CHECKRIDE FAILURE

Marcos Y

Filing Flight Plan
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Pepe
DPE in different FSDO than mine, failed me because I were not able to find the pitot drain system in 5 minutes in a MEI checkride.

He gave me the money back when I complain against the task and failure decision.

Lesson learned, my fault and will be better prepared next ride.
 
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What does your CFI who signed you off for the ride say? You said the change of FSDO was a long story and they may be far away, but you’re going to need their help.

I’m not making this argument personally but here’s what you’re up against:

As far as the systems knowledge, you’re still required to perform to your Commercial Pilot certificate on a CFI ride. Systems knowledge is mandatory.

FAA may not care in the slightest that the DPE asked systems questions, if the standard is that you need to be teaching in that aircraft and know it cold. Systems knowledge isn’t dumped because it’s an add-on.

As far as the PTS table for add on rides, I’ve seen an occasional mistake made where an item not in the table is re-tested that’s not required. The Commercial certificate standard still applies.

You might find a sympathetic ear at the FSDO (or whatever they’re calling it these days) about the add on table or you might not. Can you teach those items in both types of aircraft? Would you have to with a student? See where this leads?

You already have the Commercial certificate so, anything you could do for that ride shouldn’t have been too difficult for the CFI ride. You do have to demonstrate it and teach it at the same time as flying it, though.

Your instructor will probably have to back you and put their signature they have, that said you were fully prepared for the ride, on the line.

I wouldn’t start a war with an examiner and involve the FSDO if you don’t have any support from them.

Friendly internet advice... which is worth about as much as you paid for it. But you really need the advice of those who trained you and signed your logbook before you proceed, in my opinion.

You can complain to the FSDO about the items tested and they might say, “Those items would be expected of a CFI candidate whether they’re on the table or not.”

Again, not necessarily my personal opinion. I’d rather folks follow the rules, but I’m explaining how this could go down for you.

Here’s another possibility. FAA says okay, maybe there’s something going on here. We’ll send an FAA person to give you the checkride tomorrow.

You ready to fly with a Fed? They can ask anything they like... Are you ready to fly and perform to the standards of all of your certificates and ratings tomorrow?

Just thoughts. Take or leave as you wish. Proceed with caution.

Was it truly unfair, or just mildly out of the ordinary, but well within the things you should have known for this checkride, anyway? Don’t let frustration cloud your judgement in this matter. Humility is critical.

Okay I’ll give a personal opinion now.

I think not knowing the pitot static system of an aircraft you’re teaching in, is probably a fail no matter what. (There’s really only two popular ways for manufacturers to employ pitot system drains on most of the popular twin trainers. You didn’t say what you flew but unless it was an oddball, there’s only a couple of common types. You could have talked about those two while you looked up the details in the POH. And on older aircraft, you won’t find it in the POH anyway. It’s not in mine. You have to just look at the pitot tube and see it. It just “is” one way or the other.)

The PTS add on table being busted by the examiner is probably also not something that should have been any big deal. It MIGHT earn you a re-ride but you’d better be very well prepared for that one.

It could be a bear of a ride.

As far as the disappointment and possible career implications... you’re attitude will make a significant impact on that. Hiring is as strong as it’s ever been in my lifetime. I suspect with patience and effort you’d get the opportunities you desire and have a chance to explain the failures and what you learned from them to a recruiter in this market. Twenty years ago, maybe not. Chin up. Learn and grow.

It sounds contrite, but sometimes some doors close which leads to something better anyway. Roll with the punches and be smart about how you react to them.
 
He gave you your money back?
Did he record the bust? I've never heard of one giving you your money back before.

Also I don't think the regionals have a 3 bust limit, I wouldn't worry too much about that, frankly they can't afford to be that picky, and after years in a regional without any issues I doubt a major will care about it ether.

Choose your battles carefully, but I would be interested if he documented the fail seeing he gave you your money back. Odd
 
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He gave you your money back?
Did he record the bust? I've never heard of one giving you your money back before.

He said he got a Notice of Disapproval, so the deed is done in IACRA. But I also thought the monetary refund was odd. Most of our local DPEs make it clear that once the money exchanges hands, that part is over with, and it’s done and completed, and the money is put away before the formal briefing to start the ride. They kept their part of the bargain and showed up. If the candidate wants a Discontinuance for any reason they can still get one, but the money is gone. (And most will work with a candidate on a discontinuance for weather or aircraft problems and not charge for the second day.)

I can’t think of a reason to refund at all, other than maybe appearing to be kind to a completely unprepared cross-FSDO candidate where the DPE couldn’t interact with the candidate’s instructor at all during the debrief.

If the FSDO comes calling about the items not on the add on table or some other complaint by the candidate, I would suspect that conversation would go something like this...

“Hey, this candidate shows up asking for a ride with a signature of a CFI I’ve never heard of, many States away, and was woefully unprepared on systems. I was tying to help him out by even scheduling this ride with him, but when the ride went really poorly, I just decided to issue the Notice of Disapproval and even refunded his money. He needs a local instructor and prep work to meet the standards and I felt bad I had let him schedule the checkride in the first place.”

Make sense? I don’t know. It’s just my best guess as to why the refund was issued.
 
The regionals don’t have a 3 limit thing. I’ve flown with guys in the regionals with that or more and I’ve heard of it many times, I have friends that are recruiters across the regional board, it all depends how you approach it when it’s brought up, there’s no magical X number and the regional won’t look at you.

Good luck in getting this taken care of but please don’t view it as a career ender, cause it’s not,
 
The failure won't kill your career. The fact that the DPE gave you your money back is quite surprising and thus I agree with @mscard88 that there was more to the story.

Most of the time when I hear complaints about an unfair DPE, they fail for [insert reason] and don't give you the money back,sometimes charge extra for the re-exam. If he actually gave you your money back, be happy you got it and find another examiner.
 
i think you need to read the PTS rather than just look at the pictures (emphasis mine):
Addition of Aircraft Category and/or Class Ratings to a Flight Instructor Certificate

An applicant who holds a flight instructor certificate and seeks an additional aircraft category and/or class rating will be evaluated in the runway incursion avoidance Task and at least the Areas of Operation and Tasks that are unique and appropriate to the rating(s) sought (see table at the beginning of each section). At the discretion of the examiner, the applicant’s competence in all Areas of Operation may be evaluated.

Also, if you think a lack of systems knowlege of an airplane when you're acting as pilot in command is acceptable, that's probably going to have far more effect on your career and life than the lack of knowlege that's apparently causing your checkride failures.

I'd learn to strive for something more than the absolute minimum required to get by if I were you.
 
From the way you wrote in your post, I think you might not be a native English speaker. Did communication abilities enter into the equation?
 
I agree with pretty much everything else said here. As a instructor applicant, you have to be able to take responsibility for the checkride and be familiar with what will be covered in the PTS (or ACS, if applicable). There should be no confusion about what is covered, and if there is, you should have the PTS/ACS right there as a reference.

One note...shouldn't matter what district office a DPE works under. Everyone uses the same standards. Sure, some examiners have nuances, but that shouldn't matter for a prepared applicant. I don't see how the DPE was "totally unfair".

And FWIW, any aircraft that you show up with for a practical test you should be familiar with all of the systems. The expectation is that as soon as the practical test is over you should be able to provide dual instruction in that very same airplane.

Point is, do your homework. I don't know why you've busted in the past, and the DPE doesn't know either (or care), but it sounds like you may be chronicly unprepared for your examinations. That's possible in some an initio programs where you just get pushed through the system and no one want to pull you off the assembly line to get more training and preparation time.
 
The odd part in addition to the refund is "I don't want to see you anymore". Was this a hostile examiner/ee?
 
The odd part in addition to the refund is "I don't want to see you anymore". Was this a hostile examiner/ee?
Sounds like it was worth it for the examiner to not have to deal with the applicant in the future. I can think of many ways to interpret that; most are not flattering to the applicantnor his abilities.
 
Interesting to read all the replies. I don’t know how y’all got anything period from that OP.
 
Sounds like it was worth it for the examiner to not have to deal with the applicant in the future. I can think of many ways to interpret that; most are not flattering to the applicantnor his abilities.
I’d say they aren’t flattering to the DPE too. The DPE was unable to deal with a minor disagreement and turned it into a confrontation while losing several hundred dollars in the process.
 
So every pitot drain I've seen is a hole in the bottom of the pitot tube... Is it any more complicated than that on other planes? The location may vary by a few inches but what's up with that?
 
I knew what is a pitot-static drain.... I wasn't able to find where were it was located. The POH says
"The selector valve is located at the low point of the system. Another drain is provided in the lower left front side panel to drain moisture from the pressure line running between the pitot mast and the instrument panel"


I was nervous I wasn't able to find it.
 
So every pitot drain I've seen is a hole in the bottom of the pitot tube... Is it any more complicated than that on other planes? The location may vary by a few inches but what's up with that?
Some cherokees have a Pitot drain in the cabin.
 
Do ALL planes have a pitot drain?

I ask because in my Sky Arrow, I think a length of hose runs directly from the pitot tube in the nose to the gauge, and the POH make no mention of one. There’s also not one apparent in the pitot tube itself.
 
Do ALL planes have a pitot drain?

I ask because in my Sky Arrow, I think a length of hose runs directly from the pitot tube in the nose to the gauge, and the POH make no mention of one. There’s also not one apparent in the pitot tube itself.
I really can't see how it would be reliable in the rain without one. I learned something new today about some being located inside the airplane.
 
Also the manual says that you can open the alternate static to drain the system... (the DPE knew about that drain located inside the panel and don't accepted the alternate static answer).

I really didn't knew about it... next time I should read more carefully the POH
 
Light Sport POH’s can leave a lot to be desired, but this is all mine shows on the topic:

25987287837_b3131410ae_z.jpg


Next I’ll check the AMM.
 
Also the manual says that you can open the alternate static to drain the system... (the DPE knew about that drain located inside the panel and don't accepted the alternate static answer).

I really didn't knew about it... next time I should read more carefully the POH
Maybe be careful with suggesting the alternate static port will drain the Pitot system. Pitot and static never mix.

Overall I'm impressed with the way you've rebounded Marcos. Nice job taking on the challenge rather than accepting a "blame the examiner" attitude.
 
There are some really bad DPEs out there.
Twenty years ago, I scheduled a ride with a DPE for an endorsement.
I showed up in my pastor suit. (I did a hospital visit on the way to the airport)
As soon as I walked in the door he asked me for my logbook. I handed it to him and he wrote "disapproved".
He didn't like Christians and he hated priests. His mistake was saying so in front of witnesses in the FBO.
It took two years, but the last I heard of him he was working in a hardware store.
 
Yesterday I wrote the post in hot... with the failure frustration plus paid 9 hours of multi time to do the checkride. Anyway, after read the post and sleep the DPE was right, too hard but right.

About the drain thing: POH says


The holes in the sensors for pitot and static pressure must be fully open and free from dirt, bugs and polish. If one or rnore of the pitot-static instruments malfunctions these pressure *yst"-r should be checked for leaks, dirt or water. If moistu¡e is present, the static system can bê drained by turning on the alternate static system. Thq selector valve is located at the lowpoint of the sysrem. Another drain is provided in the lower left f¡ont side panel to drain moisture from the þressurè line running between the pitot mast and the instrument panel.
 
Do ALL planes have a pitot drain?

I ask because in my Sky Arrow, I think a length of hose runs directly from the pitot tube in the nose to the gauge, and the POH make no mention of one. There’s also not one apparent in the pitot tube itself.
Typically the pitot tube itself will have a drain hole to check for blockage on preflight if nothing else. More complex installations might have a separate draining system for the pitot, the static or both. Sometimes it's in the cockpit, sometimes not.
 
Light Sport POH’s can leave a lot to be desired, but this is all mine shows on the topic:

25987287837_b3131410ae_z.jpg


Next I’ll check the AMM.
This thread is yielding many positive results.

I always find it fascinating that we as humans will accept something for years and one day the light will go on and we say something like wait just a minute here now.
 
The Sky Arrow AMM is mute on the subject of a pitot (or static) system drain.

Worth mentioning that under Light Sport rules these planes are not certified to IFR standards. It can be argued they're not "certified" at all.
 
About the drain thing: POH says


The holes in the sensors for pitot and static pressure must be fully open and free from dirt, bugs and polish. If one or rnore of the pitot-static instruments malfunctions these pressure *yst"-r should be checked for leaks, dirt or water. If moistu¡e is present, the static system can bê drained by turning on the alternate static system. Thq selector valve is located at the lowpoint of the sysrem. Another drain is provided in the lower left f¡ont side panel to drain moisture from the þressurè line running between the pitot mast and the instrument panel.
Yup, the POH mentions separate drains for the Pitot and static systems. The wording is accurate in using "pressure line" to describe the line from the Pitot tube to the airspeed indicator. I just call it the Pitot system which isn't accurate so I should correct my word choice.
 
The Sky Arrow AMM is mute on the subject of a pitot (or static) system drain.

Worth mentioning that under Light Sport rules these planes are not certified to IFR standards. It can be argued they're not "certified" at all.
Are you planning to add a drain to each line now?
 
Are you planning to add a drain to each line now?

Nope.

In 10+ years and 500 hours I can count on one hand the times I’ve flown in light rain. And I cover the pitot tube on the rare occasion I tie down outside. In any case never had water incursion in either system. If there ever is, it’s trivially easy to pop off the lines where they run into the panel and blow them out.
 
Nope.

In 10+ years and 500 hours I can count on one hand the times I’ve flown in light rain. And I cover the pitot tube on the rare occasion I tie down outside. In any case never had water incursion in either system. If there ever is, it’s trivially easy to pop off the lines where they run into the panel and blow them out.
Wow.
 
Nope.

In 10+ years and 500 hours I can count on one hand the times I’ve flown in light rain. And I cover the pitot tube on the rare occasion I tie down outside. In any case never had water incursion in either system. If there ever is, it’s trivially easy to pop off the lines where they run into the panel and blow them out.

Eddie have you looked for a drain hole on your pitot tube?
 

The pitot and static lines are the two blue lines - the green taped is the pitot, and the yellow taped is the static:

12663503143_3bf8dc8630_z.jpg

Both slide right off.

Pretty sure the pitot tube is just a tube - its a press-fit into a receptacle in the nose, sealed with o-rings. I'll take a closer look next time I'm at the hangar.
 
The SR 20 I fly has sumps under the floor boards for both the pitot and static systems that are to be drained at annual or when evidence of water in the system. I knew about the drain on the pitot tube and probably read about the sumps first time through the poh but wouldn't have remembered about the sumps if I had been asked.
 
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