cfd408
Pre-Flight
I'm looking to join a club based out of KAPA - Centennial, Colorado. If anyone knows of a club that is open to a new member, please forward contact information and details.
Wanted: Club Membership KAPA - DENVER, CO
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cfd408
Pre-Flight
I'm open to any situation that would make it more affordable to fly on a regular basis. I haven't checked the KAPA website for list of companies.. thanks for the idea.
Theboys
Line Up and Wait
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Theboys
Pretty sure aspen flying club is still there
SkyHog
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
Aspen flying club is amazing. But it's really just a rental outfit with a monthly fee. Huge selection of planes though, and partner rental outfits across the Denver metro.
I eventually left AFC for a club (ownership stake) based out of KFLY. If you can find something like that in the metro area you would be golden.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's what I meant with the phrase "for profit company with the word club in it"
cfd408
Pre-Flight
Aspen is still there.. but as Murphey pointed out..
denverpilot
Tied Down
They even have non-member rental rates now, so the monthly isn’t required. It’s higher and not going to help the OP, but mentioning it just for completeness.
I don’t know if it’s limited to dual or whatever, I just used it when I needed an hour or so with one of their CFIs in the Citabria.
John Myers
Pre-takeoff checklist
Aspen (including alliance at FTG and western at BJC) isn't really a club as much as a rental outfit. I've had some issues there, and I'll just say it's clear it's a for-profit operation, and not a well run one at that.
If you're doing primary or IFR training, it's probably as good a place as any and you're not likely to run into issues with the policies and maintenance as much as you would on the trip birds, or at least it won't be as big of an issue. Happiness = reality - expectations
If you're doing primary or IFR training, it's probably as good a place as any and you're not likely to run into issues with the policies and maintenance as much as you would on the trip birds, or at least it won't be as big of an issue. Happiness = reality - expectations
kjwalker01
Pre-takeoff checklist
Would you mind sharing some issues that you had there, John? I recently moved up here and am looking at them for a bunch of training (mountain flying, commercial), as well as ongoing rentals. Always good to know where the bodies are buried!
codeeno
Pre-takeoff checklist
I used Centennial Flyers for a while. Your money goes pretty far and doesn't get sucked in admin fees.
https://www.apaflyers.com/
Dean
https://www.apaflyers.com/
Dean
John Myers
Pre-takeoff checklist
They just aren't very organized, and when something goes wrong, no one really works to resolve it. This has been expensive for me personally, and more than that it's just a sort of gross feeling to send 5 emails and have no one respond, or call someone a few times and get no call back. I've been in the front desk area and overheard staff complaining about other members or staff openly. Not really why I started flying.
The other issue is maintenance itself. I usually try to rent their supercharged SR22 G2 when it's available, and it has what seems to be a bad manifold pressure sensor (as one example). It's been reported several times by several pilots and the squawks are all closed as "unable to reproduce". I was returning from salt lake one evening and it's scary to see the manifold pressure slowly drop, scarier still to have it not taken seriously. I was told the other SR22 they had caught fire, fortunately on the ground.
All that said, if you don't expect a club atmosphere, and expect little from them in terms of good faith operation, they're really the only game in town that has that large of a fleet and reasonable rates. There are also some great people there, and good instructors, mixed in with the bad.
There's been talk of some members there starting a new *not for profit* club, but as far as I know that's all it is so far.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It did. I never heard why. Vaguely remember it had just come out of maintenance.
CAP crew in the run-up area ran over and put it out with their on-board extinguisher, which I heard grounded the CAP aircraft for quite a while, while their budgetary bureaucracy worked to eventually buy the 182 a new extinguisher. (Mandatory on-board per their rules.)
No good deed goes unpunished I guess.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Aspen is a "club" only because it has the word in its name. It is definitely for-profit. Lots of profit.
My observations:
1) Problem with the front desk - whoever is on duty, and it's usually one of the CFIs who doesn't have anything else to do. Far too often doesn't know how to run a desk or understand customer service. I went in a couple months ago asking for a CFI with specific skills - the desk kid had no clue who had those skills. (Gee, I found out in about 30 seconds on the website - the desk should have a list of current CFIs and specialties).
2) While I was there, 3 CFIs walked in, and the desk kid suggested I talk to one of them. I asked one of them how many current private students and how many current instrument students he had, and how many he had successfully taken to checkride. He didn't know. His reply was something about maybe 2 private and 1 instrument. It was obvious he was a brand-new CFII. My comment to him was that I wasn't interested in a beginner CFI, nothing personal.
3) There are "professional" CFIs there, people who do nothing but teach, but the majority of CFIs are building time. I got caught in that back in the late 90s when I started my lessons with them. Doesn't seem anything has changed other than the interior design of the offices.
4) No one was interested in taking my name and number as a potential customer. On the other hand, I wasn't expecting them to. The desk people have zero concept of customer service or marketing.
My observations:
1) Problem with the front desk - whoever is on duty, and it's usually one of the CFIs who doesn't have anything else to do. Far too often doesn't know how to run a desk or understand customer service. I went in a couple months ago asking for a CFI with specific skills - the desk kid had no clue who had those skills. (Gee, I found out in about 30 seconds on the website - the desk should have a list of current CFIs and specialties).
2) While I was there, 3 CFIs walked in, and the desk kid suggested I talk to one of them. I asked one of them how many current private students and how many current instrument students he had, and how many he had successfully taken to checkride. He didn't know. His reply was something about maybe 2 private and 1 instrument. It was obvious he was a brand-new CFII. My comment to him was that I wasn't interested in a beginner CFI, nothing personal.
3) There are "professional" CFIs there, people who do nothing but teach, but the majority of CFIs are building time. I got caught in that back in the late 90s when I started my lessons with them. Doesn't seem anything has changed other than the interior design of the offices.
4) No one was interested in taking my name and number as a potential customer. On the other hand, I wasn't expecting them to. The desk people have zero concept of customer service or marketing.
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SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
My one problem with Aspen, which was enough to chase me off - they moved the 182 to a new hangar the day I was supposed to fly it. No one told me, and since I was scheduled to leave right when everyone was going home, I had to walk the ramp for like an hour before I gave up and called the club President (the only number that would answer). Found the hangar, but there was no hangar key in the book.
Had to call the president again and he recommended I look through the other books to find one that might have the hangar key. I finally found the key but it was starting to get dark (2.5 hours after my scheduled departure) so i pushed my flight to Albuquerque to the next day. Weather sucked, and I wound up taking off and returning back a few minutes later once i learned it was not going to be flyable.
Not even so much as an apology for the trouble. And the people at the desk didn't give a single care except to collect the money for my flight time (like 25 minutes worth). One even have the gall to mention that since it was booked all weekend they probably wouldn't be able to rent it again like it was my fault they couldn't be assed to move the key and let people know where it moved.
Canceled my membership and bought into the partnership down south the next week. Haven't looked back since
Had to call the president again and he recommended I look through the other books to find one that might have the hangar key. I finally found the key but it was starting to get dark (2.5 hours after my scheduled departure) so i pushed my flight to Albuquerque to the next day. Weather sucked, and I wound up taking off and returning back a few minutes later once i learned it was not going to be flyable.
Not even so much as an apology for the trouble. And the people at the desk didn't give a single care except to collect the money for my flight time (like 25 minutes worth). One even have the gall to mention that since it was booked all weekend they probably wouldn't be able to rent it again like it was my fault they couldn't be assed to move the key and let people know where it moved.
Canceled my membership and bought into the partnership down south the next week. Haven't looked back since
kjwalker01
Pre-takeoff checklist
I appreciate the followup comments. I started walking into the various clubs and schools yesterday to get a feel for the place and talk with whoever was there. I'll probably continue that this weekend. I'm not in a huge rush, so I'll take my time. Definitely leery of Aspen now, though.
Mtns2Skies
Final Approach
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Aspen bought Western air flying academy at BJC and I have nothing but positives to say about Aspen during my time there. Western has greatly improved under Aspen's ownership, atleast as I can tell by being a patron. The only negative I have is when I asked the chief pilot of Aspen (not Western, Jackie is fantastic) about permission for flying to a (HUGE, well kept) dirt runway he was a pretty huge dick and acted like no airplane had ever landed off asphalt before. This sure peeved me as I have quite a bit of experience not just landing on unimproved runways but landing off airport. Anyway, that probably doesn't apply to you and I've thoroughly enjoyed Aspen at BJC.
Lachlan
En-Route
Nothing but positive things to say about AFC. No buy-in, $35/month dues, very good wet rates. Many aircraft, several different mfgs, online scheduling through a Flight Scheduler Pro. Most small “clubs” are just incorporated partial ownerships with moderate to high buy-in costs and hourly rates for maintenance, engine reserve, etc, plus fuel, that rival or exceed AFC’s wet rates. Anyone who had any issues with them probably has a legitimate gripe, just as anyone (like me) who raves about them probably has a legitimate amount of great experiences with them. That’s just the way the world works.
I have witnessed, more than once, pilots returning aircraft that they insisted they fueled up at other airports but forgot the receipts, and DEMANDED they be credited for the fuel without proof of number of gallons or cost. Unreasonable. More reasonable = “I will get my receipt or card statement and bring it in for credit later, tomorrow, next time, via email, fax, etc.” Nope. Renter says “NOW!!!”
Personal ownership is nice, but AFC is great in my opinion. Take it with whatever view you choose. Put it this way: we moved 1800 miles away 1.5 yrs ago and I miss AFC every time I want to go flying and can’t rent anything nearby. Nearest rental is almost an hour away and is a solitary old 172 for $150/hr wet. Plus fees. So many fees...
I have witnessed, more than once, pilots returning aircraft that they insisted they fueled up at other airports but forgot the receipts, and DEMANDED they be credited for the fuel without proof of number of gallons or cost. Unreasonable. More reasonable = “I will get my receipt or card statement and bring it in for credit later, tomorrow, next time, via email, fax, etc.” Nope. Renter says “NOW!!!”
Personal ownership is nice, but AFC is great in my opinion. Take it with whatever view you choose. Put it this way: we moved 1800 miles away 1.5 yrs ago and I miss AFC every time I want to go flying and can’t rent anything nearby. Nearest rental is almost an hour away and is a solitary old 172 for $150/hr wet. Plus fees. So many fees...
John Myers
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think anyone who runs a retail business has stories about unreasonable customers. That's not a good reason to treat the rest of them poorly. Glad you haven't had any issues.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The stories I keep hearing about all the local clubs (I won’t call them schools, there’s very few actual schools or places trying to operate like schools...) is they’re horrid at returning phone calls, people make appointments to talk to an instructor and when they show up no instructors are anywhere to be found, and they ALL generally suck at customer service.
Mentioned this to a buddy who works at one of them and his response was, “I give my direct cell to all my students. They all know the front desk is useless. We book the airplanes online, never through the desk.” In other words, cultural and he’s not even going to bother to tell anyone because they won’t fix it.
Was joking with @Clark1961 last night on the phone that there’s a business opportunity here for a school that will actually operate like a school and actually have a front desk person, return calls at set times, keep appointments with prospective pilots, etc... and then doing nothing but teaching.
But of course the reality is you’d go broke capitalizing it and getting the aircraft on leaseback or purchasing them.
And the other reality is if you’re looking for that, ATP expanded into Denver, for whatever that’s worth.
The folks I trained with are a small school-only place and not really a rental place, but with the current hiring climate and such, they need about three more full time instructors, a single engine retract, and a little more work on the voice mail messages and stuff to make it clear they’re a busy shop and call backs will be made at particular hours. I think they’re also looking for another 172 leaseback.
But they’re still 100% better than most folks are telling me the big clubs in Denver are behaving right now. At least on the customer contact side if these businesses.
It’s a given that CFIs are busy in the current hiring climate, but hiring a full time front desk person who can actually BOOK a CFI to be standing there when a prospective student walks in on a Tuesday, would be a start.
I suspect part of that is the CFI knows they’re not getting paid to do that and most have a full schedule of students in these “non-lean” times nowadays so the motivation to work prospects is very low. Not an insignificant number also have other jobs where they make the money to actually pay their rent, too. But that’s a whole different topic.
Mentioned this to a buddy who works at one of them and his response was, “I give my direct cell to all my students. They all know the front desk is useless. We book the airplanes online, never through the desk.” In other words, cultural and he’s not even going to bother to tell anyone because they won’t fix it.
Was joking with @Clark1961 last night on the phone that there’s a business opportunity here for a school that will actually operate like a school and actually have a front desk person, return calls at set times, keep appointments with prospective pilots, etc... and then doing nothing but teaching.
But of course the reality is you’d go broke capitalizing it and getting the aircraft on leaseback or purchasing them.
And the other reality is if you’re looking for that, ATP expanded into Denver, for whatever that’s worth.
The folks I trained with are a small school-only place and not really a rental place, but with the current hiring climate and such, they need about three more full time instructors, a single engine retract, and a little more work on the voice mail messages and stuff to make it clear they’re a busy shop and call backs will be made at particular hours. I think they’re also looking for another 172 leaseback.
But they’re still 100% better than most folks are telling me the big clubs in Denver are behaving right now. At least on the customer contact side if these businesses.
It’s a given that CFIs are busy in the current hiring climate, but hiring a full time front desk person who can actually BOOK a CFI to be standing there when a prospective student walks in on a Tuesday, would be a start.
I suspect part of that is the CFI knows they’re not getting paid to do that and most have a full schedule of students in these “non-lean” times nowadays so the motivation to work prospects is very low. Not an insignificant number also have other jobs where they make the money to actually pay their rent, too. But that’s a whole different topic.
Lachlan
En-Route
A place as big as AFC has an inventory worth approximately how much? A lot. Between club owned and leasebacks, the sheer number of airplanes is impressive. Cirrus, Cessna, Piper, Citabria, Tecnam, Great Lakes, Diamond... beat that selection with better rates and you’ll have pilots flocking to your door. Some of you sound like you’re expecting executive snob level service at some of the the lowest rental rates anywhere to be found. I never, ever had any trouble with phone service or front desk problems. I guess I was that one guy they must have all liked. The owners gave me their personal cell numbers, and actually knew me by name. The front desk people knew me by name and I was not a daily renter by any means. My membership ended 9/20/16 when we moved from CO. I guess things have changed. Too many people in Colorado now. I’m sure that’s a large part of it.
That said, I found a ‘61 C150A that I like, it’s affordable, in great shape, in annual, 300 hours on a recently rebuilt engine, and a STOL kit. Maybe I should start my own club of one. Someone please tell me to just buy it and fly it...
The owners gave me their personal cell numbers, and actually knew me by name. The front desk people knew me by name and I was not a daily renter by any means. My membership ended 9/20/16 when we moved from CO. I guess things have changed. Too many people in Colorado now. I’m sure that’s a large part of it.That said, I found a ‘61 C150A that I like, it’s affordable, in great shape, in annual, 300 hours on a recently rebuilt engine, and a STOL kit. Maybe I should start my own club of one. Someone please tell me to just buy it and fly it...
Mtns2Skies
Final Approach
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Mtns2Skies
denverpilot
Tied Down
Too much CFI hiring to airlines and other gigs. They’ve probably turned over the entire staff other than the long-timers there three times by now if you left Sept of 16. Definitely twice if not three.
Most instructors here right now will tell any new students who call and ask availability that they’re booked solid into June. That’s the other piece. It’s not really more people in Denver as the root cause although that’s part of it... it’s the mad rush to get hired by airlines and other flying jobs and all the mobility happening in the pilot job space right now.
The little school I was working with is doing multiple 100 hours on three aircraft with really only two full time instructors and a few who rent occasionally from them to do one-off ratings.
When times were a littlw harder for instructors they’d pay attention to the business side of things in their down time. I don’t know any instructors who have any if they don’t want to have any here right now.
ATP in that same timeframe since you left has an entire fleet of 172s and Seminoles parked behind TacAir now. All flying.
We’re not DVT yet but it’s not uncommon for the pattern to grow on the “touch and go runway” to six or seven during any particular one hour Hobbs stint in good weather.
Even FTG has two “schools” operating now. I remember (and you probably do too) when they could barely rent enough airplanes to survive. The eastward move of the city is helping them there.
Lachlan
En-Route
I remember FTG being a ghostown, yes. Sounds like some positive changes for the popularity of GA. APA could get pretty busy in the pattern back in 2015 when I first soloed. I can remember being one of seven in closed traffic more than once. It was actually great experience. I think if you learn to fly out of APA you can fly just about anywhere. I can hardly imagine the wait to take off. I’ve been number 8-9 for the active many times on busy days. I’d usually use take off on 10 and land 28 whenever I was leaving the pattern.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The wait sucks if you hit the timing wrong. I run up at C1 and after run up and call completely ready to go all the way to the runway nowadays so I don’t have to taxi to the north or south run up areas and get stuck there, and always hope for winds that’ll allow a 10 departure for us Area Hotel folk and maybe even a 28 return if I can.
Of course you know it does me no good if I ask for crash and dash.... then it’s always a 35R or 17L departure. They typically won’t circle you around to the other side from 10.
The way to alleviate that is to go do airwork first. Depart 10, airwork southeast, and return later for crash and dash on 35L or 17R.
If it’s 17R you’ll get told to follow Parker Road until there’s a gap to shoot you into and often you’ll be at the north end of the reservoir before you’re turned west to cross over and join in the fray. If 35L, it’ll be “fly west, report crossing I-25” and then they’ll turn you into any gaps in the pattern as a straight in.
Lachlan
En-Route
I used to do that same thing re. depart 10, fly around, decide to do a few t&g and call full stop after 3-4 decent landings. Always (always!) off 17R at the first taxiway, and needed power to get there quickly. I loved spot landings, especially short field stuff.
I still say the worst flying club is better than the best prison sentence. Or something like that.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
I would happily work 8am-2pm at Our Favorite Place as the Ops/Admin person, handling the calls & the paperwork. (sorry, I'm not giving up my teaching job at the university) I'm not even that expensive. Marketing isn't an issue there, but keeping up with the logistics is the real crunch. If I can run a $$ multi-million chunk of a multi-billion $$$ DOD program, this will be fun!
They've also been looking for another 172 for years - Bev asked if I knew of one long time ago. It's really a continuing need.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
That second school at FTG (actually, the first one) isn't really doing anything. Only 1 or 2 instructors willing to be based there, the others from Aspen don't want to drive up there. One of the instructors is full-time working on his MS in engineering at CU-Denver, and really doesn't have the time. The first school is an escape from the original school, when Aspen bought them. Original owner took the money & ran, took 3 experienced instructors with him and opened up the new school. Organizationally, they look the same - monthly fee, similar Ops manual, similar fees, monthly get-together, etc.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Interesting. An owner could do worse than them as far as maintenance goes. They really keep up on it.
Of course you’d also be told not asked to pay to fix things, and if you were trying to be a cheap owner, you’d lose that argument. You’d also have a significant knowledge base for how to fix things correctly though.
Heck I’ve asked a couple of questions about our Skylane and when the answer was a smile and “Don’t worry about that” I knew it was backed by a lot of years of experience fixing airplanes. In other words, dumb questions.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Interesting. I kinda wondered how the place was supporting two. Sounds like it’s supporting one and a half.
Honestly if you can deal with the tight airspace it’s a better place to go for approaches and crash and dash when the freaking wind isn’t blowing 40. Lots less radio chatter interrupting the instructor and student’s brain and cheaper gas by a small margin. Only way it could really be better would be to close the Tower. Ha. But that’ll never happen where it sits on the chart.
Gas used to be really good there but they wised up and not as big a difference now. If they’d offer MoGas, even if they only did it in summer season, that’d be a game changer around here in a number of ways.
Ironically the drive for me to either place is about the same time-wise except in winter when I wouldn’t want to be doing 50 on Kiowa-Bennett Road after a snow. Takes about ten more minutes to get there than APA for me, and it’s one long boring straight road with the cruise set. No real traffic ever.
Better parking too. I drove the dually up there the last time I was there. I don’t take the dually to APA unless I’m going to park it next to or inside the hangar. Of course the airport car really is the beater Subie... a proper CFI beater. It might need more rust before I can say that though. LOL.