Safety Pilot Agreement of Duties

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Those that ask for safety pilots, or those that act as safety pilots may find this information useful.

The last page with the signature line is optional. But the review of who does what and when does the right seat take over can make for a good pre-flight brief.
 

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Finding one who will get in the plane and stop all the crying, screaming and histrionics is also a big plus.
 
I find this a bit much. I suppose if I were offering my services as a safety pilot to random people I don't know, then maybe I'd want some kind of written agreement, but I don't want to sit right seat with some random person I don't know. (Maybe someday if I become a CFI, but that's a different story).
 
Holy crap!

That’s way to much paper work and over the top, IMO.

First, I wouldn’t ask anyone I didn’t know and already feel comfortable flying with to be my (eyes) safety pilot while I’m under the hood. Likewise I wouldn’t safety pilot for someone I haven’t been in the air with and trust.

Second, it’s a simple transfer of command for a traffic issue, obstacle clearance or threat to clear a situation by the safety pilot. Reviewed and Agreed to,prior to engine start.

Third, if there is an engine out I’m ripping off the foggles and looking to land the plane. I’ll rely on CRM for radios, checklists and such as a back up. Again, reviewed and agreed to, prior to start up.

Just my thoughts, it works for me. YMMV.
 
Looks like some lawyer,may have been involved. Looks like another CYA form. I usually only safety pilot for people I fly with on a regular basis.
 
Yea, If I was going with a buddy and he asked me if I could be a safety pilot so he could log an approach, I wouldn't be wiping out that nonsense.

I think all these situations take is some common sense. "You are my safety pilot, if something becomes unsafe, let me know. If immediate action is required and I'm under the hood, do what you need to do to keep us safe"
 
And that's why I always hire my CFI as the safety pilot. He is always way more worried than me, whether I am under the hood or not

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
This was not shared nor ever intended to be a written agreement between the two.

It's intended to be a discussion of who will be doing what.

Geez you guys take things to too big of an extreme. Makes me feel like I should not contribute here. And sorta explains why some really good people have departed.
 
AggieMike88 said:
This was not shared nor ever intended to be a written agreement between the two.

It's intended to be a discussion of who will be doing what.

Geez you guys take things to too big of an extreme. Makes me feel like I should not contribute here. And sorta explains why some really good people have departed.
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You may not intend to use it a written agreement but considering the sig line the author certainly intended it to be used as that.

Who was out of line here? People (including myself) was just saying it seems like a wee bit of a overthink. If it works for you or helps you formulate a plan- great. If some think it is is a little overkill, can they not say it? That is kind of the discussion part of a discussion board.

I'm not sure how anything that was said would make you feel like you shouldn't contribute??? Sorry if you took my post as an insult, def wasn't meant like that.
 
I think this a good tool the frame the discussion around. Covers most of the major stuff and should result in no surprises on when/why an unexpected transfer of control occurs.
 
My post wasn’t to bust your balls. It was just my opinion. Appreciate you starting the post for discussion.
 
flyingron said:
If you need assistance with obstacle clearance or something other than traffic or cloud distances, you probably should be flying with an instructor rather than just a safety pilot.
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If that’s for me, I was just throwing out scenarios.:rolleyes:
 
Didn’t we have a thread around here recently where one pilot was flying with another pilot and felt the guy was unsafe.

In a situation such as that, it’s clear neither pilot had a shared awareness of when and why a transfer of Control should occur.
 
Not a bad idea to verbalize ahead of time who is doing what. Well, actually, it is a very good idea.
However, the list is a little too long and convoluted for me. I don't think I would want to memorize all those items and try to recall which one applies in what scenarios. For me, simplicity is key. If I am the SP, I need to be looking outside, scanning for traffic and birds. As a PF, I would want to concentrate on my hand-flying of an approach. A complicated and convoluted list of duties would make my brain hurt while exercising my duties. But that's just me, I do not mean to superimpose this onto other pilots.
Just my $0.02.
 
Holy Chit...if someone presented me with that I would be too worried that I would have to consult back to the argument before taking action vs just saying "Hey dipchit..."

Discussion is one thing but not sure I would even get in the plane if someone wanted me to sign that.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Those that ask for safety pilots, or those that act as safety pilots may find this information useful.

The last page with the signature line is optional. But the review of who does what and when does the right seat take over can make for a good pre-flight brief.
Click to expand...

The function of a safety pilot is to provide a set of eyes for collision/terrain avoidance while the PIC's vision is obscured by a hood, not to take over in case of an emergency. There is no sharing of duties or transfer of responsibility. Period. The right seat does not "take over." This form is totally unnecessary.

Bob
 
The safety pilot is to keep you away from traffic, off the rocks and out of the clouds. And to say "my airplane" if something goes that badly wrong. Yes, I've had to do that. Ain't rocket science, gents.
 
bobmrg said:
The function of a safety pilot is to provide a set of eyes for collision/terrain avoidance while the PIC's vision is obscured by a hood,
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I'm going to go furhter. The function is purely the visual lookout for traffic and cloud clearance which the hooded pilot can not perform. Terrain avoidance is not something that should be needed (other than the safety pilot's own self-preservation). In actual, nobody is looking out for you hitting terrain. If you can not maintain terrain separation while flying simulated instruments, you need additional instruction rather than just a safety pilot.

Anyhow, any time you have more than one pilot on board a plane, it behooves you to determine your relative roles in advance. Don't want two people thinking they were both in control or worse, neither in control. Never think that your CFI buddy is actually willing or qualified to perform a role without asking. I remember CaptainRon hopping in my right seat (he had dropped his Cheetah off at the avionics shop) and telling me "I can be an instructor, a co-pilot, or a passenger. You pick, now."
 
How is it a bad idea to go over expectations of when the right side pilot will take over?

Ok, I get it, some here feel like it's just an attempt to be able afterward, if anything bad happens, to assign blame. They see it as a trap. I see it as they are trying to point out it is not a great idea to be making these kinds of decisions on the "fly" in real time. I would definitely want (maybe not codified) to go over the points in the tables. They are pretty clear and obvious. I'm just a student, it's possible I'm naive here, but I've had four different instructors (just VFR not even under the hood) and the range of going over who does what in case of a possible emergency is wide. I like to know what and who and when will take over.

Can someone explain to a newbie what the beef is here?
 
I think something like this is a good idea for time building operations where two pilots (who are possibly strangers) are paired up to fly. When I fly with another certificated pilot, whether as a CFI or safety pilot, I discuss the roles and responsibilities of all involved, although I don't use a written document like this.
 
TCABM said:
I think this a good tool the frame the discussion around. Covers most of the major stuff and should result in no surprises on when/why an unexpected transfer of control occurs.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. I flew with a friend the other day who had never performed as safety pilot before. We had a short discussion about expectations and then, throughout the flight, had a few “Oh yeah, and...”

Having something like this would’ve allowed all of those things to be discussed during the preflight briefing vs (slightly) changing the game on the fly.

Not that we would’ve filled it out and signed it, but... still would be a good starting point to cover the things someone unfamiliar with safety piloting might need to know.

One time I found my (non IR) safety pilot looking at the approach plate for so long, I took the hood off and we headed back to the airport. I think he was using the flight to “teach himself” instrument procedures, at the expense of keeping eyes outside.
 
LongRoadBob said:
How is it a bad idea to go over expectations of when the right side pilot will take over?

Ok, I get it, some here feel like it's just an attempt to be able afterward, if anything bad happens, to assign blame. They see it as a trap. I see it as they are trying to point out it is not a great idea to be making these kinds of decisions on the "fly" in real time. I would definitely want (maybe not codified) to go over the points in the tables. They are pretty clear and obvious. I'm just a student, it's possible I'm naive here, but I've had four different instructors (just VFR not even under the hood) and the range of going over who does what in case of a possible emergency is wide. I like to know what and who and when will take over.

Can someone explain to a newbie what the beef is here?
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Not sure that there is a beef. The pilot in command remains the pilot in command even if s/he is wearing a hood. All that is necessary in case of a hiccup is the removal of the hood. FAR 91.109 tells us what a safety pilot needs in the way of qualifications but does not anoint him/her as second-in-command."In case of an emergency" the PIC rips off the hood and takes it from there. There is no provision in the regulations for the safety pilot to "take over."

Bob
 
Yep, the regs are kind of vague about whether a non-PIC safety pilot is even second in command, but after trying to get some wording restored that were changed in the regs without proper comment in the NPRM, the legal counsel just claimed that they are not "seconds" and do not need to meet the SIC requirements, just what is literally in 91.109 and 61.3
 
bobmrg said:
Not sure that there is a beef. The pilot in command remains the pilot in command even if s/he is wearing a hood. All that is necessary in case of a hiccup is the removal of the hood. FAR 91.109 tells us what a safety pilot needs in the way of qualifications but does not anoint him/her as second-in-command."In case of an emergency" the PIC rips off the hood and takes it from there. There is no provision in the regulations for the safety pilot to "take over."

Bob
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I'm not just thinking about training with the hood though. As a pretty green student still, and four different CFI's, I can't recall discussing more than "I have control" "you have control" exchange about when the instructor would take over. We never discussed scenarios, or in what situations.
I will talk with my instructor when I get to fly again (has been socked in for over a week here, no improvement yet :) ) about this.

Thinking more about it, that signing off on paper does seem a bit overkill. I think they got it right about discussing the situations. You say the PIC can take off the hood, but in some cases wouldn't that be too late? Birds, or suddenly discovering other traffic with no time to spare to maneuver, etc.?
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm not just thinking about training with the hood though. As a pretty green student still, and four different CFI's, I can't recall discussing more than "I have control" "you have control" exchange about when the instructor would take over. We never discussed scenarios, or in what situations.
I will talk with my instructor when I get to fly again (has been socked in for over a week here, no improvement yet :) ) about this.

Thinking more about it, that signing off on paper does seem a bit overkill. I think they got it right about discussing the situations. You say the PIC can take off the hood, but in some cases wouldn't that be too late? Birds, or suddenly discovering other traffic with no time to spare to maneuver, etc.?
Click to expand...

Bird strikes in light aircraft in cruise (not takeoff or landing) are a rarity, so I will ignore that possibility. "Suddenly discovering other traffic" means that the safety pilot has failed in his/her primary (sole) responsibility. In an emergency, all regulation goes out the window and you do what needs to be done.

Bob
 
For me it'll be if the safety pilot really feels the need to take over then the safety pilot should do so. Better safe than sorry. If you trust the safety pilot than the worst that can happen is you'll have to repeat a practice approach.
 
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Having flown safety pilot, typically its a handshake agreement on whats expected. Frankly, the left seat pilot knows the AC better than the safety pilot. If SHTF, I would expect the foggles to come off and take control or work through it as a crew.

Your agreement/checklist isn't a bad idea, necessarily. Its virtually what you agree to verbally. Some may see it as overkill but its not a bad idea. I would sign it if I was flying safety pilot with someone. Its a CYA for everyone involved and I totally understand the reasoning behind it.

Its the same reason we have a "crew briefing" in the military prior to takeoff. You lay out who is responsible for what and its your opportunity to speak up if you aren't capable of doing something or have questions.
 
Ravioli said:
You're just being silly, right?
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I wasn't when I posted that but your question had me think about it for a second. I suppose it depends who you are flying with.

If its a CFI in the right seat with a lot more experience in type, then they would likely know that AC much better than the one under the foggles. But if you are sitting safety pilot for someone that owns the plane and you are there as a visual observer to meet the FAA's requirement, the foggle'd pilot may know the AC much better. Like most questions, I suppose the answer is "it depends" ;)
 
I’m going to need you to sign this agreement before I read your agreement. Just so we are on the same page as far as how we deal with agreements.
 
I did it in my plane and the safety pilot was a friend of mine. I just told him if we had a problem, any problem, I'd take off the foggles and I'd be the one in charge. I told him if a collision was imminent he was authorized to push the stick over to avoid a collision. That one is highly unlikely.
 
My briefing to the safety pilot goes something like this:

"I'd like you to answer traffic calls, and I will answer calls with instructions or clearances in them. If you see a hazard and you aren't confident that you can tell me about it in time for me to avoid it, I want you to take the controls and say "my airplane," and I will release the controls and say "your airplane."​
 
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