CAP uniforms and engine warmups?

James331

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James331
So I thought CAP folks had to be in uniform when flying CAP planes, I'd also think they'd let the engine warm up a little before blasting off.

I was hanging out at a FBO, next to me two CAP dudes, wearing fancy business clothes, Rolex watch, one talking about how his rank sounds impressive, off they go, jump in the plane, pretty dang cold outside, fire it up 60 seconds later off they go.

For how much we all pay in taxes, if you want to fly a cheap plane for personal stuff, join a real flying club, CAP really needs to go bye bye IMO


[rant off]
 
I seen a CAP guy in uniform before. I think he was a captain sergeant or something. Looks like they got them from the Air Force surplus store.


Edit: Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I served in the Air Force for 24 years, I know what the uniform looks like and I stand by my observation of the CAP uniform. I also know that there is no such thing as a captain sergeant; their rank is just...wonkey.
 
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I seen a CAP guy in uniform before. I think he was a captain sergeant or something. Looks like they got them from the Air Force surplus store.

Yeah, at least they normally wear a uniform before they take taxpayer owned planes on joy rides, but just wearing your own business clothes, I mean we all know CAPs a taxpayer funded flying club, but no need to be that obvious about it
 
IBTL

I think it is good that people choose to participate in CAP and I don't question their motives.
 
CAP really needs to go bye bye IMO

Your opinion is noted. They will still come look for you if you ever crash.

Some of the CAP corporate uniforms look a lot like civilian dress. Additionally, the corporate uniforms allow the wear of civilian outerwear in cold weather.

Your post has the feeling of someone with a personal axe to grind who is looking for a reason to complain. Go out and live life and enjoy it.

Ah, what the heck....plonk...
 
Not a CAP member, but I was also under the impression that they had to be in uniform (not necessarily a flight suit, but one of the official uniforms) when flying a CAP aircraft.
 
You must also be one of those people who thinks the TSA is here to help protect us....

The TSA protects me from wearing dirty socks or socks with holes in them.

Other than that... they make my commute longer so I'm not what you'd call a fan of that "protection."
 
Not a CAP member, but I was also under the impression that they had to be in uniform (not necessarily a flight suit, but one of the official uniforms) when flying a CAP aircraft.

They do and I would bet they were. However for certain uniforms, any civilian outerwear is authorized, so especially in cold weather it can give the appearance of not being in uniform.
 
CAP members do not get paid and they pay for their own uniforms. They also pay for a good portion of their proficiency flying. Yeah, it costs less than flying a comparable aircraft at the FBO but it comes with restrictions such as limits on where and when you can fly. It is far from being a free ride for personal flying on the taxpayer dollar. Plus members are required to attend meetings and participate in activities. What 'free' flying there is comes with a fair amount of personal time and money being committed first.

Now as to the manner in which this particular crew conducted the flight and/or preflight. If you believe they did not properly operate the aircraft, then do some research and find out the name of their wing commander & stan/eval officer and give them a call. If you provide them with the date, time and airport that this happened at, I'm certain that they will be able to conduct a proper investigation and they most likely will. Unless of course, you just want to ***** on here so that you and your fellow CAP haters can get a boner.
 
They do and I would bet they were. However for certain uniforms, any civilian outerwear is authorized, so especially in cold weather it can give the appearance of not being in uniform.

Makes sense.
 
Your opinion is noted. They will still come look for you if you ever crash.

Some of the CAP corporate uniforms look a lot like civilian dress. Additionally, the corporate uniforms allow the wear of civilian outerwear in cold weather.

Your post has the feeling of someone with a personal axe to grind who is looking for a reason to complain. Go out and live life and enjoy it.

Ah, what the heck....plonk...

Ba ha ha ha!

No, if I go down it'll be the state police, company, or other pilots who find me, by the time the CAP gets done with their paperwork and whatnot there won't even be meat on my bones anymore, history shows their performance is horrible, and their safety record is also lacking.

It's one part military cosplay, one part tax payer force funded flying club.

Personal axe? Not really, just hate seeing all of our tax money flushed down a toilet with no ROI, and believe me I enjoy the chit out of life lol, but the difference is when I go fiddle fracking around in my plane with friends I pay for it myself, I don't subsidize it with money forcibly taken out of everyone else's paychecks. Again, if you think CAP is going to be your salvation you need to read up a little more on CAP.

Uniform wise unless polished pointy toed city slicker shoes, slacks, designer jackets and Rolex are part of the CAP uniform I'd say they weren't in uniform, also didn't see any cadets around, no planes down, nada, just a few guys taking a joy ride, but hey, maybe their had their CAP undies on.
 
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They could have been doing ,a mission pilot check out.
 
don't worry, thats not real tax payer money paying for that. It comes out of the pile of money that they just print out of thin air. There, don't you feel better now?
 
The lack of a preflight and a run-up/warm up would be slightly concerning. If they had to come in after hours and do a proficiency flight maybe they didn't have the time in their schedule to change into the regalia? As long as it wasn't t-shirts and flip flops and they weren't talking about heading to some business meeting or some other personal use.
 
So I thought CAP folks had to be in uniform when flying CAP planes, I'd also think they'd let the engine warm up a little before blasting off.

I was hanging out at a FBO, next to me two CAP dudes, wearing fancy business clothes, Rolex watch, one talking about how his rank sounds impressive, off they go, jump in the plane, pretty dang cold outside, fire it up 60 seconds later off they go.

For how much we all pay in taxes, if you want to fly a cheap plane for personal stuff, join a real flying club, CAP really needs to go bye bye IMO


[rant off]
The 2017 proposed DOD budget is $539 Billion. The CAP part of this budget is $35 Million or less than 0.005%. If we're talking saving money, how about getting rid of pork projects in the DOD and better management of overages such as the new VA hospital in Denver? Over $1 billion, still not finished, years late, and it's accepted that it will be understaffed. The GPS program, publicly admitted it's at least 2 years late, and the price tag, according to recent USAF public reports, over $6 billion when it was originally budgeted for less than a billion.

As for what seemed to be non-uniform, as mentioned here, there's the Corporate uniform, which really is common business attire- grey slacks white shirt, navy blazer.

Get off the CAP hostility tirade and pick on something that's truly useless, like that bridge to nowhere paid for with tax dollars. (alaska?) And other pork projects.

I will refrain from political comments but the DHS/Secret Service budget is being blown sky high with unexpected and unbudgeted travel. CAP budget is a pittance.
 
I'm down to elimante everything you mentioned...and more.

If the cap budget is that small will you be personally funding it for FY 2018?
 
I'm down to elimante everything you mentioned...and more.

If the cap budget is that small will you be personally funding it for FY 2018?
But doesn’t CAP actually serve a useful function? Do you want to do away with S&R?

Seems like a small price to pay if you ask me.
 
Yes, for CAP who often gets in the way with the S&R that shows results, I do want to do away with them.
 
Yes, for CAP who often gets in the way with the S&R that shows results, I do want to do away with them.
Really? Any data to support that?

Not to trying to challenge you and be a wise guy, rather I’m just truly ignorant about the subject matter.
 
Yes, for CAP who often gets in the way with the S&R that shows results, I do want to do away with them.
CAP is subject to both local and DOD laws - laws, not rules. Example, altho CAP is a 501(c)3, the budget flows thru USAF for administrative purposes. Hence, CAP is restricted by what it can legally do under Federal law. For example, in the event of an emergency, a state Governor can activate the state National Guard because the Guard belongs to the state. However, if the Governor wants Army or USAF support, the request must be made to the DOD and approved at the DOD level, not the state. For some requests, CAP comes under the same rules. Many CAP Wings (wing = state) have MOU (memo of understanding) with many state & local jurisdictions. Depending on the request, the MOU is sufficient and the DOD isn't involved which means the DOD & Federal $$$ are not involved.

It's the classic "follow the money". Unless it's an official USAF-sanctioned activity, Federal $$$ are not involved. State or local $$$ may be involved but are never used for training. There is a small pot of USAF $$$ available for training, but it's small. There are many training flights where zero government $$$ are involved - the people in the airplane pay for fuel, oil, and cost of renting the airplane.

The IGs office recently did an analysis for DHS for use of CAP. Again, because CAP comes under USAF laws, there are many activites that DHS would like to use CAP but are not allowed.

Any further discussion of what to do away with in the Federal budget would take this right into the now-defunct Spin Zone.
 
What kind of ****hole country has a quasi-military airplane force that allows its pilots to wear suits and fancy city slicker shoes? Let’s make America safe again!
 
What kind of ****hole country has a quasi-military airplane force that allows its pilots to wear suits and fancy city slicker shoes? Let’s make America safe again!

A ****hole country that's $20,000,000,000,000.00 in debt with a currency based on nothing lol

But legit, here's a good read on why CAP just needs to go away.
Quoted from another site and slightly redacted.

These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after **********.


1) There was an unconfirmed report in **** on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between *******. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at ***** -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) **** CAP (usually *******) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (****** and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the ****** Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in ****** -- where the plane was last seen. ****** had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including ******** had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "*****" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of **** requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the ****** Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near ****** -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP ***** and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One ****** National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.
Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the ***** area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) **** Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a ***** DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, ****** -- 11.2 miles east of the ***** Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.


The **** State Medical Examiner in *** states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!


I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!


We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you!


Back in the old days when they dropped depth charges on uboats that's one thing, but now they are a tax pay funded flying club that has zero service to the public and only gets in the way of the real professionals during SAR ops. Outside from SAR ops, their other minor services could be done in the private sector for much less overall (like escorting drones).
 
Your local sheriff doesn't have the resources (an airplane, an ELT sniffer, trained spotters, etc) to perform search missions out in the bush. An airplane goes down in the NE Georgia mountains, the Rockies, or some similar out of the way place, and CAP is all you've got. That mission is worthwhile, and would cost even more if it was assigned to the military or if every sheriff in every corner of the country was given an airplane and the required equipment.

James - regarding your original premise that the CAP guys climbed into a cold airplane and immediately launched, are you sure the airplane hadn't been preheated or flown an hour earlier?
 
Given James' frothing-at-the-mouth hatred of everything government related does anyone actually believe that the first post is a true account of what happened?
 
Your local sheriff doesn't have the resources (an airplane, an ELT sniffer, trained spotters, etc) to perform search missions out in the bush. An airplane goes down in the NE Georgia mountains, the Rockies, or some similar out of the way place, and CAP is all you've got. That mission is worthwhile, and would cost even more if it was assigned to the military or if every sheriff in every corner of the country was given an airplane and the required equipment.

James - regarding your original premise that the CAP guys climbed into a cold airplane and immediately launched, are you sure the airplane hadn't been preheated or flown an hour earlier?


Not sure about where you live, but our state police have helicopters which have actually found down aircraft, plus they are professional pilots who are much better trained, have some pretty nice equipment, use it more often and screw around less.

Same with our local Blackhawks.

And yes, even if it flew right before I saw them, with how long it was outside with no cowl cover and the single single digit temps and wind, if it were my plane, or if they had to personally 100% pay for its mx, doubt they would have been that quick to go.

I do like some government, but things like CAP are not the government we need.
 
...like that bridge to nowhere paid for with tax dollars. (alaska?)

IIRC, that bridge never got built. The plan was to allow development on an island. That island is where the airport is. Currently, you have to take a ferry to get to and from it. The bridge was scrapped due to input by people that had never been there. As a result, that village will not be expanding since they're already backed up to some really steep mountains.
 
IIRC, that bridge never got built. The plan was to allow development on an island. That island is where the airport is. Currently, you have to take a ferry to get to and from it. The bridge was scrapped due to input by people that had never been there. As a result, that village will not be expanding since they're already backed up to some really steep mountains.

Agreed, that bridge made sense vs a small ferry going back and forth all day. Some fun little bars in Ketchikan too
 
I think, like many large organizations, CAP can be hit or miss depending on the area. Maybe shifting the mission from S&R to more of an education/community outreach/flight training/military recruitment type goal might prolong the life of the organization as more advanced ELTs and other law enforcement/military groups are better equipped to handle S&R responsibilities.
 
...Maybe shifting the mission from S&R to more of an education/community outreach/flight training/military recruitment type goal might prolong the life of the organization ...

You mean like a flying club?

And why would you want to prolong its life?

Lots of flying clubs that are way easier to get into, don't cost much more, and don't cost tax payers a dime

Heck lots of glider clubs that cost even less than CAP and provide better training.
 
Tucson's "local sheriff" hangars next to me. They have all sorts of S&R equipment on several different airframes. They're kind of a big deal.
 
You mean like a flying club?

And why would you want to prolong its life?

Lots of flying clubs that are way easier to get into, don't cost much more, and don't cost tax payers a dime

Heck lots of glider clubs that cost even less than CAP and provide better training.

I'm thinking kinda along the lines of an recruitment aspect...get kids interested in military aviation, have some classes and let them fly a bit...It's not like CAP funding is anything ridiculous and instead of packing the whole thing up and getting rid of it maybe shifting the focus to something like this can provide some benefit.
 
I think perhaps a 540mil year for a military recruitment commercial/tool is a bit much, it's bad enough how much money we blow selling military and merica' for every sports game now, I mean if anything we need to be toning down our global occupation forces, we frankly don't have the money for it and it statically it has made us LESS safe.

It's like a tumor, you don't spend time trying to find how it's good for you, or making it pretty, you cut it off before it drains any more life out of you.
 
If CAP really were just a taxpayer-funded flying club, I wouldn't bother with it, because I also belong to two civilian flying clubs that have FAR less restrictions on what I can do with their airplanes. The only CAP flights that bear any resemblance at all to personal use are proficiency flights; we're required to use a list of CAP-specified tasks on those flights, and they're usually paid for by the pilots, not by taxpayers.

As for the idea that CAP is not worth what it costs, the over 100 people saved by CAP in fiscal 2017 might disagree. Considering the fact that CAP aircrews and most ground support personnel are not paid for their time, it's hard to see how the military or other government organizations could do it without having it cost a lot more than the 35 million a year that CAP gets.

https://www.cap.news/search--rescue-saves-surpass-century-mark-for-fiscal-2017/

500_savesbyyearhed.png
 
I think, like many large organizations, CAP can be hit or miss depending on the area. Maybe shifting the mission from S&R to more of an education/community outreach/flight training/military recruitment type goal might prolong the life of the organization as more advanced ELTs and other law enforcement/military groups are better equipped to handle S&R responsibilities.

The official channel for S&R goes through the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center. Other than pilots listening on 121.5, these are the people listening to the satellites that the new 406 ELTs talk to. For a while CAP has seen S&R for aircraft missions drop off, but that's because so many pilots didn't convert to the 406 ELTs and the AFRCC just wasn't getting their signals. As more people convert, the number of missions is growing again. I would disagree that there are people better equipped to handle the search aspect. There's absolutely groups who can rescue better, but if the GPS data isn't exact, finding is a challenge in the first place.

In terms of the mission, it is shifting to a lot of support for emergency management. As an example of that, CAP effectively photographed every inch of the New Jersey shore during the Hurricane Sandy response and also deployed people to Puerto Rico. Both of these were to support local government damage mapping, they didn't directly involve any federal budget dollars. Realistically, FEMA probably gave the money to the local governments.
 
I would hate to know your opinion of JRTC, just an excuse for kids to play military on the federal dime? If they had sat on the ramp we would be hearing about how much fuel they wasted and how they are the sole cause of global warming. I am not a member of CAP and have never been so I don't have too much to add to the argument that hasn't already been said. I do think their budget is quite a bit lower than 540 mil a year. Last year that I could find (2008) stated that 3.9 mil of funding came from states and 35 mil from congress while they provided an estimated 120 mil worth of services. All the rest of that funding came from members and fund raisers in the form of donated time. If anything I wish it had a stronger connection to the Air Force similar to the Coast Guard Aux and some stronger oversight to prevent the good 'ole boys club, but I don't see them as a waste of money and just a flying club.
 
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