Logging >50nm Cross Country Flights

Sinistar

Sinistar

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I'm not rushing into the IR just yet, but like others I would like my XC time to count towards the IR requirements. So I took a close look at the sectional to see how many of the more "local" airports are > 50nm....crap! There are 5 which are just under 50nm.

So I start to thinking there is also an airport just 20nm away. A quick 10min hop in the 182. From that airport all the other airports are at least 50nm away. So can I do the following???

1.) Hop from my home airport to the nearby airport. Full stop but don't shutdown. That one will be logged later that night as a simple XC but definitely not logged towards a 50nm+ XC.

2.) Now while engine still running at the nearby airport, depart for one of these 5 other airports which are > 50nm from the nearby airport. Full stop at the distant airport and then fly direct back to my home airport (not the nearby airport). For this second flight there will be one leg at least 50nm from the starting point (the nearby airport). So I would then log that one separately as a XC of > 50nm from Nearby -> X -> Home.

....so is this breaking any rules. My goal is not to tally up another 30hrs of XC this way. However, I do want to try out each of these (new to me) airports and doing it this way would at least count towards the > 50nm XC requirement then.

I don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to return to your point of origin (#2 above). I also don't recall anything in the FAR requiring shutting down the engine as a requirement towards logging a flight. Am I missing something here?
 
Point A to point B has to be 50nm in a straight line is what I understand. For the first leg( someone correct me a f I am wrong). Say I fly from KFAR to KAXN, that’s loggable since it’s more than 50, then while coming back I stop at somewhere in between that’s less than 50 nm, then back to KFAR, the whole time is loggable.


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WannFly said:
Point A to point B has to be 50nm in a straight line is what I understand. For the first leg( someone correct me a f I am wrong). Say I fly from KFAR to KAXN, that’s loggable since it’s more than 50, then while coming back I stop at somewhere in between that’s less than 50 nm, then back to KFAR, the whole time is loggable.


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My understanding of Part 61 is that at least 1 landing point of XC has to be 50nm from the point of departure. So you could fly KFAR to KDTL (less than 50nm) and then KDTL to KAXN (still < 50nm) and still meet the rule since at least one of the points of landing (KAXN) is > 50nm from the point of departure???
 
Sinistar said:
My understanding of Part 61 is that at least 1 landing point of XC has to be 50nm from the point of departure. So you could fly KFAR to KDTL (less than 50nm) and then KDTL to KAXN (still < 50nm) and still meet the rule since at least one of the points of landing (KAXN) is > 50nm from the point of departure???
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Yep. You could land 10 times before you get to the airport that is at least 50nm from the point of departure.
 
BrianNC said:
Yep. You could land 10 times before you get to the airport that is at least 50nm from the point of departure.
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Cool, that's the way I read it to!

But what about breaking the flight into two separately logged entries...full stopped but without shutting down? Is there anything in the FAR other than having to actually land to called it a logged entry?
 
WannFly said:
Don’t think so
http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/logging-cross-country-flight-time/

The first leg has to be 50nm from point of departure



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Unless I am missing something, even in the posted article is just indicated at least one point of landing must be > 50nm from the origin of the flight. I guess I am reading this as the requirement being more of a "radius" than a "leg" and they also drew it as a radius to help demonstrate. Maybe I am still missing something?​
 
WannFly said:
Don’t think so
http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/logging-cross-country-flight-time/

The first leg has to be 50nm from point of departure .

Edit: actually it doesn’t say the first leg has to be 50 nm
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I don't see where it says that.

cross country flight time must include a landing at least a straight line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure.

It doesn't say you can't stop along the way, as long as it 'includes a landing at least a straight line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure.

I think you're reading something into it that's not there.
 
Hey Priyo...maybe you have more XC time than you think :)
 
I don't see anything under 14 CFR 61.51 either regarding logging hours and having to shutdown/deplane to call it a valid entry. Nor do I see any rules saying there can only be one point of departure per day.
 
Sinistar said:
I don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to return to your point of origin (#2 above). I also don't recall anything in the FAR requiring shutting down the engine as a requirement towards logging a flight.
Click to expand...

Sinistar said:
I don't see anything under 14 CFR 61.51 either regarding logging hours and having to shutdown/deplane to call it a valid entry. Nor do I see any rules saying there can only be one point of departure per day.
Click to expand...

You don't see or remember them because they don't exist.
 
Sinistar said:
I'm not rushing into the IR just yet, but like others I would like my XC time to count towards the IR requirements. So I took a close look at the sectional to see how many of the more "local" airports are > 50nm....crap! There are 5 which are just under 50nm.

So I start to thinking there is also an airport just 20nm away. A quick 10min hop in the 182. From that airport all the other airports are at least 50nm away. So can I do the following???

1.) Hop from my home airport to the nearby airport. Full stop but don't shutdown. That one will be logged later that night as a simple XC but definitely not logged towards a 50nm+ XC.

2.) Now while engine still running at the nearby airport, depart for one of these 5 other airports which are > 50nm from the nearby airport. Full stop at the distant airport and then fly direct back to my home airport (not the nearby airport). For this second flight there will be one leg at least 50nm from the starting point (the nearby airport). So I would then log that one separately as a XC of > 50nm from Nearby -> X -> Home.

....so is this breaking any rules. My goal is not to tally up another 30hrs of XC this way. However, I do want to try out each of these (new to me) airports and doing it this way would at least count towards the > 50nm XC requirement then.

I don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to return to your point of origin (#2 above). I also don't recall anything in the FAR requiring shutting down the engine as a requirement towards logging a flight. Am I missing something here?
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per my understanding, the whole flight time is XC as long as one leg had a straight line distance >50nm
 
Sinistar said:
Cool, that's the way I read it to!

But what about breaking the flight into two separately logged entries...full stopped but without shutting down? Is there anything in the FAR other than having to actually land to called it a logged entry?
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you'd be hosing yourself. just fly from home to the 10nm away airport, do a touch and go, and then go to one 50nm away, tnG there, then head home.

however, the INTENT of the XC requirement is to give you lots of time traveling through different radio sectors, weather, etc.

I would try to find a buddy and go do some 5-6 hour days flying a few hours each way to new places for lunch or whatever. make sure you're on flight following and working to hold precise altitudes as well. this will give you some experience in things that become helpful, i think, later.

disclaimer, i'm barely started in my IR training, so the CFIs here can chime in with more
 
MIFlyer said:
per my understanding, the whole flight time is XC as long as one leg had a straight line distance >50nm
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Incorrect. One can perform a cross-country with a leg that is 50 miles long, but never go more than 50 miles from the original point of departure. And going 50 miles from the original point of departure is required for it to count as XC time for the purposes of Part 61. The solution is to change the original point of departure, as OP suggested.

Example: Point A to B is 10, B to C is 50, and C to A is 40, then only B to C to A counts as XC and not A to B.
 
MIFlyer said:
per my understanding, the whole flight time is XC as long as one leg had a straight line distance >50nm
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I'm pretty sure this definition does not meet the requirement.

You could be right in between two airports one west of you 45 miles and one east of you 45 miles. Fly from your airport 45nm west, then 90nm back to the east airport and then 45nm back west to home...you have not met the 50mm requirement.
 
hmmm, you may be on to something sinistar. the Private experience says 50nm from original point of departure. i'm not sure if that's the only definition of CC in the regs. if it is, then you're right.
 
The rule is there has to be at least one landing more than 50 nm from the original point of departure. There is no general minimum requirement for a "leg length" or "first leg." Never been one AFAIK.

The only rule to specify a leg length is the long cross country to qualify for the private certificate in 61.109.

And yes, you can reposition the airplane to another airport and change your original point of departure. The repositioning leg is not part of the cross country tally. As others mentioned, no, you don't have to go through all those extra shutdown, start up, etc gyrations.

But...whenever I see someone who is willing to add some non-countable flight time just to avoid traveling further, I alway wonder why. Unless you are in an area which makes it particularly difficult, why not just find an airport further away? 75nm. 100nm. A beach. A good lunch spot. The cross country hours requirement for the IR (actually for all the Part 61 certificates and ratings) is at least partly to gain experience going somewhere outside the local area. And isn't going somewhere at least one why we want to fly and, especially get the IR?

I saw you want to visit these airports anyway. So stop there on the way to another further away or on the way back.
 
midlifeflyer said:
But...whenever I see someone who is willing to add some non-countable flight time just to avoid traveling further, I alway wonder why. Unless you are in an area which makes it particularly difficult, why not just find an airport further away? 75nm. 100nm. A beach. A good lunch spot. The cross country hours requirement for the IR (actually for all the Part 61 certificates and ratings) is at least partly to gain experience going somewhere outside the local area. And isn't going somewhere at least one why we want to fly and, especially get the IR?

I saw you want to visit these airports anyway. So stop there on the way to another further away or on the way back.
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This right here. Plane are for traveling, well most of the time anyway, so travel further and challenge yourself. I too don't understand why pilots are obsessed with flying the shortest distance required to meet the requirements for XC, fly further to different airspace, airports (Class B, C etc) and expand your knowledge. That's my take anyway.
 
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mscard88 said:
This right here. Plane are for traveling, well most of the time anyway, so travel further and challenge yourself. I too don't understand why pilots are obsessed with flying the shortest distance required to meet the requirements for XC, fly further to different airspace, airports (Class B, C etc) and expand your knowledge. That's my take anyway.
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Okay, you got me there no denying it.

These are the last 5 "local" airport I have never been to so I am definitely trying to challenge myself there. It just sucks that each one is like 2nm or 3nm less than the minimum 50nm radius. The total irony is that if I flew from my home base to each one...none of it would meet the 50nm rule :)

I do think I understand the spirit of the rule (with 1 exception). They want you to get radially far enough away from your starting point that you still won't be able to see visual references around your starting point.

Now a flight straight west, hitting 10 airports all in a line each 10nm apart will eventually meet the 50nm requirement. But you always had you last airport in sight and good references. So that one seems where you would want the thinking of "one leg > 50nm" to be part of the rule.
 
Sinistar said:
So I took a close look at the sectional to see how many of the more "local" airports are > 50nm....crap!
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Many people here at SEE and MYF fly south first to Brown, land, and then head up towards French Valley or one of the others to get them to be at least 50 nm away

However... there is value here:
mscard88 said:
I too don't understand why pilots are obsessed with flying the shortest distance required to meet the requirements for XC, fly further to different airspace, airports (Class B, C etc) and expand your knowledge
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50nm even at a modest 100 knots is a short trip.. and if you do want to build your knowledge and work towards the IR requirement, than it makes sense to do some 100-200 nm flights and get experience navigating new areas and different radio sectors. Not saying to go off on a 300 mile trip right away on your own, but it helps to expand that 50 mile trip, instead of going to the same 3 airports a dozen times you could try a couple spots further away. You'll also get more experience navigating different types of weather, etc.
 
mscard88 said:
This right here. Plane are for traveling, well most of the time anyway, so travel further and challenge yourself. I too don't understand why pilots are obsessed with flying the shortest distance required to meet the requirements for XC, fly further to different airspace, airports (Class B, C etc) and expand your knowledge. That's my take anyway.
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Yeah, but, but, but if somebody wants to fly more than 100 miles from their home base, they get chastised by the POA peanut gallery for wanting to go somewhere. WTF? :dunno:
 
azblackbird said:
Yeah, but, but, but if somebody wants to fly more than 100 miles from their home base they get chastised by the POA peanut gallery. WTF? :dunno:
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But but that's the POA way. **** them! :D

@azblackbird
Years ago the "long xc" had to have at least 100 nm between three airports, so at least 300 nm total. Had a student do his in a Cub he co-owned and he was gone all day. Told the C152 would be better but he wanted to do it in the Cub lol. Said he wished he had taken my suggestion when he got back. Good memories for him though.
 
100 is 7%, and 300 is 20% of 1500. Just sayin
 
Salty said:
100 is 7%, and 300 is 20% of 1500. Just sayin
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Whether I do 100 miles or 1500 miles, it's still flying and building hours. I just can't figure out what the big deal is with some of you guys lambasting somebody who wants to spend a couple days flying a few different places. It's not like I'm Forrest Gump and am running that long of a distance. :rolleyes:
 
azblackbird said:
Whether I do 100 miles or 1500 miles, it's still flying and building hours. I just can't figure out what the big deal is with some of you guys lambasting somebody who wants to spend a couple days flying a few different places
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I think there is a difference in 100 vs 1,500 miles.. yes, the plane may not know the difference but the pilot will.. and taking a rental out that far when someone is still relatively new in hours is not something I would necessarily do

This past autumn I really wanted to make use of my new IR and journey from San Diego up to Bozeman MT.. I decided against it. The trip would have been fun, and I've been flying since I was 13 or so, but I'd rather expand my flying radius in 100-200 nm chunks... not go from 300nm to 900nm in one jaunt

You don't see most new sailors cross the Atlantic the first few months they started sailing either.. even if for the boat it's all the same weather it's floating in a marina or thousands of miles at sea. Sure, flying you can theoretically land somewhere if the S hits the fan, but now what? You're stuck, potentially in the absolute middle of nowhere

I think there's something to be said there as far ADM goes. I could be wrong, or just too careful though!

I appreciate the ambition though @azblackbird and I didn't totally get why the backlash was as aggressive as it was!
 
mscard88 said:
But but that's the POA way. **** them! :D

@azblackbird
Years ago the "long xc" had to have at least 100 nm between three airports, so at least 300 nm total. Had a student do his in a Cub he co-owned and he was gone all day. Told the C152 would be better but he wanted to do it in the Cub lol. Said he wished he had taken my suggestion when he got back. Good memories for him though.
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So, you gonna sign off on a 1500 mile cross country solo for one of your students?
 
Tantalum said:
I think there is a difference in 100 vs 1,500 miles.. yes, the plane may not know the difference but the pilot will.. and taking a rental out that far when someone is still relatively new in hours is not something I would necessarily do
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I think the reason I don't consider it a big deal is that I used to do long distance motorcycle riding. A 1000 - 1500 mile day was nothing. A very good friend of mine did the same, and has now owned a T182RG for several years and has flown all over the country in his plane. He said it's no different planning a cross country airplane flight than it is planning a cross country motorcycle ride. I totally agree with him. :yesnod:
 
azblackbird said:
I think the reason I don't consider it a big deal is that I used to do long distance motorcycle riding. A 1000 - 1500 mile day was nothing. A very good friend of mine did the same, and has now owned a T182RG for several years and has flown all over the country in his plane. He said it's no different planning a cross country airplane flight than it is planning a cross country motorcycle ride. I totally agree with him. :yesnod:
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And that's why it became a big discussion. It IS NOT the same. Weather impacts on a motorcycle are more annoying than life threatening relative to an aircraft. I'm not going to re-argue the entire thread again, but that's the main issue, of which there are many more sub-issues. There's no good reason to do a trip that long when someone else is responsible for you (your endorsing instructor). It's not fair to them. Get the license and then do your long trips. To be clear, I'm talking about 1500 miles, not 100.
 
Salty said:
Weather impacts on a motorcycle are more annoying than life threatening relative to an aircraft.
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I could argue that it's very similar. I won't ride a bike on ice, just as I wouldn't fly a plane in ice. I prefer not to ride a bike in 70 mph gusts, just as I would prefer not to fly a plane in the same. There's a lot more similarities than you may think there is. ;)
 
azblackbird said:
I could argue that it's very similar. I won't ride a bike on ice, just as I wouldn't fly a plane in ice. I prefer not to ride a bike in 70 mph gusts, just as I would prefer not to fly a plane in the same. There's a lot more similarities than you may think there is. ;)
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You cannot just pull off the side of the road in an airplane.
 
In many ways I imagine sitting on a bike for 1,500 miles can be physically more exhausting than sitting in a plane at cruise for a couple hours... and accident and fatality rates will show that the fatality rate of motorcycle is about 72 deaths per 100,000 motorcycles registered. You cannot directly equate that to planes, but at 1.3 fatalities per 100,000 flight hours I would be comfortable saying that cruising in a Piper Archer for 10 hours is probably safer than riding a motorcycle for 10 hours (someone can correct my stats, these are per Google)

HOWEVER, for someone new to aviation I don't think you can know enough to know the two are similar, or that being good at one, will make you good at the other. One key to wisdom is being aware of, and vigilant of what you don't know, or don't have direct experience with

I wouldn't rush into a 1,500 mile trip.. get your license, build up 100-200 hours, then go off on the epic long cross country journeys. They're perfectly do-able, I know many people who have traversed the country various makes and model of GA planes

But I can understand the apprehension of a CFI to sign a student off for a 1,500 mile solo trip. When you go take your first motorcycle lesson tool around the parking lot you also don't jet off on a 1,500 mile trip

My $0.02
 
Salty said:
So, you gonna sign off on a 1500 mile cross country solo for one of your students?
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I doubt that, no. Never said anything like that. I was taking it after had his PPC.
 
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