salaries look like) is a lot more appealing than Law School (I am already accepted and after cost of living and everything, it'll be 150-180k not including the 3 years of school, taking the BAR and fighting my way into a job market that is only about 70% employment within 9 months of graduation)
 
I had to work for a few years out of college and save before starting my PPL and I plan on doing IR then CPL next. I had student loan debt, still do, but saved up enough while paying that off to begin my training. Now will most likely be borrowing some whether from family or the bank to finish my commercial training, but will be done with my PPL and start IR training without having to resort to that. It sucks to not dive straight into it, but I would recommend finding a job and using that income to offset the cost while you train. Take a year, study your butt off so you can dive straight into the written when you begin, and save up some money to be able to fly often when you finally do start.
 
[snark] Start a gofundme.com campaign [/snark]
 
Yeah, and I understand that, but at the moment, spending in the 40-65k range for a complete flight school training and getting a job with a regional airline in the next 5 years (I know what the salaries look like) is a lot more appealing than Law School (I am already accepted and after cost of living and everything, it'll be 150-180k not including the 3 years of school, taking the BAR and fighting my way into a job market that is only about 70% employment within 9 months of graduation)


Doesn't matter whether you choose flight school, law school, or become a plumber - do whatever career is most appealing. BUT, look for ways to get there besides taking on a bunch more debt.

BTW - keep in mind that an unexpected medical problem can wreck a flying career in the blink of an eye. Better have a Plan B ready to go.

I know you probably feel like we're preaching to you, and maybe we are. Maybe I sound like your parents, and maybe that's because I have two grown kids. But since experience is the best teacher, you might consider that a wise man learns from the experience of others. Much what you're hearing from us is a lot of cumulative years of life experience.
 
Welcome,hope you understand,that you will not make a considerable amount of money,while your breaking into aviation. It’s your dream,after weighing ,all the facts ,and you still happy with your choice ,go for it. Good luck.
 
  • Marry money.
Think carefully about taking on marriage at this point in your life. As a professional pilot you won't earn much to start and you might not want to spend the next decade or two trying to pay off your rich wife.
:D

FTFY
 
I'm new here
Welcome!

I'm about to graduate this May with a BA in something completely unrelated to Aviation, but I decided a while ago that I want to be a pilot
Do you want to sit in a jet all day flying commercial airliners, or do you just want to fly? Have you talked with regional pilots, looked at the bigger flying schools, and gotten to know both the private GA and commercial lifestyle? Making enough money in a "regular" job to enjoy flying as a recreational hobby has its rewards as well, and you get to keep flying a passion and a hobby without turning it "into a job"

Additionally, the terms of my student loan are such that ideally, to defer my student loan payments
This sort of makes me cringe, deferring the payments won't help pay the balance down, and I'm not sure of your terms, but if the interest continues to accrue then you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself.. eventually it will have to get paid off
Get a job in your field and pay off your student debt first. While you're doing that, put money aside for flight training. Don't double down on debt.
This couldn't be more true. It is going to be a horrible feeling when you're 26-28 years old, looking at $250K in debt (or whatever it is) and looking at a $50K yearly income while paying rent, buying food, and paying off a tremendous loan the size of a mortgage.. and, if at this point you decide flying is not right for you (or the industry takes a crap again) you'll have very limited (if any) work experience in another industry making it that much harder to get a non flying job

Welcome,hope you understand,that you will not make a considerable amount of money,while your breaking into aviation. It’s your dream,after weighing ,all the facts ,and you still happy with your choice ,go for it. Good luck.
Yup.. at the end of the day you have to follow your dreams. I just wonder if most people these days are better off making money doing someone else to afford flying recreationally

Growing up I was obsessed with the idea of working for an airline.. but the more I learned about it the less appealing it was. Making garbage money, sleeping in "crash pads" - not getting much choices in where or what you fly, the risk of an economic downturn hurting folks low on the totem poll, etc. I got to a point where if I could afford to fly as a hobby then in many ways that's more rewarding. I can get in a plane almost whenever I want, and, within reason fly where ever I want with whom ever I want..

Sorry, I am not trying to discourage you and pardon for the "negative" post, but given the amount of debt you'll incur and how much the industry has changed, it is something to really think long and hard about. I do wish you the best of luck though!! Keep us up to date on what you end up deciding
 
Welcome!
It is going to be a horrible feeling when you're 26-28 years old, looking at $250K in debt (or whatever it is) and looking at a $50K yearly income while paying rent, buying food, and paying off a tremendous loan the size of a mortgage..


By the way,....

That's usually about the time when your wife either

a) Decides she wants to stop working for a few years to have a baby or three (adding to your expenses as well)​
OR
b) Realizes that she can do a lot better than a guy who is deep in debt and has a below average income.​

Mine chose (a) and I was (happily) in a situation where it was financially viable. Which one will yours choose?
 
Thanks everyone!

I have a lot of soul searching ahead of me, and I appreciate the words of people who have been there and experienced it before.
 
Start your flight training this summer. Find a job, using your degree to earn as high as possible. Use your paycheck for flight training. Pay down debt if you have any left over, or take advantage of part-time student deferment. Build hours towards your airline goal. Don’t rush it. Lay out your schedule and finances for a 3-7 year window to get it done.
 
Welcome!


Do you want to sit in a jet all day flying commercial airliners, or do you just want to fly? Have you talked with regional pilots, looked at the bigger flying schools, and gotten to know both the private GA and commercial lifestyle? Making enough money in a "regular" job to enjoy flying as a recreational hobby has its rewards as well, and you get to keep flying a passion and a hobby without turning it "into a job"


This sort of makes me cringe, deferring the payments won't help pay the balance down, and I'm not sure of your terms, but if the interest continues to accrue then you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself.. eventually it will have to get paid off

This couldn't be more true. It is going to be a horrible feeling when you're 26-28 years old, looking at $250K in debt (or whatever it is) and looking at a $50K yearly income while paying rent, buying food, and paying off a tremendous loan the size of a mortgage.. and, if at this point you decide flying is not right for you (or the industry takes a crap again) you'll have very limited (if any) work experience in another industry making it that much harder to get a non flying job


Yup.. at the end of the day you have to follow your dreams. I just wonder if most people these days are better off making money doing someone else to afford flying recreationally

Growing up I was obsessed with the idea of working for an airline.. but the more I learned about it the less appealing it was. Making garbage money, sleeping in "crash pads" - not getting much choices in where or what you fly, the risk of an economic downturn hurting folks low on the totem poll, etc. I got to a point where if I could afford to fly as a hobby then in many ways that's more rewarding. I can get in a plane almost whenever I want, and, within reason fly where ever I want with whom ever I want..

Sorry, I am not trying to discourage you and pardon for the "negative" post, but given the amount of debt you'll incur and how much the industry has changed, it is something to really think long and hard about. I do wish you the best of luck though!! Keep us up to date on what you end up deciding

No worries, I appreciate the honesty!
 
Doesn't matter whether you choose flight school, law school, or become a plumber - do whatever career is most appealing. BUT, look for ways to get there besides taking on a bunch more debt.

BTW - keep in mind that an unexpected medical problem can wreck a flying career in the blink of an eye. Better have a Plan B ready to go.

I know you probably feel like we're preaching to you, and maybe we are. Maybe I sound like your parents, and maybe that's because I have two grown kids. But since experience is the best teacher, you might consider that a wise man learns from the experience of others. Much what you're hearing from us is a lot of cumulative years of life experience.

I appreciate the "preachy" aspect. It shows that people are passionate about not wanting to see me (a complete stranger) bite off more than I can chew, and that means alot. I think I will probably do as much as I can without digging myself into more and more debt, because while my dream is to be a commercial pilot, like you said, it would be a shame for it to go down the drain with a medical issue or something completely out of my control.
 
@letsfly2018 , You'll soon have a big advantage over many people...that college degree. With that degree you should be able to find a decent paying job...with benefits! Suck it up. Take that job. You'll forever be thankful for that job being on your resume. Then immediately start putting something into your 401K. Starting paying off your debt and for craps sake do not defer to pay interest only on your student loans.

And then get a part time job. Use that money from the part time job to fund your flight lessons. Save up chunks at a time (say $10K). Then commit to the rating and get it done. Hell, you might go several months without flying but you'll get there. On the way, you'll probably earn your CFI and that can then become your part time job and also those hours you are after.

You think the above is nuts? My wife did this very thing right after college. Got a normal job. Did one rating each summer. Then volunteered and flew whenever she could. She said she once went over a year without being able to fly. Hated it. But she made to the airlines doing that with no debt. When 911 hit and things sucked where did she go...back to that first job she got with her NON-AVIATION degree. She still does that job now, pays better than the airlines until just lately.

There's an episode of Seinfeld where Elaine is dating a resident doctor who's almost done. I think you should watch that one - privately - and think about it. I think the reason I found it so funny is that it seemed almost like it was obvious.

And you haven't talked medical yet. If you've been a drinking or doing drugs or have any mental issues, ADD, etc - being a pilot may be nearly impossible - right now! And you could take out another $100K to get all your ratings and hours only to have a medical issue a few years later and never be able to fly again. That right there is way too much risk to not have a fallback.

Or join the service. Now that you've got your degree you'd be a commissioned officer and that would open the door to becoming a military pilot.
 
I appreciate the "preachy" aspect. It shows that people are passionate about not wanting to see me (a complete stranger) bite off more than I can chew, and that means alot. I think I will probably do as much as I can without digging myself into more and more debt, because while my dream is to be a commercial pilot, like you said, it would be a shame for it to go down the drain with a medical issue or something completely out of my control.

Let ya in on another old guy secret. Life ... is out of your control. It’s going to throw you crap you NEVER thought would happen. Ever.

Financially you want a plan and a solid one, but you also learn it will have to adapt. Having a little savings for a rainy day is the usual method of dealing with something like the above. Not enough to live on forever at first, enough so that you can take a few months to adapt to the curveball you got thrown. And mainly so you don’t panic.

Losing a job when you’re paycheck to paycheck in massive debt is a lot different emotional feeling than losing a job with six months of living expenses in the bank that you never ever touch unless it’s a true emergency.

You can lower risk reasonably without making it impossible to take risks and at a young age you do need to take some.

Here’s a thought challenge. Could you envision a plan where you paid for both law school and flight training in cash? What would it take to get there? Dream big. Put it on paper. See how close you can get to hitting a big big goal and you’ll probably be way ahead of your peers.

How do I know? 80% of Americans never write out a written budget. And while some portion of that 80% really can track the numbers in their heads, the vast majority really can’t.

They think they can. In a game where single digit percentages really do count when compounding is involved.

Write something down. Something big. Something worth doing with your life. Then try to hit it and revise it when you don’t. You’ll go a lot further that way than following the herd who don’t.

Life threw me a lot of crap. And some great things too. My wife and I decided in our 30s to dump debt forever and in our 40s we are there. I co-own an airplane, four vehicles, a house, and manage to feed two large dogs and care for them properly. In my mid-40s I realized I could go part time at my job AND spend $20K on flying to earn instructor certificates.

If you decide to do it early enough, you’ll beat the hell out of me.

And now I sound like my dad who’s been gone five years this year.

Don’t think of this as “preachy”, think of this as insights from twenty years down the road. Something many people never get or if they do, don’t heed.

Opportunity usually looks like hard work so people don’t take it. Maybe being a rich lawyer and flying amazing airplanes isn’t such a bad life?

The only guy who can afford two WWII fighters at my airport is a lawyer. And from what I read, a damn good one. Tax lawyer. Mega-growth industry there, saving people from the IRS.

Sounds absolutely awful as a job to me, but he did it and makes enough to fly and maintain his own P-51. I can’t really argue with that as a plan. And I doubt he got there without one or stumbled into Tax law or being rated as the third best person in the country to call if dealing with the IRS. :)

No preaching. Just experience. Get after it while you’re young and have lots of energy. I don’t know when I slept in my 20s with three jobs, but not much. If I tried that today, I’d end up in a hospital.
 
@letsfly2018 , You'll soon have a big advantage over many people...that college degree. With that degree you should be able to find a decent paying job...with benefits! Suck it up. Take that job. You'll forever be thankful for that job being on your resume.


This is a bigger deal than you may think.

When I'm reviewing a stack of resumes, if I see one where the person went a long time between college and the first job it's a red flag. Maybe I'll call him, maybe I'll try to find out why. Maybe. If there's something else on his resume that makes him look like a superior candidate I might try a phone call. If I have other resumes that look just as good, though, the one with the time gap will go to the bottom of the stack and might never get a call.

Play to win. Do your best to be on the field for every snap of the ball.
 
The debt doesn't seem that big to me - what you have now is less than many new SUVs cost. I think/think some of the ab inito schools hire their students as CFIs when they reach that qual. My knee jerk reaction is to not delay your training, start now, get 'er done. There are oppurtunity costs with puttng it off, both in earnings and at the backend of your career. But I'm just a guy on POA, and nit a professional pilot. . .
 
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