CHECKRIDE FAILURE

[jordane93]

I thought this was the MEI add-on? Meaning you eventually did get your CFI?

Here's what I would do my man: Lay low, cool off on the checkrides for a while, instruct in singles until you get 1500 and forget about the MEI. You don't need the piston ME time anymore to get into the regionals. You probably have enough as it is from the MEI training. Go to airline training, get a couple 121 training events under your belt and move on with your life. That will set you up nicely to move along in your airline career. Sure, mainline may scrutinize your checkride busts in the future and the computer scoring thing at certain airlines may create snags, but no sense in crying over spilt milk.

My recommendation is that if you feel strongly enough that this is already somehow a show stopper for mainline jobs, go into a regional with a flowthrough agreement. That way if in six years you're still at the regional, you may have a backup conduit to salvage your career. No guarantees with flowthroughs either of course, but as a young single person I would move to the domicile of the flowthrough airline in order to not commute, as opposed to digging heels and commuting to a regional, or get into a non-flowthrough airline that's local because you are dead set on living where you are. Though that would be preferable than commuting imo. But this are far rocks. Focus on the near rocks right now, just lay low and get 1500 hours. At any rate, that's my advice. Good luck to ya.

This. The way the airlines are hiring, an MEI is basically useless unless you’re just getting it to further your knowledge.

 

[Ravioli]

Probably a bad analogy considering the vast majority of millionaires in the US have B grade point averages and very few went to Harvard. Some really crazy high number like 40% don’t even hold degrees.

Being rich has much more to do with savings rate and investing on top of a lack of debt than education, but a Harvard grad likely has better business contacts.

I made no commentary on wealth.
I meant subjecting yourself to the highest standards is preferable.

Now, if you're questioning the myth that Ivy league schools have high standards before and after matriculation that may have some merit.

But back to the OP forum shopping for the easiest DPE, I guess we need to find out who the modern day "Dootson School of Trucking" in the air is, right?

 

[Lindberg]

This, to me, is a big issue. You could not have competed the checklist without knowing about the drain. But you made it through your training without knowing about it. Which means you made it through your training without completing the checklist. If I was the DPE, I'd be questioning your judgment and ADM as well as your knowledge. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I think you may want to be prepared to answer questions about that.

When you were teaching him the preflight, what did you do when you got to that item on the checklist?

You deleted your response, but I'll answer it anyway. I'm far from perfect. I failed my first check ride. The DPE had a center line fetish and i was to the left. He gave me multiple chances and i blew it. He wasn't apologetic, but he was clearly disappointed.

The web didn't really exist then, but I didn't ***** about it. I didn't blame the examiner or my instructor. I did an hour with my instructor, flew with another examiner the same day, and got my ticket.

It's possible you're not cut out to be an instructor. Maybe find another way to build time.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You deleted your response, but I'll answer it anyway. I'm far from perfect. I failed my first check ride. The DPE had a center line fetish and i was to the left. He gave me multiple chances and i blew it. He wasn't apologetic, but he was clearly disappointed.

Don't you just hate it when DPEs require you to comply with the PTS!

 

[Marcos Y]

"The DPE had a center line fetish" "I did an hour with my instructor, flew with another examiner the same day, and got my ticket" ....

I can make a full speech about how important is the centerline in case of engine failure, tire blow, etc and asking why you went to an checkride with that safety deficiency, why you choose another DPE and don't get the retake with the same that failed you (maybe was less strict on the centerline?) ... I can ask you if in 1 hour your CFI fixed the centerline problem? Is more important learn to land in center of the runway or find the pitot drain in a checkride?. Both are important I think, but you told me that maybe I not cut out to be an CFI and can tell you that maybe you are not cut out to be private pilot (is that fair? probably not) . I think that we need look at the mirror before launch critics.

 

[denverpilot]

Kinda turned into a witch hunt but the candidate did toss out some doozies while I wasn’t caught up.

Shopping for an easy DPE. Ouch. Really? You want the privilege of teaching other aviators not to kill themselves in airplanes and you want the ride to be easy???

I got yelled at on my latest ride about a VERY nit picky thing but I UNDERSTAND the nit pick and it has had a desired result. I stopped a bad habit. Two actually. And won’t be teaching them either.

You really want a tough CFI ride if you’re serious about teaching. Tough but fair. I think not knowing where things are as an instructor is probably a fair bust.

But I also think bashing this guy anymore is counter-productive. If he’s going to teach, he has to get back on the horse, forget about how non-CFI rides go, and be prepared to teach.

If you need help getting there, OP, I’m game for quizzing you on the phone and playing “dumb student” if you want. If it’ll help. That all depends on you and what you want to do. It took me an initial failed ride to understand the teaching need and I know the disappointment. You have to push through it and teach yourself to teach. Anyone.

How would you feel if you cut someone loose in that aircraft and they got water in the pitot system, lost their airspeed indications as a low timer, and trashed an engine at an inopportune time and Vmc rolled the thing into the ground?

This is serious business, OP. You gotta get into the instructional mode in your head, or not teach.

Let me know on the phone call. PM or public, don’t care. Lots of people helped me, I will happily pass that gracious assistance along.

 

[MauleSkinner]

"The DPE had a center line fetish" "I did an hour with my instructor, flew with another examiner the same day, and got my ticket" ....

I can make a full speech about how important is the centerline in case of engine failure, tire blow, etc and asking why you went to an checkride with that safety deficiency, why you choose another DPE and don't get the retake with the same that failed you (maybe was less strict on the centerline?) ... I can ask you if in 1 hour your CFI fixed the centerline problem? Is more important learn to land in center of the runway or find the pitot drain in a checkride?. Both are important I think, but you told me that maybe I not cut out to be an CFI and can tell you that maybe you are not cut out to be private pilot (is that fair? probably not) . I think that we need look at the mirror before launch critics.

You missed the part about him not blaming someone else for his own failure.

 

[Marcos Y]

The one that don't know about drain was I. The fail was legit and I blew it. I made several mistakes, beginning for looking for a lenient DPE.

Thank you for the constructive posts, I learned from that and will try be a better pilot

 

[SkyDog58]

I recall how unfair some high school and college classmates thought it was when a teacher or professor asked a question on a major exam that was straight from the textbook or other class material but that was not mentioned in the exam review or on previous quizzes or homework. Such questions caught me with my pants down more than once but I understood that everything in the material was fair game so I never complained or cried like some did. This feels real similar.

 

[PaulS]

I thought this was the MEI add-on? Meaning you eventually did get your CFI?

Here's what I would do my man: Lay low, cool off on the checkrides for a while, instruct in singles until you get 1500 and forget about the MEI. You don't need the piston ME time anymore to get into the regionals. You probably have enough as it is from the MEI training. Go to airline training, get a couple 121 training events under your belt and move on with your life. That will set you up nicely to move along in your airline career. Sure, mainline may scrutinize your checkride busts in the future and the computer scoring thing at certain airlines may create snags, but no sense in crying over spilt milk.

My recommendation is that if you feel strongly enough that this is already somehow a show stopper for mainline jobs, go into a regional with a flowthrough agreement. That way if in six years you're still at the regional, you may have a backup conduit to salvage your career. No guarantees with flowthroughs either of course, but as a young single person I would move to the domicile of the flowthrough airline in order to not commute, as opposed to digging heels and commuting to a regional, or get into a non-flowthrough airline that's local because you are dead set on living where you are. Though that would be preferable than commuting imo. But this are far rocks. Focus on the near rocks right now, just lay low and get 1500 hours. At any rate, that's my advice. Good luck to ya.

What an appropriate forum name. This sounds like great advice to me OP.

 

[PaulS]

Probably a bad analogy considering the vast majority of millionaires in the US have B grade point averages and very few went to Harvard. Some really crazy high number like 40% don’t even hold degrees.

Being rich has much more to do with savings rate and investing on top of a lack of debt than education, but a Harvard grad likely has better business contacts.

Bingo, in those circles who you know is everything.

 

[TommyG]

Hopefully he looks for an airline that has low hiring standards and easy training classes.

 

[ARFlyer]

DPE, anyone in fact, will not fail you over one item. You must have missed other things along the way that showed poor knowledge. In any case as a CFI applicant you NEVER say "I don't know"! If you don't recall you say "let me look that up real quick". If you had done that the DPE would have overlooked the issue and made it just a debriefing item.

Hopefully he looks for an airline that has low hiring standards and easy training classes.

Mesa?

 

[denverpilot]

In any case as a CFI applicant you NEVER say "I don't know"! If you don't recall you say "let me look that up real quick". If you had done that the DPE would have overlooked the issue and made it just a debriefing item.

Probably not on the Seminole if that’s what he was flying. I posted everything there is about that drain in the POH.

You won’t find anything at all about what it looks like, or how to use it, and you’ll only have a hint of where to find it from that silly diagram.

 

[Lindberg]

"The DPE had a center line fetish" "I did an hour with my instructor, flew with another examiner the same day, and got my ticket" ....

I can make a full speech about how important is the centerline in case of engine failure, tire blow, etc

Glider with long wings, narrow field.... It's important for a lot of reasons. It also happened to have been a particular focus for that examiner. While I have never objected to the failure, I have had several DPE's since then tell me they would not have failed me.

and asking why you went to an checkride with that safety deficiency,

I was capable of landing on the centerline and had done so many times at that point. Whether it was anxiety, fatigue, inattention, laziness, or whatever, I didn't manage it that time. There is a difference between being unable to perform a task, and failing to perform that task when tested. I'd also done all of my training at smaller fields with narrower runways. There was no manifest issue prior to my checkride. And even the DPE did not consider there to be any safety deficiency. In fact, he told me my landings were very good, I was not drifting. But I was only using half of the runway. My pink slip listed only one item.

why you choose another DPE and don't get the retake with the same that failed you (maybe was less strict on the centerline?) ...

That DPE was an hour's flight away. My CFI wanted me to go back to him, but I was leaving town the next day, and he insisted I not leave town with my ride outstanding. He called several examiners to find one who could finish the ride that day. I am grateful to him and the examiner I completed my ride with. I would never have finished otherwise.

I can ask you if in 1 hour your CFI fixed the centerline problem?

Apparently. More likely, there wasn't a problem to begin with, and it was test anxiety combined with the DPE's focus and repetition leading me to just blow it. In addition to the 1.3 (I checked my logbook) with my instructor, the second DPE spent some time with me discussing the importance of landing on the centerline, why I thought I'd failed to do so previously, how the rest of the test had been, and my training. I then flew with him and landed on the centerline.

Is more important learn to land in center of the runway or find the pitot drain in a checkride?.

After reading your posts, I am 99.85% certain that the DPE did not fail you just for not knowing where the pitot drain was.

Both are important I think, but you told me that maybe I not cut out to be an CFI and can tell you that maybe you are not cut out to be private pilot (is that fair? probably not) .

A number of instructors and DPEs disagree with you as to my fitness, and so do I, which is enough for me. The fact that you still think this was just about the pitot drain makes me think I may be right about you.

I think that we need look at the mirror before launch critics.

I own my warts and mistakes. Buy me a drink and I might tell you about more of them.

The one that don't know about drain was I. The fail was legit and I blew it. I made several mistakes, beginning for looking for a lenient DPE.

Before the checkride, you flew a 4+ hour cross country in a plane that you'd never read the POH for. You did a pre-flight check on that plane using a checklist (that someone gave you?) that did not contain all the items on the manufacturer's checklist. You probably flew a bunch more hours in the plane for training without knowing its systems. All of those things happened before the lenient DPE came along. But then, in front of the DPE, you failed to recognize that any of these things were problems. These may all be functions of your training environment or instructor. But the fact that you still think the biggest issue is that you didn't know the answer to a question on the checkride, is what makes me think I'd not like to be in the back of a plane with you up front.

You may think that's harsh. Feel free to ignore my opinion, as it's just that. But I try to frequently remind myself of the following quote:

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh

 

[denverpilot]

A number of instructors and DPEs disagree with you as to my fitness...

I always just assume everyone thinks I’m completely unfit for anything, so then they get a mild surprise when I actually manage to pull something off!

 

[dmspilot]

I posted everything there is about that drain in the POH.

You won’t find anything at all about what it looks like, or how to use it, and you’ll only have a hint of where to find it from that silly diagram.

You didn't. The information is in the Amplified Normal Procedures section immediately following the checklist.

 

[denverpilot]

You didn't. The information is in the Amplified Normal Procedures section immediately following the checklist.

I checked. Not in mine. I’m working from the PA-44-180T one dated “Revised July 14, 2011”.

Ah there’s one sentence, found it buried in a paragraph that starts with checking the mags are off:

“Drain the pitot and static system lines through the drains located on the side panel next to the pilot’s seat.”

So yup, missed that sentence, so that will get you in the ballpark... but you won’t know what you’re looking for or how to operate it. No diagram or drawing.

Bottom of this page says Revised: April 2, 1982. What’s yours say?

There’s obviously a lot of stuff not in any POH but this system is pretty vague in the Seminole POH overall.

I chuckle that Piper properly prints “Information Manual” on the outside of reprints AND a page explaining it’s a non-updated Information Manual and THEN leaves the warning page inside two pages later, that it’s a POH and must match the airplane.

Hahaha. Sheesh. Delete that page. Attempting to be purposefully confusing, much?

 

[Palmpilot]

Why would this applicant be looking for an "easy DPE" when regardless of who the DPE went with would know about the previous failures. So obviously this third DPE was aware of the previous failures and I am not buying the OP's story of the drain hole as the sole reason the ride was discontinued. There were other issues that the OP isn't telling us about. Appears the applicant may have been a little argumentative with the DPE, never a smart move. Not everyone is cut out to be a CFI. Sorry, it's tough love but that's the way it is, and should be.

What difference does it make whether we buy his story or not? We're not the ones who will be deciding whether or not to issue the certificate.

 

[dmspilot]

Drain the pitot and static system lines through the drains located on the side panel next to the pilot’s seat.

That's indeed the statement to which I was referring. I don't know if further elaboration is necessary; I guess Piper thought the rest would be self-explanatory.

 

[ARFlyer]

I'll add my "I'm not blaming the DPE" failure story.

I failed my CFI ride because I talked too much during maneuvers. So much so I told the ASI that her damn good steep turn was 25' low during the last quarter. Anyone that knows me in the real world will attest to my limitless ability never to shut up. @timwinters

I've had to explain on every checkride and interview since why my record shows "CFI DQ: Teaching Methods". I've never once said it was because of the ASI. I've always explained that it was my fault and I've fixed it in XYZ fashion.

 

[denverpilot]

That's indeed the statement to which I was referring. I don't know if further elaboration is necessary; I guess Piper thought the rest would be self-explanatory.

I guess. There’s a lot of that poorly written manual stuff in all the spam can manuals, really.

It’s just checklist stuff to write a manual like that, I used to have to write them for other tech products. If you added diagrams of panels A, B, and C, you scribbled a note on your notepad next to the computer to check for any other panels that didn’t have diagrams and talk to the graphics folks.

Coming from mostly Cessna products I was glad someone showed me how the silly thing worked before I got in and could barely reach it under my leg.

Just something to cover waaaaaay back in the airplane checkout long long long before doing a CFI ride in one. That’s the important thing to note here. I have no idea how you’d fly it enough to be prepped for a CFI ride and not know where the thing was.

Some things on that airplane are much better hidden and photos are the best way to teach them, though. Like where the heater reset is in the nose. Unless you can drag the student to the maintenance hangar while the nose cap is off the thing, and if you can you should, of course, but otherwise they’re not taken off or opened up all that much on busy trainers.

Some stuff is just technique and important too, like how to see most of the top of the t-tail and elevator... have to stand on the wing and reach behind you and pull the yoke aft while looking rearward. It’s about the only time without a ladder you’ll ever see the top of the thing. But that’s not mentioned in the manual. Just stuff you learn from someone who knows the airplane real well.

Im just old I guess. I have radio manuals here for a simple mobile radio that are bigger than 8.5 x 11, and have fold out full schematics that end up being about half of an E sized drawing when you fold them out. I like a good manual.

We don’t get good manuals in nearly any products anymore but ironically Aviation may have gone the other direction toward massive ones with tons of detail. Comparing a modern Cessna AFM to my 1975 POH in mine is laughable. What I have is essentially the Cliff’s Notes version compared to the three inch thick monster in the back seat pocket of a T182T.

I laughed when someone pointed out that the section numbers are standardized in AFMs for the most part, when I was studying for the CFI. Nearly everything I had flown was old and had the pamphlet style POHs and it never dawned on me that the numbers for the giant chapters actually meant something, and were even the same, across most manufacturers nowadays.

My official performance numbers after you remove the Cessna ones and replace as directed with the ones in the Robertson STOL addendum, are literally three lines of table data in four columns, printed huge across two pages, with four little sub-notes. No charts, no graphs, nothing. Four vertical columns at different altitudes and temperatures, and three aircraft weights for the rows. Funky.

 

[FlySince9]

the pitot system has a drain?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I laughed when someone pointed out that the section numbers are standardized in AFMs for the most part,

Nit (minor or major is in the eye of the beholder). The section numbers are standardized in a POH, not in a AFM. The Pilot's Operating Handbook is a format created by GAMA in 1975 to standardize flight manual contents (GAMA Specification No. 1). The goal was to take the often hodgepodge of AFM material and create standardized manuals which, to quite the Spec

a. Are of maximum usefulness as an operating reference book for pilots;
b. Meet government regulatory requirements [AFM for the most part in the case of the FAA] where applicable; and
c. Meet industry standards for scope of material, arrangement, nomenclature and definitions.
​

 

[Ken Ibold]

Years ago, after I sold my Mooney, I was checking out in a rental Mooney and the instructor asked me where the drains were. I showed him. He asked me how to not balloon a landing in a Mooney. I showed him. He asked me about stalling a Mooney. I showed him. Then I paid for his signature and left. What a bargain.

 

[bflynn]

So I was loosely following this thread - my understanding is that someone failed a ME checkride because they could not complete a preflight checklist due to not knowing how to accomplish a step? That seems pretty grossly incompetent. It's like "Oh, I didn't check that the fuel cutoff was pushed in because I didn't know where it was". At least then the engine wouldn't start for you....

 

[flyingron]

I'd just respond that the centerline is out of service.

 

[mscard88]

What difference does it make whether we buy his story or not? We're not the ones who will be deciding whether or not to issue the certificate.

It doesn't but he is the one who came looking for sympathy.

 

[Brad Z]

Is it me or is this dude posting crap and then deleting it? That's the sign of someone who's either 1) drunk 2) a troll or 3) very butthurt...or possibly some combination of the three.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Is it me or is this dude posting crap and then deleting it? That's the sign of someone who's either 1) drunk 2) a troll or 3) very butthurt...or possibly some combination of the three.

Seems like the kind of guy you want flying an airliner.

 

[Salty]

Is it me or is this dude posting crap and then deleting it? That's the sign of someone who's either 1) drunk 2) a troll or 3) very butthurt...or possibly some combination of the three.

Seems like the kind of guy you want flying an airliner.

Yeah, he should be more like me and delete the posts before he submits them.

 

[SkyDog58]

I'd just respond that the centerline is out of service.

Well it certainly is at your field.

 

[Tantalum]

you NEVER say "I don't know"

I was taught the same thing for both PPL and IR. Look it up if you don't know it. Of course there's the possibility that you will not be able to find it, but honestly then you shouldn't have been signed off for the checkride, the examiner examines to the PTS, so there really shouldn't be something asked that's the first time you're hearing it or impossible to look up. There were legitimate things I had to look up in my checkride, not because I did not know it, but in my desire to impress I didn't want to give a wrong answer

How many people did mock check rides with a different instructor? Seems the OP could have benefited from a very thorough mock checkride from someone else.. and given how critical the pitot and static systems are I think that's one of the key components you should be very familiar with its operation

Seems like the kind of guy you want flying an airliner

Right?! The more I read this thread the more I have moved from feeling bad for this guy to being happy that the system works

 

[Ravioli]

I recall how unfair some high school and college classmates thought it was when a teacher or professor asked a question on a major exam that was straight from the textbook or other class material but that was not mentioned in the exam review or on previous quizzes or homework.

I was taking an oral exam in my Environmental Economics course and the first question the Prof asked was "What is the first law of thermodynamics."

I knew the answer anyway, so I told him, and ended with "but why did you ask that?"

He said it was in the first paragraph of the first chapter of the assigned text. And he pulled out the book and showed me. He says, "did you read this?" and I said "I skimmed it."

Well, guess where that exam went After about an hour he asked if I'd be satisfied with a B and I said "Yes, thank you!"

 

[Half Fast]

I was taking an oral exam in my Environmental Economics course and the first question the Prof asked was "What is the first law of thermodynamics."

Well, after all, the first law of thermo is "You can't win."

 

[flyingron]

Well it certainly is at your field.

Never installed.

 

[SkyDog58]

Never installed.

That explains why I didn't see it.

 

[denverpilot]

Nit (minor or major is in the eye of the beholder). The section numbers are standardized in a POH, not in a AFM. The Pilot's Operating Handbook is a format created by GAMA in 1975 to standardize flight manual contents (GAMA Specification No. 1). The goal was to take the often hodgepodge of AFM material and create standardized manuals which, to quite the Spec

a. Are of maximum usefulness as an operating reference book for pilots;
b. Meet government regulatory requirements [AFM for the most part in the case of the FAA] where applicable; and
c. Meet industry standards for scope of material, arrangement, nomenclature and definitions.
​

Fair ‘nuff. Thanks. Like I said, the entire thing was a revelation to me! Haha. Old ass airplanes in my logbook.

Is it me or is this dude posting crap and then deleting it? That's the sign of someone who's either 1) drunk 2) a troll or 3) very butthurt...or possibly some combination of the three.

Ummmm yeah.

 

[Palmpilot]

Yeah, he should be more like me and delete the posts before he submits them.

I wrote a post like that in this thread!

 

[MauleSkinner]

So I was loosely following this thread - my understanding is that someone failed a ME checkride because they could not complete a preflight checklist due to not knowing how to accomplish a step? That seems pretty grossly incompetent. It's like "Oh, I didn't check that the fuel cutoff was pushed in because I didn't know where it was". At least then the engine wouldn't start for you....

I used to fly with a guy like that...there were three systems checks/activations that never happened when he was driving the checklist. His response when I brought it up was "I don't know how to do those."

We kinda had a little come to Jesus discussion.

Btw...did I mention that this clown was the Director of Operations?