It's Official: Started PPL training today! Learning in our 182

as far as I know, new ACS standards says to demonstrate slow flight without activating stall horn. the maneuver you described, is the old PTS standard. but I will let other CFI's to comment on that.
 
WannFly said:
as far as I know, new ACS standards says to demonstrate slow flight without activating stall horn. the maneuver you described, is the old PTS standard. but I will let other CFI's to comment on that.
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Wow, thanks for sharing that. I actually don't mind flying it slower. And when it flies at like 42mph its actually quite amazing. But those right and left 360's are really right on the edge.
 
I believe that is correct Wann.
This is how my DPE explained to me, and this is from AOPA website:

Under the ACS guidance, slow flight is trained and tested at an airspeed that is five to 10 knots above the stall warning activation speed. Properly performed, the maneuver should not activate the stall warning system at all. But if it is activated, the pilot is expected to take prompt and positive stall recovery measures. If a stall warning is activated during a practical test, following the stall recovery procedure would not be grounds for failure. Failure to take any corrective action and ignoring the stall warning, however, would be considered unsatisfactory.

My DPE also asked that I call out any buffeting, or stall horn sounds. I think the philosophy is they want to see that someone can recognize warning signs before an actual stall occurs.

Funny enough, the stall horn was inop the whole checkride.
Made for a good laugh when I joked about my tinnitus masking it.
Until he said, here, put these foggles on.

Edit: here is more from AOPA

The shift in philosophy to demonstrate slow flight at a slow speed—but not as slow as possible—is aimed at eliminating a condition that potentially desensitizes pilots to stall warning indications, either preventing or delaying a pilot’s reaction to them should an unintentionally slow speed ever be encountered. The rationale is that if a pilot is trained from the beginning to instinctively add power and reduce the pitch attitude (angle of attack) whenever a stall warning is activated, the hope is that muscle memory will take over, especially in critical situations, and stall recoveries will always be prompt and effective—perhaps reversing a tendency for even seasoned professional pilots to sometimes fall prey to their inability to recognize and recover effectively from unintentional stalls.

Under this new training and testing protocol, it would be reasonable to conclude that a pilot would hear or see a stall warning system activation only when practicing stalls and stall recovery procedures. The continued practice of stalls during training is still—and will forever be—an essential part of learning how to avoid them in the first place. The ability to see, feel, and anticipate an approaching stall is a critical skill that only comes from effective stall training.

What do all these changes mean to you, the student? The new slow flight procedure still calls for precise heading, altitude, and coordination control. The only real difference is that the target speed for the maneuver is slightly faster. Successful completion will still demand a rapid scan between outside visual references and the flight instruments, making small, effective, and timely control inputs to quickly correct for any trends away from the desired readings. Challenging, yes—but easily doable with proper practice.
 
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Skyrys62 said:
I believe that is correct Wann.
This is how my DPE explained to me, and this is from AOPA website:

Under the ACS guidance, slow flight is trained and tested at an airspeed that is five to 10 knots above the stall warning activation speed. Properly performed, the maneuver should not activate the stall warning system at all. But if it is activated, the pilot is expected to take prompt and positive stall recovery measures. If a stall warning is activated during a practical test, following the stall recovery procedure would not be grounds for failure. Failure to take any corrective action and ignoring the stall warning, however, would be considered unsatisfactory.

My DPE also asked that I call out any buffeting, or stall horn sounds. I think the philosophy is they want to see that someone can recognize warning signs before an actual stall occurs.

Funny enough, the stall horn was inop the whole checkride.
Made for a good laugh when I joked about my tinnitus masking it.
Until he said, here, put these foggles on.

Edit: here is more from AOPA

The shift in philosophy to demonstrate slow flight at a slow speed—but not as slow as possible—is aimed at eliminating a condition that potentially desensitizes pilots to stall warning indications, either preventing or delaying a pilot’s reaction to them should an unintentionally slow speed ever be encountered. The rationale is that if a pilot is trained from the beginning to instinctively add power and reduce the pitch attitude (angle of attack) whenever a stall warning is activated, the hope is that muscle memory will take over, especially in critical situations, and stall recoveries will always be prompt and effective—perhaps reversing a tendency for even seasoned professional pilots to sometimes fall prey to their inability to recognize and recover effectively from unintentional stalls.

Under this new training and testing protocol, it would be reasonable to conclude that a pilot would hear or see a stall warning system activation only when practicing stalls and stall recovery procedures. The continued practice of stalls during training is still—and will forever be—an essential part of learning how to avoid them in the first place. The ability to see, feel, and anticipate an approaching stall is a critical skill that only comes from effective stall training.

What do all these changes mean to you, the student? The new slow flight procedure still calls for precise heading, altitude, and coordination control. The only real difference is that the target speed for the maneuver is slightly faster. Successful completion will still demand a rapid scan between outside visual references and the flight instruments, making small, effective, and timely control inputs to quickly correct for any trends away from the desired readings. Challenging, yes—but easily doable with proper practice.
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Thanks for sharing this. I actually don't mind either CFI approach...but I feel I'm learning a new way late in the game. I am going to chat with him about this, not confrontational..more like "Ahhh...confused over here". I think he knows the DPE's approach to things but I hate to bust the ride for doing 360's with the stall horn barring when a recovery should immediately performed.
 
Yeah I agree talking to him is a good idea.
Not sure what your 182 does, but the 172 stall speed was 44 dirty, so at 5-10 above that and we just came up with 50kts.
Mushed it around a minute and did a couple turns.
Next.
 
Per the POH, stall speed is 57mph CAS at flaps 40 and wings level. That's about 40mph indicated.

So with my new CFI, during this slow flight were obviously close and the POH shows a 30deg bank turn stall speed being exceeded.

Way back when we were doing slow flight at 57mph indicated it was probably 64mph CAS which was about 7mph above stall speed. So a pretty safe margin, especially when he made me do countless 30 deg bank turns, many of which were with foggles on (but I liked that practice!)
 
Sinistar said:
Per the POH, stall speed is 57mph CAS at flaps 40 and wings level. That's about 40mph indicated.

So with my new CFI, during this slow flight were obviously close and the POH shows a 30deg bank turn stall speed being exceeded.

Way back when we were doing slow flight at 57mph indicated it was probably 64mph CAS which was about 7mph above stall speed. So a pretty safe margin, especially when he made me do countless 30 deg bank turns, many of which were with foggles on (but I liked that practice!)
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U could ask ur DPE rt before the maneuver too. My DPE asked me what speed was I taught. U could ask I have been thought in 2 ways, ACS says 5-10 kts over stall speed, what do u want to see? I did one at 55 KTS, then told him I can do this at about 40 in dicatedor less using AOA , he wanted to see it, so I did L/D max slow flight with stall horn blaring, full control authority, after which he closed the throttle

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Slow flight when I started was stall horn on continuously, full flaps, making shallow turns. It’ll fly fine there. Feet must be connected to brain for keeping it coordinated especially in any turbulence.

FAA ACS slow flight is a hearing or sight test, not a flying test. Depending on your stall warning system. LOL.

Shamelessly stolen from Rod Machado who’s been on that warpath since the first ACS drafts came out.

Seriously though, learn to fly it slow, it’ll pay off in spades over the years and then just ask what the examiner wants to see on the ride. Flying it faster is ridiculously easy after flying it slow.

I call the two things different names nowadays to keep student confusion down. “Slow flight” gets the FAA standard applied to it, since that’s checkride material and definitions now.

“Minimum controllable airspeed” / MCA is what we used to call the stall horn blaring and flying just above stall and understanding how to keep it coordinated and making shallow turns understanding that steeper turns will raise stall speed above the speed we’re flying at...

Perhaps not accurate, but both “things” need a name now that FAA screwed up “slow flight”. Water under the bridge, but I wouldn’t let a student get away with doing only the FAA version, no way.

Knowing how the controls feel and what things sound like at “MCA” is one of those things that’ll be a subconscious or conscious hint to the pilot that they’re getting WAY too slow, that’ll help them the rest of their lives.

Not doing it could also help a pilot along to hurry up the rest of their life. Literally.

The thought process here is that ignoring a stall warning for that length of time builds a primacy that adversely affects the pilot. The critical teaching of that is that the horn MUST be ACKNOWLEDGED every time it sounds (stall, gear, coffee pot timer, doesn’t matter... if it beeps in a cockpit there must be a verbal announcement that the PIC hears it and is either a) Taking action to stop it, or b) A specific reason to NOT stake action is occurring and stated out loud.

But beyond that, flying slower SHOULD be in the repertoire. The horn shouldn’t be IGNORED but it CAN be announced and DEFERRED if the Flight profile demands it. MCA demands it.
 
WannFly said:
...after which he closed the throttle
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ROFL... they do tend to be sneaky like that, but you just must admit, it IS the perfect setup for them...

Can turn it into a stall recovery followed by having to accelerate to get to best glide for finding a suitable simulated engine out landing place, eh? :)

Nearly everything a candidate does is a setup for the next step in the test... something to always keep in mind on any checkride. Fun stuff. !

That’s pretty much how an instrument ride works. Okay, you did it with everything working, now crap is going to start to fail and it won’t be coming back before the ride is over with... time for approach number two from the published missed and hold coming out of approach number 1... Sweating over there yet?

Of course your instructor was usually more evil than the examiner has time to be, so you’re kinda used to it by the ride. You start wondering if all of the instruments working is actually normal for this aircraft... and more than a little paranoid that something must be wrong if the whole panel is operational. Hahahaha.
 
Congrats, and sounds like a good setup, minus the iPad, not a fan of learning with one from the start.

Ether way, have fun!
 
Update: Week 38 (~97hrs)
> Short Version: No flying, marking up documentation, nose-strut refill - again

Owner Stuff:
> Went and aired up the nose strut - again. Had another bought of -20's at night it collapsed again.
> Now I know at least one reason you fill it with the tail tied down. If you try to fill it or top it off with full weight on it, just a bump of the valve with the chuck before fill pressure is achieved will fully deflate it.
> Good news, total time to fill it was about 35 minutes from arrival to completely buttoned up again.
> FYI - A 182 with full tanks takes minimum 160lbs on the tail to be able to push it down with one hand. Once its rotated about 10 degress then it will start going tail first rather quickly. I clip it off to 2 bags of rock salt and then remove 40lbs from the tail. Seems to work well. I'm definitely going to look for an old floor jack and try preloading it with weights and "pull it down" vs putting all that weight near the elevator/empennage root.
> I left 40lbs on the tail to see if that slows this leak down until it warms up later this week....yes I will remove it :)

Pilot Stuff:
> No flying due to cold wx.
> Mainly just highlighting and tabbing in the FAR/AIM and NOAA wx book to get ready for the ride.
> Reviewed the POH again and created a very easy to read, always available table of all the V speeds, other speeds, etc.
> Created my first official personal minimums list.
> One of the items was to not do stalls, slowflight and repeated takeoffs whenever below +15F. Well the the warmest day was +4F. So I called it.
> I am glad I made that list. I've made everything (I could) a number so its harder to wiggle around it.
> Hopefully final instructor rides this week with Wed, Thurs, Fri all looking like decent flying day options.
> Another absolute minimum is to only do a pattern flight after any mx so even if I fly with the CFI, the first thing will be a takeoff and landing to check the strut. Last time we went right into nearly 2hrs of flight.

Lessons Learned:
> I probably hadn't really scoured the POH quite as good as I could have (eg. CAS vs IAS speeds).
> It is definitely easier to call flight when you have a specific value or number that is exceeded.
> Slow is smooth and smooth is fast...definitely applies to monkeying with an airplane mx.
 
WannFly said:
as far as I know, new ACS standards says to demonstrate slow flight without activating stall horn. the maneuver you described, is the old PTS standard. but I will let other CFI's to comment on that.
Click to expand...
Well.., slow flight always meant “slower than normal” flight when I came through the ranks.
Than we had this thing called MCA....
 
denverpilot said:
Trying to show off for your buddies regularly ends in things like that. Haha. “Hold my beer...” :)
Click to expand...

Think that was a competition, and not many pilots push the edge like that, not the best reaction to the stall, but I really wouldn't point too many fingers at those pilots.
 
James331 said:
Think that was a competition, and not many pilots push the edge like that, not the best reaction to the stall, but I really wouldn't point too many fingers at those pilots.
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Was it? I didn’t see a landing line. Looked more like not at a competition and just doing a whole runway length in the “hang it from the prop” mode, which is fine, but he was a number of too feet too high when the gust stalled the left wing. That’s what it looked like to me, anyway.

No skin off of my nose, it’s his airplane to wreck and rebuild. Competition or none. His call.
 
denverpilot said:
Was it? I didn’t see a landing line. Looked more like not at a competition and just doing a whole runway length in the “hang it from the prop” mode, which is fine, but he was a number of too feet too high when the gust stalled the left wing. That’s what it looked like to me, anyway.

No skin off of my nose, it’s his airplane to wreck and rebuild. Competition or none. His call.
Click to expand...


There are some threads on it, not sure if was a practice run or what, still not going to point fingers at people who compete at a high level in the STOL stuff. Like saying a race car driver can't drive because he put it into the wall once, this ain't a cirrus burger run, the guy is on the very edge of STOL
 
James331 said:
There are some threads on it, not sure if was a practice run or what, still not going to point fingers at people who compete at a high level in the STOL stuff. Like saying a race car driver can't drive because he put it into the wall once, this ain't a cirrus burger run, the guy is on the very edge of STOL
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Yep, like I said, his airplane to crash. We all know what happens eventually when we fly with no margin for airspeed. What goes up, must come down.
 
Sinistar said:
Update: Week 38 (~97hrs)
> Short Version: No flying, marking up documentation, nose-strut refill - again

Owner Stuff:
> Went and aired up the nose strut - again. Had another bought of -20's at night it collapsed again.
> Now I know at least one reason you fill it with the tail tied down. If you try to fill it or top it off with full weight on it, just a bump of the valve with the chuck before fill pressure is achieved will fully deflate it.
> Good news, total time to fill it was about 35 minutes from arrival to completely buttoned up again.
> FYI - A 182 with full tanks takes minimum 160lbs on the tail to be able to push it down with one hand. Once its rotated about 10 degress then it will start going tail first rather quickly. I clip it off to 2 bags of rock salt and then remove 40lbs from the tail. Seems to work well. I'm definitely going to look for an old floor jack and try preloading it with weights and "pull it down" vs putting all that weight near the elevator/empennage root.
> I left 40lbs on the tail to see if that slows this leak down until it warms up later this week....yes I will remove it :)

Pilot Stuff:
> No flying due to cold wx.
> Mainly just highlighting and tabbing in the FAR/AIM and NOAA wx book to get ready for the ride.
> Reviewed the POH again and created a very easy to read, always available table of all the V speeds, other speeds, etc.
> Created my first official personal minimums list.
> One of the items was to not do stalls, slowflight and repeated takeoffs whenever below +15F. Well the the warmest day was +4F. So I called it.
> I am glad I made that list. I've made everything (I could) a number so its harder to wiggle around it.
> Hopefully final instructor rides this week with Wed, Thurs, Fri all looking like decent flying day options.
> Another absolute minimum is to only do a pattern flight after any mx so even if I fly with the CFI, the first thing will be a takeoff and landing to check the strut. Last time we went right into nearly 2hrs of flight.

Lessons Learned:
> I probably hadn't really scoured the POH quite as good as I could have (eg. CAS vs IAS speeds).
> It is definitely easier to call flight when you have a specific value or number that is exceeded.
> Slow is smooth and smooth is fast...definitely applies to monkeying with an airplane mx.
Click to expand...

You probably already know this but your nose strut is filled with MIL5606 hydraulic fluid along with nitrogen. Just "airing it up" isn't really fixing the problem. Cold weather makes rubber O rings "roll" in the track which could be your problem meaning your strut needs a repair kit installed. I'm surprised you haven't seen a puddle of red fluid next to your tire. If not, perhaps it has leaked out enough that it doesn't leak any more which isn't a good thing. I haven't read the entire thread so perhaps that was addressed earlier and I missed it.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well.., slow flight always meant “slower than normal” flight when I came through the ranks.
Than we had this thing called MCA....
Click to expand...

Yep.

denverpilot said:
I call the two things different names nowadays to keep student confusion down. “Slow flight” gets the FAA standard applied to it, since that’s checkride material and definitions now.

“Minimum controllable airspeed” / MCA is what we used to call the stall horn blaring and flying just above stall and understanding how to keep it coordinated and making shallow turns understanding that steeper turns will raise stall speed above the speed we’re flying at...
Click to expand...

Slow flight is any speed below cruise speed (80, 65, 50 etc) . Minimum control airspeed is slow as you can go, any lower and you'll be approaching a stall, or stall. Stall horn usually blares 5-10 knots above stall. So now we teach slow flight for the check ride, but I personally also train students on MCA. I'm in agreement with Rod Machado too! :)
 
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Timbeck2 said:
You probably already know this but your nose strut is filled with MIL5606 hydraulic fluid along with nitrogen. Just "airing it up" isn't really fixing the problem. Cold weather makes rubber O rings "roll" in the track which could be your problem meaning your strut needs a repair kit installed. I'm surprised you haven't seen a puddle of red fluid next to your tire. If not, perhaps it has leaked out enough that it doesn't leak any more which isn't a good thing. I haven't read the entire thread so perhaps that was addressed earlier and I missed it.
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I do know that there is hydraulic fluid in the strut. And yes, there was a very tiny amount that probably leaked out. I didn't see it until pulled the tail down..it was around the tire. Pressure is holding nicely now that it has warmed up. Funny to watch it actually sit higher now than when I filled it. I will be replacing the nose wheel tire soon and will have them service it again. Thanks again for responding and I will be watching to see if any more leaks.

So yet another dumb aviation question...what happens if there is no fluid left in the strut but there is still air pressure?
 
Update: Week 39 (~100hrs)
> Short Version: Great mock check ride + 2 more practice flights.

Owner Stuff:
> Strut is holding pressure nicely again now that its warm. It actually sits a bit higher now that it has warmed up.

Pilot Stuff:
> Did another mock check ride and now good to go scheduling the actual ride :)
> After that 3+ week break I was pretty crappy at landings, nice to get back at it again.
> Murphy's law, the actualy ride will probably coincide with a VFR sectional and A/FD just expiring on Feb 1st.
> Given I am so far south on the Twin Cities sectional, I am planning for the worst case, that my check ride flight plan will span two sectionals (yuck) thus my concern since my current Omaha one expires on Feb 1st :( I'm getting pretty good at pilotage and dead reckoning...but two sectionals is even more of a cluster :)
> I am also planning on whatever I route I get will also most likely follow 1 or even 2 different Victor Airways. From what I have read it is okay for VFR traffic to use them...but be right on altitude as IFR traffic may also be using them. I have read that some people fly off to the side, etc. I'll be clarifying with the CFI when we next meet.
> Still reading the Aviation Weather book, trying to fully get through it once before the oral...wx is my kryptonite.

Lessons Learned:
> This time I followed my personal minimums. After airing up the strut I limited my self to a few pattern laps and landings and then full stopped. Everything looked good so CFI hopped in and we did another mock checkride.
> Did our first turning stalls...pretty easy to recover those as well. CFI doesn't expect them on the checkride but nice to have now done them.
> I landed at a new airport that didn't have a taxiway. No big deal, just announce and backtaxi. However there was a row of hangars and I realized after I reached the end of the runway that I could have got off the runway back by the hangars and then back on at the start of the runway. However, I'm not sure for such short distance if planes not based there should taxi in that area.
> I can't know everything. I keep feeling like there is one more thing to learn, one more thing to study. At some point (now soon) it will be time to do this ride and be done :)
 
Sinistar said:
So yet another dumb aviation question...what happens if there is no fluid left in the strut but there is still air pressure?
Click to expand...

It’ll usually not work at all like that.

A lot of nosewheel airplanes have a lot of pitting in the chrome of the strut where rocks have hit them, etc. That surface not being smooth and clean will tear up the seals and then leaks start. The fluid ends up a sticky goop all over the nose linkage components.

Eventually it gets so bad the only repair options are replacement of the strut and seals, or having the strut re-chromed and replacement of the seals...

And then servicing with the correct amount of fluid and nitrogen.

Sometimes you can limp them along for years with minor leakage and cleanup. The sticky stuff will attract dirt and dirt riding up and down will tear up the seals too, so keep it all clean.

Says the guy who’s strut is leaking a tiny little bit and his whole airplane needs a serious degreasing of everything on the bottom and cleanup this spring, something fierce. But the strut is holding up well and not leaking down.

And then there’s the whole Cessna “shimmy dampener” problems that aren’t the dampener at all but are worn components, but people keep replacing the dampener...

Old machines can be fussy creatures, that’s for sure.
 
Update: Week 40+ !!!DONE!!!

> Checkride with DPE went great!
> Checkride was done at -6F , it was cold!!
> Rated me excellent on both portions, man that felt good!!!

Long Version will follow :)

I'll post final stats in the OP.
 
Congrats!!! Looking forward to hearing about your future adventures.

I’m kinda bummed though. It’s rare that someone posts their entire journey on POA (many with good intentions, few carry it through). Looked forward to the next post each time. I enjoyed your posts very much.

This should be a sticky maybe?
 
Nice job! Did Super Bowl traffic make it more interesting?
 
Fantastic! Congrats!!!!
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Congrats!!! Looking forward to hearing about your future adventures.

I’m kinda bummed though. It’s rare that someone posts their entire journey on POA (many with good intentions, few carry it through). Looked forward to the next post each time. I enjoyed your posts very much.

This should be a sticky maybe?
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Thanks @455 Bravo Uniform ! I never set out to have mine stickied and others write a lot better than I do. You guys were awesome for support, especially when in the lows and those "2 steps back..." times :)

I can't wait to just go and fly now. I have a short list of people I know that dare to go up. We have a few summer trip ideas. I will definitely meet @WannFly somewhere for lunch somewhere in our area. I am thinking of the instrument rating but I need a break for a bit and with my wife being a pilot, I can probably knock out some hood time with her. My current instructor will be awesome for instrument so I do want to get as much time as I can from him before he punches out for the big league. I have never flown into the Bravo and want to experience it (without problems!). And believe it or not I have never used flight following. So a lot "do it" stuff on my list.

I also enjoy photography but swore off any camera work while training. Maybe now I'll slowly introduce some camera work.
 
bdcobb said:
Nice job! Did Super Bowl traffic make it more interesting?
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Had I still been at FCM, I think it would have been crazy. There were rumors that people at FCM would be dumping planes off an nearby airports like ours and then renting out hangars for crazy amounts. The only thing I saw so far was a guy landed at the airport right after I finished my checkride (sweet SR22). He dropped off a passenger and then left again. During a brief chat he mentioned that crazy ramp/storage fees at FCM and that's why he landed at our instead. I think it was hundreds if not close to $1000 - not sure I understood that right but it was so bad he didn't even land there.

I just know that I am not flying tomorrow. It would be my luck I'd be off by like 5 miles and bust that TFR and all this for nothing. They have left intercept procedures at all the airports. You'd get to see a F-16 and/or Blackhawk up close and then arrested. No thanks. I might drive out to FCM and go in since I have the gate code and take a look at the closed runway with all the bizjets.
 
The original post now has all the numbers if you are curious or have questions.
 
I now have a very detailed summary of the entire check ride day. I did this for my CFI. I think its way too big to post here, yet it could be of use to someone.

If anyone wants a copy or has a suggestion of how to upload the simple document and link it, please let me know.

I think it would rival a @denverpilot post :)
 
Sinistar said:
I now have a very detailed summary of the entire check ride day. I did this for my CFI. I think its way too big to post here, yet it could be of use to someone.

If anyone wants a copy or has a suggestion of how to upload the simple document and link it, please let me know.

I think it would rival a @denverpilot post :)
Click to expand...
Congrats and if it’s already written, post away....
No one has to read it if they don’t want to.
 
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