Why climb for ice?

Because in the attached sounding, the there is solid ice (and lots of it) up to 19,000 and an unprotected aircraft will never make it on top for sublimation to occur. For most GA pilots, the notion is a physics notion and not an operational consideration.
 

Attachments

  • Lake Tahoe Sounding.pdf
    246.4 KB · Views: 40
Because in the attached sounding, the there is solid ice (and lots of it) up to 19,000 and an unprotected aircraft will never make it on top for sublimation to occur. For most GA pilots, the notion is a physics notion and not an operational consideration.

At least in my experience, sublimation is a very slow process. In some flights where I picked up ice while climbing and got to clear (sub-freezing) air on top, there was virtually no sublimation or shedding to speak of until my descent, sometimes hours later.
 
This is something that I've wondered for a long time, but just now thought about. Why is it suggested that if one encounters ice, that person should climb to a higher altitude. I can understand the idea of "more altitude, more options," but it seems to me that in any case other than a temperature inversion, temperature reduces with altitude. Seems icing would be worse if you climb. Any moisture that has not become ice would freeze (at least in my mind).

What am I missing?
What I have found depending on the aircraft performance and type and temperatures at various altitudes from warm to cold it all depends where the warmest temps are and moisture.
 
Icing generally occurs because something IS inverted, such as a warm moist layer raised to be interspersed at a colder altitude. In the situtation of freezing rain, climbing is the ONLY way out, as supercooled drizzle drops at less than 32 degrees remain so until they collide with you- becoming ice.

The problem with climbing is that all the ice stops at the alititude with "lift" runs out- lift that supports the droplets in the atmosphere. At the very topmost such altitude, icing is always worst.

For much more, because I sold the copyright to a string of articles in Aviation Safety, to Aviation Safety when they were published, I can't post them here. But their website has 'em.
I'm glad that the copyright ran out, because I've never heard such drivel in my life. I'm glad they are out of reprint.
 
I'm glad that the copyright ran out, because I've never heard such drivel in my life. I'm glad they are out of reprint.
Drivel? You don't read your own posts much, do you? For the record, although I'd have added a comma or two to make it a bit clearer, it's a good summary of icing.
 
This is something that I've wondered for a long time, but just now thought about. Why is it suggested that if one encounters ice, that person should climb to a higher altitude. I can understand the idea of "more altitude, more options," but it seems to me that in any case other than a temperature inversion, temperature reduces with altitude. Seems icing would be worse if you climb. Any moisture that has not become ice would freeze (at least in my mind).

What am I missing?
there is another ... possibly simpler way to look at this...

As much as we fear icing conditions.... The Conditions for Icing to form on aircraft, ARE SPECIFIC AND FICKLE"
Moisture, Temperature, Air Pressure, the speed of the airplane... the shape of the wing.... and a few more variables make up the "Secret Sauce" ... ALL OF WHICH... need to be at just the right relationship... for icing to occur.

Change one variable... and you can ruin the formula... no ice.

The reason that "Climbing is a good first choice"
Change Altitude =
a) Change temperature
b) Change moisture content
c) Change...any variable.... and you can likely break the icing conditions...change change change
But why Climb???
This is NOT a joke..
You can always descend later.

Climb...
Or Turn AROUND.... You personally saw that you weren't getting icing 20 miles back the other way.
Descend

BUT GET THE HELL OUT IMMEDIATELY.
 
Icing generally occurs because something IS inverted, such as a warm moist layer raised to be interspersed at a colder altitude. In the situtation of freezing rain, climbing is the ONLY way out, as supercooled drizzle drops at less than 32 degrees remain so until they collide with you- becoming ice.

The problem with climbing is that all the ice stops at the alititude with "lift" runs out- lift that supports the droplets in the atmosphere. At the very topmost such altitude, icing is always worst.

For much more, because I sold the copyright to a string of articles in Aviation Safety, to Aviation Safety when they were published, I can't post them here. But their website has 'em.

Just curious, how much FIKI/icing time to you have?
 
4. Ice can be VERY Localized. Sometime just picking a new heading 45deg off of what your flying for a minute will get you out. Use all your tools...take a turn and a climb, or a turn and a desecnt.

How are the odds any higher that a turn or a climb or decent will be any better than straight ahead? If Ice is very localized, then maybe 5 seconds ahead it’s gone.
 
Just curious, how much FIKI/icing time to you have?

Well, considering he owns a FIKI bird, and his last one was FIKI too, and he had that one when his daughters were infants IIRC and they're now out of college, and that he was writing articles for Aviation Safety on the subject well over a decade ago... Enough.
 
Well, considering he owns a FIKI bird, and his last one was FIKI too, and he had that one when his daughters were infants IIRC and they're now out of college, and that he was writing articles for Aviation Safety on the subject well over a decade ago... Enough.

Question was more how much time does he have flying in mod or worse ice, not so much what he bought or wrote.
 
Question was more how much time does he have flying in mod or worse ice, not so much what he bought or wrote.
About a lifetime's worth on one flight as a naval officer, IIRC from a story he posted here or on AOPA. Dr. Bruce has been around a long time. When he speaks, you ought to listen. :)
 
About a lifetime's worth on one flight as a naval officer, IIRC from a story he posted here or on AOPA. Dr. Bruce has been around a long time. When he speaks, you ought to listen. :)

He flew in the navy? Also that doesn’t answer the question. It was a pretty simple and innocent enough question
 

So what's the source of your question anyway? I can't think of any reason you'd keep asking at this point other than to attempt to discredit him for some reason. Why don't you try to actually share something productive if you disagree?
 
So what's the source of your question anyway? I can't think of any reason you'd keep asking at this point other than to attempt to discredit him for some reason. Why don't you try to actually share something productive if you disagree?

It’s a topic about icing, you find it odd someone asks about another’s experience flying in ice?
 
In my experience, the one immutable rule about airframe icing is that there are no rules. Too many variables. FWIW, I have climbed through icy layers to VFR on top many times and it took forever for the ice to sublimate off. Always had plenty of clear air between the bases and the ground, just in case. I never flew a piston airplane that was certified for known icing.
 
Lifted warm moist air...
That's probably worth remembering.
 
Better question for @bbchien - How much icing time have you accumulated in the 14 years since you first posted to this thread? :)
I have no idea. I am above 10K hours and now log only for recurrency. However, in easy memory I've at least half a dozen long trips per year which are planned around ice- in the Ohio River valley, to KASE, etc. And I'm averaging 200 hrs/ year by the expense log.....

And I have a lot of P-3 time- which was our Bering Sea IFR patrol ship. I'd say most of that was IFR at risk for ice. How much multi turbo propellor time do you have over the Bering sea?

James, you're always trying to be "the heavy". Best to ease it off, man. I get tired of the personal attacks.....
 
Last edited:
The Only reason I've ever encountered for Climbing after picking up ice is in the hopes that We could get above the Layer. This is easier to determine in Daylight Hours of course but otherwise I would say lower is probably safer unless it's IMC to 1000AGL... In that case, I would say you probably should not have been flying that day.
 
This is something that I've wondered for a long time, but just now thought about. Why is it suggested that if one encounters ice, that person should climb to a higher altitude. I can understand the idea of "more altitude, more options," but it seems to me that in any case other than a temperature inversion, temperature reduces with altitude. Seems icing would be worse if you climb. Any moisture that has not become ice would freeze (at least in my mind).

What am I missing?
a) Not a good idea unless your plane has a lot of excess power.

b) If it's freezing rain or freezing drizzle, you are (by definition) in a temperature inversion. That's the main origin of the advice. If you're in freezing precip and have a lot of power, it's theoretically possible to climb into the above-freezing air where the rain or drizzle is originating. But most of us don't have that much surplus power, and every minute your airframe is accumulating SLD icing, your performance is degrading, so soon you'll be struggling just to maintain altitude. If there's freezing precip (SLD) in the forecast at all, piston aircraft--and some turbine singles, like the Caravan--need to stay on the ground, even if they have FIKI.

c) If it's light rime (SSD) in a 2 or 3,000 ft layer of broken strato-cumulus (very common in late fall/winter/early spring around Ontario and Quebec), the rime-ice accumulation will stop as soon as you're above the clouds--generally at around 6 to 8,000 ft MSL in the regions north of the Great Lakes and New England--and will quickly sublimate off in the sunshine above, even if it's well below freezing up there. You usually pick up just a little frosting climbing up through the clouds, not enough to affect performance. But always have an out (or three) in case it's worse than expected, because weather has a way of sneaking up and kicking you in the behind.

Lake-effect icing in the lee of the Great Lakes with a cold winter NW wind is a special case. It will usually be severe clear above (tops out around 6 to 8,000 ft MSL again), but inside will be severe SLD icing and heavy snow. It's usually in well-defined areas, with streamers extended further. I've often overflown it between Ottawa and NYC in my PA-28-161 (mainly around the Watertown/Syracuse area), with severe clear on both ends, but like flying over mountains, there aren't a lot of options if you have engine problems while you're on top, so it's a personal risk decision. It's different from the normal freezing rain and severe SLD icing ahead of a winter warm front because it tops it so low and is usually clear above (winter weather ahead of a warm front can extend into the high teens or 20s).
 
Last edited:
....Why is it suggested that if one encounters ice, that person should climb to a higher altitude. I can understand the idea of "more altitude, more options," .....Seems icing would be worse if you climb.....

because you don't want to be

 
Seems like a pretty good thread on icing. I would say the old adage to climb in icing is very relevant if you fly a reasonably powered Deicied aircraft. You will almost always will find better conditions above. However, I am not sure this is really good advice for a non-deiced typical piston powered aircraft. For the many reasons posted above. Icing often (usually) gets worse for a while before it gets better. The advice to climb at Vy can be particularly bad advice since at a high angle of attack, ice starts really adhering to the underside of the aircraft and the slower speed promotes more icing. Most certified aircraft have a minimum icing speed and it’s well above Vy. I would say if you’re in a non-deiced relatively under powered plane and you encounter ice, you know you didn’t have ice behind you and I would simply declare with ATC do a 180, and go back to more favorable conditions. The advice on weather knowledge is sound advice. While ice can mess up your best laid plans, it’s not magical and you can understand it. Scott Dennstaedt (sp) AvWeatherworx has a plethora of info.
 
Back
Top