Logging >50nm Cross Country Flights

[azblackbird]

get your license, build up 100-200 hours, then go off on the epic long cross country journeys.

Maybe we're from two totally different worlds, but I wouldn't necessarily call a 1500 mile loop an epic journey. That's 4 rest/fuel/bathroom stops and two easy 7 or 8 hour days loafing along in a decent trainer with very little fatigue. At least in this part of the country (the flatlands) it is. On a bike I can usually do a 1000 miles and be home or in a hotel room, then SSS and watch a little TV before calling it a day.

I just don't see what all the hoopla is about. Planes are made to fly distances. Whether I'm a newbie or an old timer, if the guy who I rent from and my instructor (or even if I have my own plane) have enough confidence in my flying abilities to let me fly for a couple days, then what's the big deal?

 

[Tantalum]

Hey everyone is different, if you are up to it and can find a CFI that will sign you off on it then more power to you. I just can't see the benefit of rushing into that. Getting your license and building a couple hundred hours first, possibly even in your own plane, seems like the more pragmatic thing to do

But to each their own! If you do end up doing that journey I look forward to a trip report

 

[Salty]

Maybe we're from two totally different worlds, but I wouldn't necessarily call a 1500 mile loop an epic journey. That's 4 rest/fuel/bathroom stops and two easy 7 or 8 hour days loafing along in a decent trainer with very little fatigue. At least in this part of the country (the flatlands) it is. On a bike I can usually do a 1000 miles and be home or in a hotel room, then SSS and watch a little TV before calling it a day.

I just don't see what all the hoopla is about. Planes are made to fly distances. Whether I'm a newbie or an old timer, if the guy who I rent from and my instructor (or even if I have my own plane) have enough confidence in my flying abilities to let me fly for a couple days, then what's the big deal?

Or you could spend those two long days flying to prepare for your test and take it. Then do whatever you want. What’s the big deal?

I don’t get the desire to avoid getting the license. If you have the money and time for a 1500 mile cross country, just get the license. It sounds like an anti authority hazardous attitude to me.

 

[WannFly]

o boy.. not again

 

[azblackbird]

Getting your license and building a couple hundred hours first, possibly even in your own plane, seems like the more pragmatic thing to do

What can I say, I'm an adventurer at heart. Geez, I'm mulling right now whether to fly back to PA and ride a bike back that I want to buy. I'm looking at the weather and my route as we speak.

 

[azblackbird]

Or you could spend those two long days flying to prepare for your test and take it. Then do whatever you want. What’s the big deal?

It's not a big deal. That's what I've been trying to tell you guys. What's the difference whether I fly 1500 miles pre or post checkride? Does having a fresh ticket in my hand somehow make me more prepared or immune to any mistakes or problems that may arise?

 

[Tantalum]

I'm an adventurer at heart

That's fine, most of us who fly planes just for the fun of it are, at least to some extent

I don’t get the desire to avoid getting the license

It is this part I don't understand, nobody is saying he can't ever do the trip, we just don't understand why it has to be done as an unlicenced pilot.

Money and time obviously aren't the issue here, it seems like this more just a general matter of principle here where he thinks he can do the trip without a problem and feels he should be able to without having to endure 40 hours of training and a few tests

 

[Tantalum]

Does having a fresh ticket in my hand somehow make me more prepared

Yes.

 

[dmspilot]

o boy.. not again

And I just took him off ignore a week or so ago because I thought he was over this topic.

 

[azblackbird]

Money and time obviously aren't the issue here, it seems like this more just a general matter of principle here where he thinks he can do the trip without a problem and feels he should be able to without having to endure 40 hours of training and a few tests

Ahh the mythical 40 hours of training... is it really ever enough? For some I suppose it is. For me, I'm going to suck every bit of knowledge I can out of my instructor (whether I have to pay for it all or not) before I feel totally comfortable flying long distances and playing around in B space.

Yes.

So an hour after becoming a newly minted and licensed pilot, I'm somehow safer and more knowledgeable than I was an hour before I took my checkride?

 

[Tantalum]

So an hour after becoming a newly minted and licensed pilot, I'm somehow safer and more knowledgeable than I was an hour before I took my checkride?

A license demonstrates that an examiner feels confident that you can exercise good aeroautical decision making and that you fly within tolerance of the PTS

I don't get why you'd want to do a trip like this without a license, there's much more to it than someone just asking if you feel comfortable

I trust weather considerations an important aspect of motorcycle trip planning, but what are you going to do when you're somewhere over the rockies or other inhospitable terrain and you hit inadvertent IMC, and you start picking up ice, what do you do then? Weather I have found is typically not that reliable in the air.. on a bike you can always pull over and find that hotel for the night. In a plane weighing your options can run out very quickly, and being able to make that kind of decision making is what a good training program, and subsequently a pilot, is all about

I'm sorry, but you will not convince me that 1,500 mile trip without a license is a good idea. Is it a guarantee death sentence? Probably not, but I don't get the desire to do this without a license

 

[Salty]

Ahh the mythical 40 hours of training... is it really ever enough? For some I suppose it is. For me, I'm going to suck every bit of knowledge I can out of my instructor (whether I have to pay for it all or not) before I feel totally comfortable flying long distances and playing around in B space.


So an hour after becoming a newly minted and licensed pilot, I'm somehow safer and more knowledgeable than I was an hour before I took my checkride?

I don't get the reason to avoid the training and validating that you have the skills before venturing out so far. If it's no big deal, then just do it and get it over with.

 

[azblackbird]

I'm sorry, but you will not convince me that 1,500 mile trip without a license is a good idea.

So an hour after I get my license I'm good to go on a 1500 mile trip?

I think that's the difference between me and many of you guys here. You're perfectly happy with just doing the minimums to get by. I don't do minimums! I'm going to train for long XC's, mountain flying, IMC, and playing in traffic while I still have an instructor by my side or am under his guise. If it takes me 100 hours to meet my personal requirements and objectives before I take a checkride, then so be it. I've read too many NTSB reports to just get by with the minimum hours or miles required. If that's what you guys are comfortable with, then so be it. I'm considered by many to be an excellent motorcycle rider, and my goals are to be the same as a pilot.

 

[azblackbird]

I don't get the reason to avoid the training and validating that you have the skills before venturing out so far.

See the post above @Salty ... hopefully you understand.

 

[Salty]

So an hour after I get my license I'm good to go on a 1500 mile trip?

I think that's the difference between me and many of you guys here. You're perfectly happy with just doing the minimums to get by. I don't do minimums! I'm going to train for long XC's, mountain flying, and playing in traffic while I still have an instructor by my side or am under his guise. If it takes me 100 hours to meet my personal requirements and objectives before I take a checkride, then so be it. I've read too many NTSB reports to just get by with the minimum hours or miles required. If that's what you guys are comfortable with, then so be it. I'm considered by many to be an excellent motorcycle rider, and my goals are to be the same as a pilot.

BullS#*T

It has nothing to do with minimums. In fact, it's the opposite. You are taking stupid risks to yourself and your instructor doing this before you've demonstrated the skills and knowledge needed to pass the checkride.

You are not learning more by avoiding the training and practical exam - where you should be learning even more about your gaps in knowledge.

Learning by experience is foolhardy. To be safe, you learn, then get experience.

Again, to me, you are demonstrating gigantic anti-authority / macho / invulnerability hazardous attitudes.

 

[mscard88]

So an hour after I get my license I'm good to go on a 1500 mile trip?

I think that's the difference between me and many of you guys here. You're perfectly happy with just doing the minimums to get by. I don't do minimums! I'm going to train for long XC's, mountain flying, IMC, and playing in traffic while I still have an instructor by my side or am under his guise. If it takes me 100 hours to meet my personal requirements and objectives before I take a checkride, then so be it. I've read too many NTSB reports to just get by with the minimum hours or miles required. If that's what you guys are comfortable with, then so be it. I'm considered by many to be an excellent motorcycle rider, and my goals are to be the same as a pilot.

I misunderstood, thought you meant once you had your PPC. I seriously doubt a CFI would endorse you for a 1500 mile XC as a student pilot. I wouldn't.

 

[BrianNC]

Years ago the "long xc" had to have at least 100 nm between three airports, so at least 300 nm total.

And I had to do that sucker twice. After the first one I didn't finish training, then a few years later I went to another flight school to finish and my instructor had forgotten to endorsed my logbook for it, so I had to do it again. Both of them ended up being over 400nm.

 

[azblackbird]

You are taking stupid risks to yourself and your instructor doing this before you've demonstrated the skills and knowledge needed to pass the checkride.

Like I said... we're from two different worlds. My goal is to minimize as much risk as possible by becoming thoroughly trained to do a 1500 mile XC, or to recognize icing conditions, or how to fly in the hills and handle rotors and waves while I'm still under the wing of a competent CFI. Not after I get my ticket!

Learning by experience is foolhardy.

WTF?

 

[azblackbird]

I seriously doubt a CFI would endorse you for a 1500 mile XC as a student pilot. I wouldn't.

But an hour after I get my ticket you would?

 

[Salty]

Like I said... we're from two different worlds. My goal is to minimize as much risk as possible by becoming thoroughly trained to do a 1500 mile XC, or to recognize icing conditions, or how to fly in the hills and handle rotors and waves while I'm still under the wing of a competent CFI. Not after I get my ticket!



WTF?

You are aware that you can continue to get instruction after your checkride, right?

Yes, learning by experience means you're too stupid to learn from others mistakes, and must experience them yourself before you can learn.

 

[Salty]

But an hour after I get my ticket you would?

An hour after you get your license you don't NEED a sign off to make the trip, and you aren't putting him at risk with a foolish decision you might make.

You are arguing from a position of ignorance, and refuse to accept reality. Go find an instructor that will sign you off for this and then come back. Please.

 

[azblackbird]

You are aware that you can continue to get instruction after your checkride, right?

So what's the difference learning all I can before a checkride vs. after a checkride? I'd rather learn as much as possible before I take a checkride than after. Seems like having more knowledge beforehand would make a checkride that much more easier. Wouldn't ya think?

 

[Salty]

So what's the difference learning all I can before a checkride vs. after a checkride? I'd rather learn as much as possible before I take a checkride than after. Seems like having more knowledge beforehand would make a checkride that much more easier. Wouldn't ya think?

You do understand the concept of check points, right. There's the written test, the first solo endorsement, cross country endorsements, practical exam endorsement. The idea is to keep you on track and make sure you're ready for the next step BEFORE you take it.

You want to not do any of the checkpoints until you are a master. Only we know from past threads that you are full of crap now, because you've already told us you know it all.

hazardous attitude city.

 

[Sinistar]

Wow I started a thread about eeking out a bare minimum X/C on a logging technicality and it turns into student pilot doing a 1500 X/C

No friggin' way any CFI is gonna endorse your log book for that student pilot X/C. How about a few reasons:

1.) He needs to fully review the entire flight, wx, etc. That would be a major PITA.
2.) He knows if you f up anything its 10,000% on him and the FSDO will come down on him with everything for authorizing something so non-standard and potentially risky.
3.) You really should do completely different back to back cross countries so you can review with your instructor, learn something and apply it on the next one. That's why he/she will want you to do 3 or so normal ones.
4.) Crazy high chance of being stuck overnight on a CC - once again very non-standard. Sure once in awhile a student pilot probably gets a overnight due to wx or mx screw up...but that's atypical.
5.) 1500nm in the planes you train in with stops easily exceeds a long summer day. Which means night flight. Unless you live in Alaska or Norway, most CFI's don't endorse students for night solo - why - because one f up later and its all on the CFI. And if its not night flight then its #4 - overnight problem.

...now throw in a rental. Unless the FBO (or friend) trusts you like 300%, when the actual day comes to rent for the epic 1500mile X/C as a student pilot I'm pretty sure that rental will fall through.

@azblackbird - I like your energy level regarding flying! But until you actually do the training you just don't realize what you are saying and all the crappy barriers you'll need to work through to get there. My wife is a great pilot. I flew with her several times. In the end it was just awareness compared to what the CFI's taught. There's talk and actions. Why not get in a damn plane tomorrow and start your lessons.

I've ridden motorcycles a fair bit. Right now I'm trying to plan a trip in the old 182 to Rapid City. Pretty much the same trip anyone from the Twin Cities would make by motorcycle to Sturgis. I can tell you there is way more going through my head trying to plan this X/C than that same motorcycle ride.

 

[Salty]

There's talk and actions. Why not get in a damn plane tomorrow and start your lessons tomorrow.

Yes 10,000 times!

Sorry for my part in polluting your thread.

 

[mscard88]

But an hour after I get my ticket you would?

An hour after you have your "ticket" I wouldn't have a say, you're a certificated private pilot at that point.

 

[Salty]

As all other posts, this will fall on deaf ears, but when I passed my checkride, my examiner handed me the paper, and said, "you've got your license to learn, keep learning". He also gave me a lot of other hints on what I needed to work on to be a better pilot.

 

[StevieTimes]

I can see the FBO not allowing it for liability reasons, it seems like you need a sign-off for crosswinds at first, and a signoff for your cross-country flights.

Yah that's the only issue I see, is that one would be putting the CFI on the hook for any mistakes or issues. Even with great planning, the best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley. After you get your LICENSE (not certificate, I'll call it what I want, it feels cooler to say I have my private pilot license), then yah, it's all on you if you screw up.

I can see the argument for allowing it; it's likely erring on the side of caution until competence has been demonstrated in all areas.

 

[mscard88]

Wow I started a thread about eeking out a bare minimum X/C on a logging technicality and it turns into student pilot doing a 1500 X/C


.

It's all your fault Brad!

 

[azblackbird]

There's talk and actions. Why not get in a damn plane tomorrow and start your lessons tomorrow.

The guy I want as my instructor is calving right now. Then he's got 2 other students on his schedule. He'll be ready for me in a couple months. That's about when I'll be ready after I get my ground school out of the way.

I'm done. Good luck on your trip to SD. Been there many times over the years and love the scenery. You'll have fun. Deadwood is my favorite and is where we always stayed when we were doing the Sturgis thing.

 

[WannFly]

So an hour after I get my license I'm good to go on a 1500 mile trip?

I think that's the difference between me and many of you guys here. You're perfectly happy with just doing the minimums to get by. I don't do minimums! I'm going to train for long XC's, mountain flying, IMC, and playing in traffic while I still have an instructor by my side or am under his guise. If it takes me 100 hours to meet my personal requirements and objectives before I take a checkride, then so be it. I've read too many NTSB reports to just get by with the minimum hours or miles required. If that's what you guys are comfortable with, then so be it. I'm considered by many to be an excellent motorcycle rider, and my goals are to be the same as a pilot.

This one I agree with you and I am on the same boat. I have my own set of personal minimums and I don’t care what other people think, after all it’s my arse up there. This is the same reason I don’t do night flights until I am at least half way thru my IR training and not venturing into mountains without mountain training. And to be honest I had the same q as u, my CFI won’t let me fly whin never the h close I wanted even if it was perfect WX, I believe it was because I was flying his ticket, but I often asked to myself, if he can’t trust my ADM so close to check ride how am I going to trust it 1 hr after my check ride?

It wasn’t a training flight but when I got my plane it was a 1200 nm XC to get here, so I have the first hand experience of flying one under a airline pilot as PIC. But even now I won’t make that trip since I don’t think as a VFR low time pilot I have enough skills to make a trip over cascades, if everything goes as per plan, I am pretty darn sure I can, BUT everything will not go as planned, that I am sure, so I am expanding my horizon 100 nm at a time. So far max I have travelled is 160 Nm one way and then came back after a 15 min break, next time it will be 300 and so on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Salty]

An hour after you have your "ticket" I wouldn't have a say, you're a certificated private pilot at that point.

At that point, both you and an independent "expert" would have agreed that he had the knowledge and skills to either make the long trip, or make the right decision to not make the long trip without more instruction.

(I know you know this, I'm just stubborn and have to spell it out)

 

[mscard88]

At that point, both you and an independent "expert" would have agreed that he had the knowledge and skills to either make the long trip, or make the right decision to not make the long trip without more instruction.

(I know you know this, I'm just stubborn and have to spell it out)

Reread what I wrote. I would not have a say once he had his PPC.

 

[Salty]

Reread what I wrote. I would not have a say once he had his PPC.

Reread what I wrote. I didn't say you did.

 

[Tantalum]

I swore I would stop replying, sorry @Sinistar that this thread went off the rails

You're perfectly happy with just doing the minimums to get by

..how do you get that out of all of us telling you that you need experience and a solid knowledge base in ADM before you jet out on a 1,500 mile trip. Just because you "feel ready" and are used to planning motorcycle trips does not equate over to the aviation world. In a previous reply I told you I postponed a 900 nm trip from San Diego to Montana because I want to go into a trip like that with a bigger experience base. Yes, I am IR, and yes I have been flying since I was 13. I can't follow the train of thought that suggests we all play to the bare minimum?

I don't get why you are fighting this. You have a lot of very smart people here with a ton of flying experience all telling you that it is a bad idea to do a 1,500 mile trip without a license, for various reasons.. "thanks for the feedback guys, I'll work through my training and PPL and get some experience here" seems like it would be a more pragmatic way to resolve this. I think Salty is right, this kind of attitude is one of the key things that examiners look for, and what has been proven time and time again to cause accidents. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but an attitude like this will eventually catch up with you

There's the written test, the first solo endorsement, cross country endorsements, practical exam endorsement. The idea is to keep you on track and make sure you're ready for the next step BEFORE you take it.

I feel like we're either being trolled, or this person has no idea what actually goes in the aviation world or what getting a private pilot license entails... that or the "I'm no safer a pilot one hr after vs 1 hr before my checkride" thing was an attempt at some kind of argument straw-man fallacy to prove a (very slippery slope) point that appears to suggest that licensed pilots are no more skilled than unlicensed pilots?? Either way it doesn't make sense. Yes. Getting your license makes you a safer pilot better able to handle challenges.

If you're an expert @azblackbird than prove us all wrong, in the time we've been posting about this for what feels like many months (maybe years?) you could have worked through at least a PPL, probably even an IR.. and be posting up cool trip reports for us to see

I feel like there's just a desire to argue here more than anything else

 

[Sinistar]

The guy I want as my instructor is calving right now. Then he's got 2 other students on his schedule. He'll be ready for me in a couple months. That's about when I'll be ready after I get my ground school out of the way.

I'm done. Good luck on your trip to SD. Been there many times over the years and love the scenery. You'll have fun. Deadwood is my favorite and is where we always stayed when we were doing the Sturgis thing.

I actually appreciate your encouragement regarding this trip!

If it helps any to illustrate a point, right now the odds of this simple 400nm trip actually going through are easily less than 50%. I know why. There's a good likelihood of IFR conditions and I am surely not IFR trained. My wife has over 3000hrs and her instrument rating and even she's hesitant. She's not IR current and our plane can not handle any type of icing conditions so anything IFR would be a epic mistake for our family. Now if we had 7 days with no obligations it would be much easier to cherry pick 2 VFR days.

I will admit the uncertainty of this longer distance trip planning drives me absolutely bonkers. But I now have the at least 4 experienced pilot voices in my head (wife, 2 instructors and a Vietnam era fighter pilot) saying "Plan everything. Check again and again and again. Sitting it out is safer than forcing it. There's another day...."

@azpilot , its actually not funny how 1 underlined statement regarding you starting your training can come across harsh. But here's the thing. Once you start it will be so dang cool. You'll be frustrated but at the same time hooked like this **** is crack. I think everyone here wants you to have that. You will then experience the layered training and understand why. And as others have said, you can always find an instructor to ride along. Find a young CFI who needs the hours and do that X/C the week after you get your ticket.

 

[azblackbird]

If you're an expert @azblackbird than prove us all wrong, in the time we've been posting about this for what feels like many months (maybe years?) you could have worked through at least a PPL, probably even an IR.. and be posting up cool trip reports for us to see

Alright... last post in this thread. To answer your question since you're not a smart ass, I've been on here for a year. I'd have probably already been licensed by now, if it wasn't for my wife getting sick with cancer and eventually passing away last June. During the last year taking care of her, and then trying to start a couple new businesses didn't leave much time to for me to get my head into the flying game. Sure I got on here and caused a ruckus and I probably will continue to cause a ruckus, but that's just me. I'm just plain ornery!

I sold my house, settled my wife's estate, and moved back up to CO and am now ready to start a new life. Flying will be part of that new life among many other things. So that's where I'm at right now. Will I continue to be an ornery SOB on this forum... probably.

 

[Sinistar]

Life's dealt you a crappy blow man

I can assure you that once you take that first lesson two things will happen: Your mind will be 100% on flying which means its not on other things. And time will race by which is a universal requirement for grief.

 

[Tantalum]

I sold my house, settled my wife's estate, and moved back up to CO and am now ready to start a new life. Flying will be part of that new life among many other things.

Sorry to hear about your wife, cancer is a terrible devil.. I'm familiar with all the crap it brings. Life sucks like that sometimes. Flying can be a great way to keep your head on straight and it's an awesome hobby

Our point is, get the license first and get it out of the way, it will be a great and liberating feeling after. Find a flying buddy or two local to you, and keep flying to build that experience up. It's totally cliche but you'd always rather be on the ground saying "I totally could have flown today" or "oh man, I totally could have done that trip" than somewhere 600 nm from home with a system that moved in faster than expected, terrain under you, ice building on the wings, and no real way out

 

[Salty]

For those that like to gawk at accidents, here’s the original thread where az taught us about how he was going to fly a “typical scenario” where he’d drop off some widgets for business and fly back home the next day for his solo cross country. Of course, he already has “unloggable” experience so it’s no big deal.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...try-am-i-allowed-to-plan-my-own-route.102148/