A question for the engineers...

Sac Arrow said:
On the consulting side, there are two tracks. One is pure engineering, and the other is business development and company management. The guys (and girls) on the latter track pull down bigger salaries than those on the former. By a wide margin.
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Agree. I did mostly proposal development and review plus a bit of organizational restructuring. Being a job shopper in design work might be good for those who like pure engineering but the big bucks are on the other side.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
Agree. I did mostly proposal development and review plus a bit of organizational restructuring. Being a job shopper in design work might be good for those who like pure engineering but the big bucks are on the other side.

Cheers
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One of the most thankless jobs in a consulting firm is the marketing manager. Pure production. Transforms the text of the scope in to coherent English, puts together the appropriate quals, and lays it out in to a professional format, usually on an inhumane deadline. Day after day, and night after night.
 
Sac Arrow said:
On the consulting side, there are two tracks. One is pure engineering, and the other is business development and company management. The guys (and girls) on the latter track pull down bigger salaries than those on the former. By a wide margin.
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What really floored me was when I found out what the sales guys were making, I then knew why they were usually smiling.

I was lucky in my career, I worked for a couple real dinks, in small companies, after not getting hired to the big flashy companies some of my friends landed jobs at. I learned a lot from those dinks. One hired a great VP of manufacturing. I had the title of Engineering Manager, he pulled me in and showed me the business side of things, cost accounting, purchasing, scheduling how to read a P & L, he loved that stuff and liked learning it. Of course his motivation was to have me understand so I could provide what he needed on a series of new products we had coming out, so my knowing what he taught me helped him more than it helped me, until I got out on my own.
 
Contract DERs can make some serious money. When I was contracting our motto was "death before direct"
 
paflyer said:
Management, not engineers.
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If you've been practicing for decades, you well know that is the choice you make. If you want to keep being a real engineer, you have to accept that you are relatively modular part of any organization and will only be compensated as such. You want more money you have to go management or start a firm of your own. This has been the quandry for decades. When I left Purdue 20 years ago, I had contemporaries returning after only two or three years...to get MBAs. Not because they didn't like their big salaries, but because the writing was on the wall about the upper career limits of continuing to "just" do engineering.
 
X3 Skier said:
There’s always a place for a technical person who’s good at what they do, even if it’s making buggy whips.

Cheers
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That’s true - I have made a pretty good living at it. I always tell young people to learn every skill they can - especially when someone else is paying for it.
For the new grad - there should be plenty of jobs in the Cleveland area for Engineers. I haven’t been on the job market for 15 years - but there were always ME jobs in that area. He may try a temp service - a lot of them pay benefits and he can learn valuable skills.
 
Sac Arrow said:
On the consulting side, there are two tracks. One is pure engineering, and the other is business development and company management. The guys (and girls) on the latter track pull down bigger salaries than those on the former. By a wide margin.
Click to expand...

If one has the temperament to go consulting (and not everyone is cut out for that) you want to be a partner. That's where the real money is.
 
J4000 said:
Get a tome of Dilbert cartoons, and read EVERY ONE OF THEM because THEY ARE ALL TRUE. I finally escaped engineering after experiencing sufficient doses of Dilbertism to where I just couldn't take it anymore. My condolences to your newly minted ME. Remember, engineers that flunk out go into accounting. Then when they get the acct degree, they proceed to get an MBA....and then they actually do the BA part....and then the engineers end up sucking up to the flunked out engineers for their raises, and all their project budgets and cost analysis gets second-guessed by that flunked out engineer who got the MBA. Enjoy that....I never did. Now I do my own BA with my own B. Read DIlbert about who gets promoted.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Dilbert is not a comic strip. Dilbert is a documentary. And I've worked for that pointy haired boss.
 
Ghery said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Dilbert is not a comic strip. Dilbert is a documentary. And I've worked for that pointy haired boss.
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You and me both! Except Dilbert does software, and I've always been in manufacturing, mostly medical devices. I could swear that at several points, his cubicle was just down the hall from mine . . . . .
 
Hank S said:
You and me both! Except Dilbert does software, and I've always been in manufacturing, mostly medical devices. I could swear that at several points, his cubicle was just down the hall from mine . . . . .
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There are times when I'd have sworn Scott Adams had a spy camera in my office.
 
I don't know what's keeping this kid in Cleveland, but I've been getting a lot of inquiries from Pittsburgh lately; mostly medical, but some stuff that's a little more "modeling mechanical systems in code". I hear that it's a great city.
 
I would be worried if I was the kid, I went three months on the job search and was yanking my hair out from stressing about not having a job in my field. Rule #1 as an engineering, be willing to move. I have a brother in law that went to school in IL and works in CO, I went to school in WA and work in IN, my uncle went to school in NC and works in WA, my wife went to school in IL and ended up in CA and WA for jobs. Rule #2 take the E.I.T.; engineers today, especially ones just out of school see no need for it, it is something to set you out from the rest and show you are interested in a career not just a job. Rule #3 have someone else go through your resume and practice interviews. Engineers suck at communication, both written and verbal. Seems strange to me that we come out of school severally lacking in these areas when I would say my job is 95% that and 5% math. Play up the CAD experience, I work with ~ 20 engineers and we end up farming out a lot of CAD work because only one of us knows the CAD software we use well enough to really use it.
 
Ghery said:
. . .That's asking a lot, engineering and managing people are two entirely different worlds (and skill sets).
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Exactly. It's one of the cruxes of the typical employment structure. Almost every person who advances by being excellent in their field of expertise (sales, engineering, marketing, accounting, operations, etc.) is expected to be a competent and effective manager as well. Management skills are not generally taught much, if at all, and often leads to poor performance as a whole. Not everyone who excels should be a manager, as they often operate on different frequencies so-to-speak.

PaulS said:
I'm always amazed at how short engineers sell themselves. If you can get a bachelor's degree in engineering you have all the aptitude you need to run a company, to analyze financial reports and make strategic decisions. In fact, after you gain experience in a company you are probably in a position to make better decisions than the "business" experts.
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Well, to be honest, I'm not sure that whether one has a BA in Engineering has much to do with it. Hell, even elementary education (not a dig at that) will show enough aptitude to be able to run a company. Running a company when small isn't much of a game in mental gymnastics once you understand how a basic set of financial statements work. The problem starts when an engineer (or any profession) is really good at being an engineer, but suffers from not constantly evaluating the bottom-line for a project or proposal. Engineers often love to get enveloped in their work, and may not always be able to separate their enjoyment of a project with the profit/payback aspects.

More than 50% of business start-ups fail in the first 3-5 years, and those include businesses started by intelligent engineers. Developing a sustainable business strategy, creating a niche product, sourcing customers, understanding cash flow/tax effects, etc. all play a role in whether a business succeeds, not to mention external factors. In theory, tons of people with advanced technical degrees should be adept at running their own businesses, but history shows that in practice, it doesn't always translate so easily.
 
GRG55 said:
If one has the temperament to go consulting (and not everyone is cut out for that) you want to be a partner. That's where the real money is.
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Yep. And it's a tough road.
 
PaulS said:
What really floored me was when I found out what the sales guys were making, I then knew why they were usually smiling.

I was lucky in my career, I worked for a couple real dinks, in small companies, after not getting hired to the big flashy companies some of my friends landed jobs at. I learned a lot from those dinks. One hired a great VP of manufacturing. I had the title of Engineering Manager, he pulled me in and showed me the business side of things, cost accounting, purchasing, scheduling how to read a P & L, he loved that stuff and liked learning it. Of course his motivation was to have me understand so I could provide what he needed on a series of new products we had coming out, so my knowing what he taught me helped him more than it helped me, until I got out on my own.
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When I graduated with my ME degree, one of the companies that had on-campus interviews was Babcock and Wilcox. But, the position was for a sales engineer. Most engineers HATE sales. One of my friends described the interview. Dude was an ex-Navy sub reactor tech and currently worked at a nuclear plant during the decommissioning phase, and was a natural shoe-in for the job.

Dude: "And anyway, that's my background."
Lady: "Sigh. You really don't want this job, do you?"
Dude: "Honestly? No."
Lady: "Nobody does."
 
I had an uncle and a second cousin that were 4 years apart in age. My uncle graduated as an EE from RPI (in the lower half) at the same time my second cousin graduated high school. They both went down to the the GE plant in downtown Philadelphia looking for a job, and they both came back looking glum and disappointed. The uncle admitted that he didn't get the job. The cousin was glum because he did get the job, working on the factory floor.

The Uncle got a call about a month later offering him a starting position as an EE. About 2 years later he was "promoted" into sales.

Fast forward about 40 years. The cousin was still working on the factory floor until they closed the factory. By the end of his career, the Uncle was 2 positions under Jack Welch. He had moved around the world about every 2 or 3 years, including a position as GM in charge of sales (of nuclear reactors) in S.E. Asia. GE had a great moving package then, and every time he moved he sold one house and bought another. He retired a multi-millionaire. The cousin had a heart attack and died a year after they closed the factory.
 
GRG55 said:
If one has the temperament to go consulting (and not everyone is cut out for that) you want to be a partner. That's where the real money is.
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I love being a consultant. I get paid to hang out at airports ranging from LAX to Put-in-Bay, Ohio and everything in between.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Exactly. It's one of the cruxes of the typical employment structure. Almost every person who advances by being excellent in their field of expertise (sales, engineering, marketing, accounting, operations, etc.) is expected to be a competent and effective manager as well. Management skills are not generally taught much, if at all, and often leads to poor performance as a whole. Not everyone who excels should be a manager, as they often operate on different frequencies so-to-speak.



Well, to be honest, I'm not sure that whether one has a BA in Engineering has much to do with it. Hell, even elementary education (not a dig at that) will show enough aptitude to be able to run a company. Running a company when small isn't much of a game in mental gymnastics once you understand how a basic set of financial statements work. The problem starts when an engineer (or any profession) is really good at being an engineer, but suffers from not constantly evaluating the bottom-line for a project or proposal. Engineers often love to get enveloped in their work, and may not always be able to separate their enjoyment of a project with the profit/payback aspects.

More than 50% of business start-ups fail in the first 3-5 years, and those include businesses started by intelligent engineers. Developing a sustainable business strategy, creating a niche product, sourcing customers, understanding cash flow/tax effects, etc. all play a role in whether a business succeeds, not to mention external factors. In theory, tons of people with advanced technical degrees should be adept at running their own businesses, but history shows that in practice, it doesn't always translate so easily.
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Yes, it's not rocket science, running a company, but you need to have open eyes and understand why you are in business and what keeps a business going, first and foremost, it's money. I used to sit people down and ask them what our first goal was as a company. I would get answers like, make the customer happy, make quality products and so on, I would tell them those are good answers, but the correct answer is to make money. If we lose sight of that then we will be unable to do the other things and will eventually go out of business. A lot of engineers don't or refuse to understand that, they make poor entrepreneurs.
 
PaulS said:
Yes, it's not rocket science, running a company, but you need to have open eyes and understand why you are in business and what keeps a business going, first and foremost, it's money. I used to sit people down and ask them what our first goal was as a company. I would get answers like, make the customer happy, make quality products and so on, I would tell them those are good answers, but the correct answer is to make money. If we lose sight of that then we will be unable to do the other things and will eventually go out of business. A lot of engineers don't or refuse to understand that, they make poor entrepreneurs.
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PaulS said:
Yes, it's not rocket science, running a company, but you need to have open eyes and understand why you are in business and what keeps a business going, first and foremost, it's money. I used to sit people down and ask them what our first goal was as a company. I would get answers like, make the customer happy, make quality products and so on, I would tell them those are good answers, but the correct answer is to make money. If we lose sight of that then we will be unable to do the other things and will eventually go out of business. A lot of engineers don't or refuse to understand that, they make poor entrepreneurs.
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"Hey, Mr. Arrow! I got the job done ahead of schedule and under budget!"

"Umm, great, but... you did bill for the whole budget, right?"
 
Sac Arrow said:
"Hey, Mr. Arrow! I got the job done ahead of schedule and under budget!"

"Umm, great, but... you did bill for the whole budget, right?"
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Depends on whether the contract is fixed price or cost plus multiplier. I know which one I like better!
 
Ken Ibold said:
Depends on whether the contract is fixed price or cost plus multiplier. I know which one I like better!
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99% of the time it's a T&M with a fee cap, which effectively makes it a fixed price contract.
 
Sac Arrow said:
99% of the time it's a T&M with a fee cap, which effectively makes it a fixed price contract.
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Do some structural guys work on "per piece of reinforcing steel shown" contract structure? If so, we have one on my current project. We're starting a pour in a few hours that has 3 mats of #9's on 12" centers both ways, and some sections have a bunch of #12 bars.

Embedded in the pour are a bunch of other doo-dads that aren't oriented square to the mats, and get their own rebar details.

Barely room for concrete. I think the man either gets paid by the piece he draws, or has a big ownership stake in Gerdau.
 
A
jaymark6655 said:
I would be worried if I was the kid, I went three months on the job search and was yanking my hair out from stressing about not having a job in my field. Rule #1 as an engineering, be willing to move. I have a brother in law that went to school in IL and works in CO, I went to school in WA and work in IN, my uncle went to school in NC and works in WA, my wife went to school in IL and ended up in CA and WA for jobs. Rule #2 take the E.I.T.; engineers today, especially ones just out of school see no need for it, it is something to set you out from the rest and show you are interested in a career not just a job. Rule #3 have someone else go through your resume and practice interviews. Engineers suck at communication, both written and verbal. Seems strange to me that we come out of school severally lacking in these areas when I would say my job is 95% that and 5% math. Play up the CAD experience, I work with ~ 20 engineers and we end up farming out a lot of CAD work because only one of us knows the CAD software we use well enough to really use it.
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Agree, communication seems to be a problem. I have a side job writing AMMs and task cards for aircraft, the biggest part of it is translating from engineer to mechanic.
 
Sac Arrow said:
99% of the time it's a T&M with a fee cap, which effectively makes it a fixed price contract.
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This is why my employer makes a real effort not to hire consultants. The sense is that they go full monty on billing every time. Our work rules go something like this:

1) Only hire consultants if absolutely necessary.
2) Create a very clear scope for them. Get a fixed price for their scope of work.
3) Bring them in, work with them to get what you need done, and run them out the door so they don't get lost in the hallways and create more billing opportunities (I mean work) for themselves.
4) While they are in our facilities, milk them for every scrap of knowledge you can.

I had a consulting firm bill one of my projects an extra $100k because "They provided more on-site help than they'd planned."

Um, did you ask anyone before you brought in the additional resources? No? Did you mention that unless X, Y, or Z was addressed, there would be additional fees? No? Did someone working for my employer switch the agreement to T&M? No?

Request denied.
 
kyleb said:
This is why my employer makes a real effort not to hire consultants. The sense is that they go full monty on billing every time. Our work rules go something like this:

1) Only hire consultants if absolutely necessary.
2) Create a very clear scope for them. Get a fixed price for their scope of work.
3) Bring them in, work with them to get what you need done, and run them out the door so they don't get lost in the hallways and create more billing opportunities (I mean work) for themselves.
4) While they are in our facilities, milk them for every scrap of knowledge you can.

I had a consulting firm bill one of my projects an extra $100k because "They provided more on-site help than they'd planned."

Um, did you ask anyone before you brought in the additional resources? No? Did you mention that unless X, Y, or Z was addressed, there would be additional fees? No? Did someone working for my employer switch the agreement to T&M? No?

Request denied.
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Look, it's always a game. The agencies know it's a fixed fee, they expect results, if we don't deliver, we work until we get it right. What ****es me off is when they pretend it's their own money and want to short you when you want to have full billings. In the the long run, we always fall short. We usually buy the project for what we think we can sell it for knowing we will take a loss. On some rare occasions, we will be ahead of the game and if we try to recover our budget we are treated like mother rapists.
 
Sac Arrow said:
99% of the time it's a T&M with a fee cap, which effectively makes it a fixed price contract.
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About 3/4ths of ours are fixed price. Much easier from an administrative standpoint. Some clients micromanage cost-plus (with not to exceed amounts) to the point that the admin costs drive overhead through the roof.
 
PaulS said:
Yes, it's not rocket science, running a company, but you need to have open eyes and understand why you are in business and what keeps a business going, first and foremost, it's money. I used to sit people down and ask them what our first goal was as a company. I would get answers like, make the customer happy, make quality products and so on, I would tell them those are good answers, but the correct answer is to make money. If we lose sight of that then we will be unable to do the other things and will eventually go out of business. A lot of engineers don't or refuse to understand that, they make poor entrepreneurs.
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So, what kinds of companies are these retreating engineers running, or starting? Perhaps this is a starting point for another thread....
 
He could go into the Air Force and fly for many years, even becoming a test pilot, then work in the Pentagon and go on to be a Division Chief at Wright Patterson...
 
Morgan3820 said:
Ditto that. Tell him to add a resume' to USAjob.gov . He will get an offer. Remind him that the guberment starts with a low entry pay but advances pay quickly. My group with NAVAIR has added over a hundred engineers last year and has been told to add another 125 next year. Almost 100% of them will be recent grads.
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Same with my group in Jacksonville. We are hiring another 100 or so ME/AE this year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
PaulS said:
Yes, it's not rocket science, running a company, but you need to have open eyes and understand why you are in business and what keeps a business going, first and foremost, it's money. I used to sit people down and ask them what our first goal was as a company. I would get answers like, make the customer happy, make quality products and so on, I would tell them those are good answers, but the correct answer is to make money. If we lose sight of that then we will be unable to do the other things and will eventually go out of business. A lot of engineers don't or refuse to understand that, they make poor entrepreneurs.
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It is no worse in engineering than it is in any other business. And there is a balance - **** on the customer and they won't be a customer long. Same with product quality, unless you sell cheap which is contrary to making money.

The world is littered with the carcasses of companies where the people running them forgot about making money. That's not an engineering thing.... Restaurants tend to have that problem, for example.

If you don't make a profit, you're running a hobby. And profit is not foremost of mind if the company is about the lifestyle of the founders.
 
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