New To Flight Following - Questions?

Cluemeister said:
Has anyone mentioned frequency changes while under flight following? This is how it goes for me:

Podunk Approach: “Bugsmasher 123, contact Springfield center at 123.9”
Me: “Springfield 123.9”
(Switch to 123.9)
Me: “Springfield Center, Bugsmasher 123, level 5 thousand 5 hundred”

Is that how you guys handle the transfers?
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I don't bother with the names, I don't really care and it doesn't matter, I also drop the 1, since they all start with one. I also drop the altitude unless I'm in a climb or decent or restricted, Aside from that same

So

Podunk Approach: “Bugsmasher 123, contact Springfield center at 123.9”
Me: “23.9”
(Switch to 123.9)
Me: “Bugsmasher 123”
 
On the next lesson, ask your CFI to explain and demonstrate. IMHO, the school should not let you loose on cross-countries until you are good enough on the radio to get FF.
Asking for opinions here on PoA is not a bad idea, just be careful sifting through the responses.
Good luck and have fun!
 
Also expect change to my frequency 123.4 during FF, when u change sectors. 95% of my flights are on FF, they have always handed over to approach or tower.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
If you plan to eventually get your instrument rating, I would recommend flight following for every flight (actually s good idea regardless). It will get you comfortable with the system and the radio and will be one less thing to worry about when you start working on the IR. Don't missunderstand, you still have to learn new radio calls, but i think it is easier if you have been flying with flight following.

I am one of those guys that only flew cross county with flight following and since I got my IR, I only fly IFR if I am going more than a few miles.

Jim
 
Was this not covered by your CFI? Especially for solo x country?
 
Sinistar said:
Sounds like I should always be prepared to request terminating radar services myself in case they miss it or are cutting it too close for my liking near the destination. Plus I didn't know he various ways I can end it. And I now have a better feeling as to how they would respond to me just landing without ending...they will play it safe, get worried and search - so don't put them in that situation. I'm going to use it on the next flight!
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First, NEVER just leave FF or change frequency without cancelling or advising first.

There is a simple phrase to keep in your back pocket..."NorCal, Skylane 12345, field in sight". If coming into an uncontrolled field that means you wanna cancel and go to CTAF...or if coming into a controlled tower and you were expecting a handoff to tower, it is polite pilot lingo to say "hey dumb arse did you forget about me???" and they will either hand you off or tell ya to stay with them a bit longer for some reason.

If you are on FF, there is almost no scenario where you need to leave frequency on your own and initiate contact with someone else. They are supposed to coordinate transitions of airspace and hand you off all the way to touchdown. Only exception to that is if before you hit C or D and THEY dump you off with "Radar Service Terminated, frequency change approved". Then you are no longer in communication and allowed to enter without reestablishing contact with tower.
 
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TommyG said:
Was this not covered by your CFI? Especially for solo x country?
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Nope.

Two different CFI's and both focused on VFR flight plans. Did most of my training at a Delta which is beneath a Bravo. We requested Bravo access twice (from ground control) but both attempts were met with "Remain outside the Bravo airspace" in the air as we neared it. One of those flights showed up on Flightaware thus that part of the question.

So not having ever used FF and trying to use all the tools at hand and prep for eventual instrument training are the reasons for the original question. Plus it seems safer. Time to learn it!

Once i am comfortable using traffic advisories then i will work on the Bravo entry to save time heading east.
 
My CFIs have me use FF maybe 50% of the time on average. On the way out it's easy because if I specify a destination in my taxi request to the ground controller I'll be put on FF automatically. The only tricky part is that sometimes I don't get the squawk code for a couple minutes and it comes at some inconvenient time when I'm taxiing or doing the run up.

When flying to a controlled airport it's nice because you can tell them you have the ATIS for the destination well before you get handed off to the tower and then you basically only have to say "hi" to the tower controller because they already know who and where you are and that you've got the ATIS. For an uncontrolled airport they usually want to know that you've got the ASOS or AWOS and that you've got the airport in sight before terminating radar service.

The challenging part of FF for me is all the traffic advisories, because it really tests my ability to spot traffic and also to listen to the radio for my callsign while trying to fly the airplane and talk to my CFI at the same time :)
 
Sinistar said:
Nope.

Two different CFI's and both focused on VFR flight plans. Did most of my training at a Delta which is beneath a Bravo. We requested Bravo access twice (from ground control) but both attempts were met with "Remain outside the Bravo airspace" in the air as we neared it. One of those flights showed up on Flightaware thus that part of the question.

So not having ever used FF and trying to use all the tools at hand and prep for eventual instrument training are the reasons for the original question. Plus it seems safer. Time to learn it!

Once i am comfortable using traffic advisories then i will work on the Bravo entry to save time heading east.
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Just another fine example of CFIs giving sub par instruction.
Once you do it a couple of times you’ll feel comfortable. Do be intimidated y ATC. If you talk to class D tower, you can talk to anyone.
 
You should also know that on a slow day, if you cancel, they may continue to watch you. A friend of mine was flying from Houston to Fort Parker, near Mexia. He asked for flight following to Mexia. He terminated flight following, telling them he had the airport in sight and landed at Fort Parker, which at the time wasn't a charted airport. A little while later we heard fire trucks and police sirens in the distance and joked that someone probably thought a plane went down... they did! The controllers saw a plane disappear a few miles before it reached the destination. Lesson learned for me is, it won't hurt to tell them, "By the way, I'm actually landing short of the destination I gave you, at a private strip."
 
Sinistar said:
So I have never used flight following and want to start. I know who to call and I understand I may or may not get help. But I do have a few questions.

I will be requesting in the air after leaving a our uncontrolled airport. I plan on keep the initial call short like: "Them Skylane FullTailNumber VFR Request". When they say go ahead I plan to respond with: "Skylane FullTailNumber Position Request Flight Following To Destination"

Position: Do I give a reference to a nearest airport 'X' like: Five Southwest 'X' 4500"? Or do I need to give a reference to where I think the ATC is at like "40 West MSP 4500"?

Destination: For my destination I know I include the where ('W') but do I also specify the cruise altitude?

FlightAware: When receiving radar services will the flight track appear on FlightAware?

Arrival: If arriving at a towered field will they handoff to them so I don't have to make the normal initial contact? If flying to another uncontrolled field do I need to end it? Do they see it and end it? What if I am supposed to end it and forget?

I want to start using radar services. I'm very comfortable on the radio with most training at a often busy Delta. Just want to try and get this right, keep it concise....you know...not sound like a dork :)
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Have you read "SAY AGAIN, PLEASE"? Covers all of this in detail, with example transmissions. Available in CD form as RADIO COMMUNICATIONS TRAINER.


Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Have you read "SAY AGAIN, PLEASE"? Covers all of this in detail, with example transmissions. Available in CD form as RADIO COMMUNICATIONS TRAINER.


Bob Gardner
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Why yes I do Bob and I love your book! My wife bought it for me when I started my PPL lessons. It has been great for answering questions just like this one.

But I do like to ask here as well. I know there will be some noise, but I like hearing more answers from different angles. Usually there is a good consensus - as in this thread.
 
James331 said:
I don't bother with the names, I don't really care and it doesn't matter, I also drop the 1, since they all start with one. I also drop the altitude unless I'm in a climb or decent or restricted, Aside from that same

So

Podunk Approach: “Bugsmasher 123, contact Springfield center at 123.9”
Me: “23.9”
(Switch to 123.9)
Me: “Bugsmasher 123”
Click to expand...

You’ll get a lot of altitude verifications with that. ATC is required (VFR or IFR) to confirm your mode C after an interfacility handoff. Without it, your altitude is unverified and can’t be used for separation purposes (if required).
 
Sinistar said:
Nope.

Two different CFI's and both focused on VFR flight plans. Did most of my training at a Delta which is beneath a Bravo. We requested Bravo access twice (from ground control) but both attempts were met with "Remain outside the Bravo airspace" in the air as we neared it. One of those flights showed up on Flightaware thus that part of the question.

So not having ever used FF and trying to use all the tools at hand and prep for eventual instrument training are the reasons for the original question. Plus it seems safer. Time to learn it!

Once i am comfortable using traffic advisories then i will work on the Bravo entry to save time heading east.
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Sorry to hear that your school failed you. It happens. Surprisingly more often than we'd like to admit.
And glad that you're getting good responses here.
As others said, it's no big deal if you've talked to Delta tower your whole training.
And you already read Bob's book, perfect.
 
Sinistar said:
Nope.

Two different CFI's and both focused on VFR flight plans. Did most of my training at a Delta which is beneath a Bravo. We requested Bravo access twice (from ground control) but both attempts were met with "Remain outside the Bravo airspace" in the air as we neared it. One of those flights showed up on Flightaware thus that part of the question.

So not having ever used FF and trying to use all the tools at hand and prep for eventual instrument training are the reasons for the original question. Plus it seems safer. Time to learn it!

Once i am comfortable using traffic advisories then i will work on the Bravo entry to save time heading east.
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I guess my D is slow and they have nothing better to do, I don't think I've ever requested FF from them, but if I do anything other than pattern work they give me a squawk code and a hand off to departure for traffic advisories. Maybe its because of the TRSA. Ground control gives me the code.
 
exncsurfer said:
I guess my D is slow and they have nothing better to do, I don't think I've ever requested FF from them, but if I do anything other than pattern work they give me a squawk code and a hand off to departure for traffic advisories. Maybe its because of the TRSA. Ground control gives me the code.
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Do you mention your destination to ground control? At my airport, specifying a destination is an implicit request for FF without actually having to say "flight following." Also, in my case if you ask for a left downwind departure from the primary runway it pretty much guarantees that you'll be entering neighboring class D or C airspace and so that also implicitly puts you on FF.
 
exncsurfer said:
I guess my D is slow and they have nothing better to do, I don't think I've ever requested FF from them, but if I do anything other than pattern work they give me a squawk code and a hand off to departure for traffic advisories. Maybe its because of the TRSA. Ground control gives me the code.
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It's not that they're bored. Here's their rules:

7−7−7. TRSA DEPARTURE INFORMATION
a. At controlled airports within the TRSA, inform
a departing aircraft proposing to operate within the
TRSA when to contact departure control and the
frequency to use. If the aircraft is properly equipped,
ground control or clearance delivery must issue the
appropriate beacon code.

NOTE−
Departing aircraft are assumed to want TRSA service
unless the pilot states, “negative TRSA service,” or makes
a similar comment. Pilots are expected to inform the
controller of intended destination and/or route of flight and
altitude
 
exncsurfer said:
I guess my D is slow and they have nothing better to do, I don't think I've ever requested FF from them, but if I do anything other than pattern work they give me a squawk code and a hand off to departure for traffic advisories. Maybe its because of the TRSA. Ground control gives me the code.
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It's because it's a TRSA.
 
Okay, so for every single flight I have done out of the Delta I have never once heard ground give out a xpdr code to someone unless they specifically asked for a code. So that is like 50+ flights over several months. This Delta (FCM) is under the MSP Bravo and even has part of the Bravo come down into the top of the Delta's airspace. And this goes for whether traffic was departing on the 28's (away from the Bravo) or on the 10's going more towards the Bravo.

So why then at this airport don't they assign xpdr codes for all outgoing traffic (excepting those indicating pattern work of course)?

Perhaps they might do it if you specify a exact destination such as another airport under the Bravo vs. a generic departure such as "Northwest Departure". I just don't ever recall hearing a xpdr code being given out vs requested? Now you can see why I am asking all this stuff!
 
Velocity173 said:
You’ll get a lot of altitude verifications with that. ATC is required (VFR or IFR) to confirm your mode C after an interfacility handoff. Without it, your altitude is unverified and can’t be used for separation purposes (if required).
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Huh, I can't recall being asked for my altitude recently.
 
James331 said:
Huh, I can't recall being asked for my altitude recently.
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They’re not doing their job then.

5-2-17

Ensure that Mode C altitude readouts are valid after accepting an interfacility handoff, initial track start, track start from coast/suspend tabular list, missing, or unreasonable Mode C readouts. When an X is displayed adjacent to the Mode C, the Mode C altitude readout must be validated after the X is no longer displayed in the data block. (CTRD equipped tower cabs are not required to validate Mode C readouts after receiving interfacility handoffs from TRACONs according to the procedures in Para 5-4-3, Methods, subpara a4.)

It’s in the AIM 4-1-20 b3 as well.
 
Don't bother V, its bad ass James after all. :rolleyes:
 
Easy killer, didn't know they did that after every hand off, easy enough to add the altitude, learned something new on the ATC front.
 
Sinistar said:
Okay, so for every single flight I have done out of the Delta I have never once heard ground give out a xpdr code to someone unless they specifically asked for a code. So that is like 50+ flights over several months. This Delta (FCM) is under the MSP Bravo and even has part of the Bravo come down into the top of the Delta's airspace. And this goes for whether traffic was departing on the 28's (away from the Bravo) or on the 10's going more towards the Bravo.

So why then at this airport don't they assign xpdr codes for all outgoing traffic (excepting those indicating pattern work of course)?

Perhaps they might do it if you specify a exact destination such as another airport under the Bravo vs. a generic departure such as "Northwest Departure". I just don't ever recall hearing a xpdr code being given out vs requested? Now you can see why I am asking all this stuff!
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It depends on the airport. I did my PPL out of Chino (KCNO) and ground would give you a squawk if you asked for flight following. I tried to pick up FF once departing San Bernardino (KSBD) a few miles away and the tower said they didn't have the capability and to contact SoCal Approach in the air. I frequently fly into Chandler, AZ (KCHD) and they won't assign a squawk either, but if you tell them you are going to pick it up in the air they will give an early handoff to Phoenix Approach.
 
mscard88 said:
Don't bother V, its bad ass James after all. :rolleyes:
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Oh not that big of a deal. Don’t think I ever observed a bad mode C after an interfac handoff.

Now, I’d like to see James check in with facility ID though. That just irks me. ;)
 
On the approach question: with Minneapolis approach and center I've almost always had the flight following controller hand off to the tower. So, you just let tower know you are inbound to land and they are already aware of your position. Chicago is a different story. They usually terminate flight following before you get to a towered airport - even going to Midway. Occasionally they will hand off.
 
Volitation said:
When you give your destination, do they care if it’s not a direct route?
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Nope...well, not really. They just wanna know what to expect from ya. Barring any specific instructions you are not bound to any flight plan or routing while on FF and free to do whatever...they just like to have an idea of what that whatever is so they can anticipate your possible interaction with other traffic.

It may be common to hear them request "say route of flight...". I laugh I when I VFR pilots read off a massive list of waypoints like an IFR clearance followed by a sigh by ATC when what they really wanna hear is "up the coastline"...or "towards Santa Barbara then direct"...they want an idea if what to expect, not your point by point navlog.
 
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Volitation said:
When you give your destination, do they care if it’s not a direct route?
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They do for coordination purposes if it varies significantly from direct. When they type your route into the NAS computer, it uses algorithms to compute which different ATC facilities you cross into. The computer sends each facility along your route a strip and an estimated time you’ll enter their airspace. Allows each controller to do an automated handoff.
 
Sinistar said:
Why yes I do Bob and I love your book! My wife bought it for me when I started my PPL lessons. It has been great for answering questions just like this one.

But I do like to ask here as well. I know there will be some noise, but I like hearing more answers from different angles. Usually there is a good consensus - as in this thread.
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Reviewing page 5-8 in SAP, what change in text would you suggest? I think that I covered all the bases there. Insofar as a handoff from an approach controller to a tower is concerned, the controller's handbook tells a controller

2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.

There is an inherent conflict in that the AIM tells pilots to establish communications with the tower prior to entering the Class D while the controller's manual puts the ball in their court. My practice has been to give the approach controller a little nudge if a handoff is not forthcoming: "Buzzbomb 34X is going to the tower." "34X, frequency change approved" is the usual response.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
Reviewing page 5-8 in SAP, what change in text would you suggest? I think that I covered all the bases there. Insofar as a handoff from an approach controller to a tower is concerned, the controller's handbook tells a controller

2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.

There is an inherent conflict in that the AIM tells pilots to establish communications with the tower prior to entering the Class D while the controller's manual puts the ball in their court. My practice has been to give the approach controller a little nudge if a handoff is not forthcoming: "Buzzbomb 34X is going to the tower." "34X, frequency change approved" is the usual response.

Bob
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I think the AIM wording is a simplified version of the communications requirement. 91.129 doesn’t specifically mention to contact tower at a Class D for arrival or through flight, only on departing. It just says to contact the “ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace...” There’s good reason why it doesn’t mention tower specifically. If one is receiving FF or, basic radar services, they’re getting that service from the overlying approach or center and not the class D tower. That’s why in the controller’s manual, the radar facility is required to get a transition approval through each surface area for aircraft receiving basic radar services.

Another example of an aircraft not being up tower’s freq while in the D is an aircraft conducting a radar approach. By being under control of the final controller, one is communicating to “the ATC facility providing air traffic services” before entering and while in the class D. It’s the RFC’s job to coordinate the arrival (and landing clearance), just as approach / center coordinate a FF transition.

I’d agree in that a FF arrival SHOULD be up the tower freq prior to entering the D. While they can coordinate a late freq change after penetration, If I haven’t been told by radar to expect a late freq change, then I’ll prompt them as in your example.
 
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Velocity173 said:
I think the AIM wording is a simplified version of the communications requirement. 91.129 doesn’t specifically mention to contact tower at a Class D for arrival or through flight, only on departing. It just says to contact the “ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace...” There’s good reason why it doesn’t mention tower specifically. If one is receiving FF or, basic radar services, they’re getting that service from the overlying approach or center and not the class D tower. That’s why in the controller’s manual, the radar facility is required to get a transition approval through each surface area for aircraft receiving basic radar services.

Another example of an aircraft not being up tower’s freq while in the D is an aircraft conducting a radar approach. By being under control of the final controller, one is communicating to “the ATC facility providing air traffic services” before entering and while in the class D. It’s the RFC’s job to coordinate the arrival (and landing clearance), just as approach / center coordinate a FF transition.

I’d agree in that a FF arrival SHOULD be up the tower freq prior to entering the D. While they can coordinate a late freq change after penetration, If I haven’t been told by radar to expect a late freq change, then I’ll prompt them as in your example.
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Right. But newbies and low-time pilots who have had the regs drummed into their heads for knowledge test reasons are more likely to think that the onus is on them until they get more comfortable operating in the system. To many, the voice in their ear is the voice of authority, not to be questioned. How may times have you heard a pilot say "Request permission to....." and gritted your teeth?

(As a lowly student pilot i once ran off the runway and into the weeds in response to "Turn right next taxiway" when I was rolling a tad too fast.)

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
There is an inherent conflict in that the AIM tells pilots to establish communications with the tower prior to entering the Class D while the controller's manual puts the ball in their court. My practice has been to give the approach controller a little nudge if a handoff is not forthcoming: "Buzzbomb 34X is going to the tower." "34X, frequency change approved" is the usual response.
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In many years of flying, I have gotten dumped into two different Deltas late, by the previous controller.

One specifically told me to stay with him because that tower was launching a jet off the runway and it would be turning into me. The other time they just forgot and I prodded them late.

Both times the tower controller was mad. At least the one time I could tell him to ring up the approach guy because he had told me to stay with him. They didn’t coordinate well that day.

Both incidents changed my long term behavior to do what you do... prod. Sooner.

Another polite way to prod is ...

“Approach, Cessna 123 has ATIS X-Ray at XXX, airport in sight.”

99% of the time the response is, “Contact Tower...”
 
(As a lowly student pilot i once ran off the runway and into the weeds in response to "Turn right next taxiway" when I was rolling a tad too fast.)
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I was returning to OSH during the show a few years back after we had the F-16 run off the end of the runway. Tower tells me after landing on 36R to taxi off the end of the runway...pause...intentionally.
 
bobmrg said:
Reviewing page 5-8 in SAP, what change in text would you suggest? I think that I covered all the bases there. Insofar as a handoff from an approach controller to a tower is concerned, the controller's handbook tells a controller

2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.

There is an inherent conflict in that the AIM tells pilots to establish communications with the tower prior to entering the Class D while the controller's manual puts the ball in their court. My practice has been to give the approach controller a little nudge if a handoff is not forthcoming: "Buzzbomb 34X is going to the tower." "34X, frequency change approved" is the usual response.

Bob
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Sage advice. Give them a nudge, draw their eyes to you on the scope. Keep it short and simple. This is not the time for 'who they are, who you are, blah blah.' "tower for Buzzbomb 34X" is a good one to
 
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