Interview with a Millenial

dmspilot said:
My premise? I did not make that premise. I was responding it.

I do not know if it is correct or not. But if it is, I proposed an explanation.
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dmspilot said:
I blame that on the death of the PC. You no longer need to learn how a computer works. You can do almost anything with an iPhone or iPad that you used to need an actual computer to do. I wonder if schools and colleges even have "computer labs" anymore or if such a concept has become a historical relic.
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You couldn't operate a CBM or C64 without at least some rudimentary knowledge of how computers work. Data in and output, storage devices, calculations etc. My 11yo Is interested in those things but even with something as basic as a raspberry Pi it's so easy to forget about all of the back-end tech as it just boots up with a GUI.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Not sure how you can get through college without those skills. I guess I'm taking all the wrong classes.
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Get your bachelor's in comparative gender theory and underwater basketweaving and you too can enter the workplace utterly unprepared for work.
 
steingar said:
I bet I’ve interacted with more millennial than anyone reading this. They are just like the generation before them and the ones before that. Some of them give me tremendous hope for the future. Some less so. I suspect that’s the way it’s always been, though.
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I used to think that. Not so much anymore. Kids today say things to their parents that we would never have thought about saying, and it doesn't phase them. The new kids we've hired at work the last few years have no work ethic. Zero. They show up late, play on their phone, they couldn't possibly be glancing at the time during lunch. My 19 YO daughter is very much like this as well.

Ironically, my 16 YO son and many of his friends are the exact opposites. But the girl on the video could be my daughter.
 
dmspilot said:
Then you are misinterpreting it. And yes, I read all of your post. Obviously, an engineering program is going to have specialized equipment. I'm talking about labs for general education purposes (but not even a computer science program needs specialized equipment). The topic of discussion was not about a lack of computer skills among engineering graduates.
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To some extent 'computer lab' has become redundant in an age when every high schooler is issued an iPad with all his textbooks for the year on a subscription basis and if middle school just hands out a stack of chrome books at the beginning of science class.
I still think there is a need for 'computer lab' where everyone learns at least the very basic concepts of how computers work beyond 'i'll just get the app from itunes'. I am glad my kids have access to some STEM activities where they learn that you can make computers do things if you learn to speak their language, e.g. scratch. I
 
SkyDog58 said:
Aren’t they millennials?
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I believe they are 'Gen Z'. They were not around when the millennium started.

And yes, they are a source of hope. 3 years ago my nephew was a 'gamer' and you couldn't get him out of his cave. Now he is deciding between Yale and Harvard.
 
Funny, at one time the greatest generation was thought of as slackers wanting everything given to them.
 
I hang out and smoke cigars with a few Millennials. One is a dental student who will soon be buying his own practice. One is a Tesla rep with a mechanical and automotive engineering degree. One is a SAAS programmer who just received angel funding for his startup. The other is a chemist who is almost ready to patent a new way to kill bed bugs. Pretty cool kids to hang out and BS with if you ask me. The chemist is helping me perfect my anti-aging serum as we speak. He made his dad some hair growth cream a couple years ago and the results have been spectacular.

So yeah... not all Millennials are snowflakes. ;)
 
Through the entire history of man, day to day life has become, in general, more and more.....chushy. Less work, more leisure. Every generation has it easier than the one before in general. This is mostly a good thing. We have taken measures to enjoy life more and labor less.
Early generations spent all their time hunting to eat...and starved a lot. Then agrarian societies had people busting it, to grow a small crop to feed families or livestock - they did better. Things improved rapidly in the industrial up through the tech ages, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the average hrs worked/week has dramatically declined in the last 100 years.
Along with this comes allowing the children of each generation to enjoy more leisure than that of the generation before.
Not a judgment, just an observation.

We should not be surprised to soon hear Generation Z'ers complaining how the latest generation of kids (whatever name they get) 'have it easy and don't have any idea what it is like to work 30 hours per week.'
 
Also to be honest, I can count on one hand the number of people I have met like that in the video.
Let'sgoflying! said:
Through the entire history of man, day to day life has become, in general, more and more.....chushy. Less work, more leisure. Every generation has it easier than the one before in general. This is mostly a good thing. We have taken measures to enjoy life more and labor less.
Early generations spent all their time hunting to eat...and starved a lot. Then agrarian societies had people busting it, to grow a small crop to feed families or livestock - they did better. Things improved rapidly in the industrial up through the tech ages, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the average hrs worked/week has dramatically declined in the last 100 years.
Along with this comes allowing the children of each generation to enjoy more leisure than that of the generation before.
Not a judgment, just an observation.

We should not be surprised to soon hear Generation Z'ers complaining how the latest generation of kids (whatever name they get) 'have it easy and don't have any idea what it is like to work 30 hours per week.'
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Quoted for size:
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dmspilot said:
I blame that on the death of the PC. You no longer need to learn how a computer works. You can do almost anything with an iPhone or iPad that you used to need an actual computer to do. I wonder if schools and colleges even have "computer labs" anymore or if such a concept has become a historical relic.
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The PC is dead? That's news to me! Most college, and even public, libraries have computer labs for general use. It seems like most students purchase laptops (at least enough to where they talk about which laptop to buy during orientation) and even in liberal arts courses you must type everything you submit because the submission is usually online. So I really don't see how schools or colleges can get away without computer labs (unless they cannot afford them). On top of that, a lot of universities have online curriculums, which require the use and access to a computer. I guess I can't see how any college student could get away with not knowing how a computer works (at least from a Microsoft Office standpoint) when universities rely so heavily on online resources and submissions.
 
weilke said:
I believe they are 'Gen Z'. They were not around when the millennium started.

And yes, they are a source of hope. 3 years ago my nephew was a 'gamer' and you couldn't get him out of his cave. Now he is deciding between Yale and Harvard.
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Let me guess: Comparative Game Studies.
 
MrsMtns2Skies said:
The PC is dead? That's news to me!
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It seems like it is in the news on a regular basis:

The Death of the PC Has Not Been Greatly Exaggerated - Wired

The PC Is Dying, The Only Question Is How Fast - Forbes

The Laptop is Dead - PCWorld

P.C. Sales in U.S. Plunge - Barron's

MrsMtns2Skies said:
Most college, and even public, libraries have computer labs for general use. It seems like most students purchase laptops (at least enough to where they talk about which laptop to buy during orientation) and even in liberal arts courses you must type everything you submit because the submission is usually online. So I really don't see how schools or colleges can get away without computer labs (unless they cannot afford them). On top of that, a lot of universities have online curriculums, which require the use and access to a computer. I guess I can't see how any college student could get away with not knowing how a computer works (at least from a Microsoft Office standpoint) when universities rely so heavily on online resources and submissions.
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"Schools like the University of Virginia have concluded that the time has come to dismantle the community computer labs and put that money to more productive uses." Ars Technica

Now, I somewhat cherry picked these articles to demonstrate that my earlier claim shouldn't be such a shock. There are a good number of articles with the opposing viewpoint. I don't have a horse in such a debate.

So what reasons might technical skills among young people be getting worse as asserted by other posters (if indeed they are)?
 
paflyer said:
Let me guess: Comparative Game Studies.
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Close. Deciding between pre-law and pre-med.

When he was 10 or so, someone asked him what he wants to do when he grows up. His answer at the time was: 'whatever it is uncle Florian is doing'.
 
weilke said:
Close. Deciding between pre-law and pre-med.

When he was 10 or so, someone asked him what he wants to do when he grows up. His answer at the time was: 'whatever it is uncle Florian is doing'.
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My 7 year old is convinced he can make it rich by being a Ninja leader. We've encouraged him to flesh out his business plan before he commits a lot of resources to that.
 
Thanks for the sources! I gave each a quick skim so I can't comment much on their content, but on initial pass the argument seemed legit. I'd need more time to actually read them before I can come to a conclusion. I do think tablets and smartphones are on the rise, but since these can perform most of the functions of a laptop or desktop, I tend to think of them as minicomputers. Which means I have a different definition of a PC than is the true definition, i.e., I include a tablet as a personal computer. I do think my experience in college and high school was a bit skewed as I studied computer science, so not owning at least one laptop or desktop was unheard of. I tried to base my logic off the people I knew from my core requirements (i.e., English) but that's still biased. So that's probably why it came as a shock to me.

dmspilot said:
So what reasons might technical skills among young people be getting worse as asserted by other posters (if indeed they are)?
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I would posit that it isn't technical skill that's lacking, rather critical thinking. I definitely noticed a lack of good critical thinking skills and writing skills in my Intro to English class in college. Which goes back to the original post which stated that they tend not to vet sources and writing is poor (IIRC). So maybe it's not a lack of basic technical skill, such as Microsoft Word, but rather a lack of ability to critically think and adapt to a different environment where step by step instructions are not provided? Just my two cents.
 
I just love ridiculous threads like these (the original video was funny).

The Millennial generation is no more inept than any other generation. I’d guess that the ratio of those with poor work ethic and those who are high-functioning is roughly the same as the rest of the populace. It’s always the common opinion that the succeeding generations are always substandard to the preceding generation. It doesn’t matter which era you go back to.

Claiming that millennials aren’t computer-literate is patently false. There are a greater percentage of millennials who grew up with computers in the home and used than in any previous generation. They are usually proficient in the MS Office suite, as well as basic computer use. Now, I’m sure the argument can be made that they don’t understand how the various components interact as much, since the modern GUI has largely taken any need for understanding architecture and file structure out of the equation. It’s no fault of themselves, merely the product of technology advancement. However, with the advent of many primary and secondary schools bringing programming/coding into curriculum, I’d bet that turns around here soon.

As far as people being glued to their iThings, they’re probably the worst, but in the workplace it seems more correlated to type of job/function. I see 50yr old CS Reps or Admin Assistants plugging away at social media all day, just as much as the 20 yr olds. The 20 yr old engineers or machinists are too immersed in their job to be on Facebook all day. When the 60yr old can’t get on the network or has his iPhone acting funny, the millennials have no problem getting him squared away.


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MrsMtns2Skies said:
The PC is dead? That's news to me! Most college, and even public, libraries have computer labs for general use. It seems like most students purchase laptops (at least enough to where they talk about which laptop to buy during orientation) and even in liberal arts courses you must type everything you submit because the submission is usually online. So I really don't see how schools or colleges can get away without computer labs (unless they cannot afford them). On top of that, a lot of universities have online curriculums, which require the use and access to a computer. I guess I can't see how any college student could get away with not knowing how a computer works (at least from a Microsoft Office standpoint) when universities rely so heavily on online resources and submissions.
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None of this requires a 'computer lab' with banks of desktop PCs. The students are just told that they need a laptop/chromebook/tablet and they are given the wifi password for the campuswide system.
 
Dammit, just googled it and realized I am officially a millennial...used to joke about it but I really am, dammit!!!

This is what it must be like to find out you got the chirps or something, do I have to call all my ex girlfriends and warn them now, is this contagious??? Sh*t, I'm even typing this on an iPhone, Nooooooooooo


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All these labels are basically meaningless. I don’t believe that we even had generational labels until the baby boomers and that term wasn’t necessarily an attempt to create generational labels or definitions per se but was just a way to describe the surge in births. But the name stuck.

Another funny thing is that until Tom Brokaw published his book in 1998, the term “greatest generation” to describe the WW2 generation didn’t really exist. Now nearly everyone uses it. That was over 50 years after the war. Now we name generations as they are occurring. Utter nonsense.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Not sure how you can get through college without those skills. I guess I'm taking all the wrong classes.
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I think, in Liberal arts, some facility with word processing, maybe a bit with some graphics and perhaps stats software, will serve well enough. I didn't say they were completely clueless, just not demonstrating depth or breadth of understanding. Just short of experience, real world, using tech. Not to damn with faint praise, or cast them as unable to learn, just that the "tech savvy" stereotype for millennial's is overblown, as is the "tech challenged" for mid-older workers is off base.
 
I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint.

So said Hesiod in the 8th century BC . . . .

The more things change, the more they remain the same.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
It's difficult to establish hard boundaries. I feel like I'm a "Tweener"...too young for a Baby Boomer, too old for Gen X.
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Yup, same here. ‘83 baby. Some draw the millennial line in the early 80’s, some in the mid/late-80’s. I do feel there is a bit of a generation gap from the early 80’s to the early 90’s, which may have to do with rapid computer/technology advancements and internet which wasn’t nearly as developed during my childhood.


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weilke said:
None of this requires a 'computer lab' with banks of desktop PCs. The students are just told that they need a laptop/chromebook/tablet and they are given the wifi password for the campuswide system.
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True, they do not require a computer lab, but some schools provide them as they cannot assume all students have the money to buy laptops/chromebooks/tablets. I was not arguing that computer labs aren't dead. I definitely see the benefit from the university side to do away with computer labs and require laptops (see dmspilot's source from University of Virginia). I even state in my post that most students purchase laptops. I was arguing that PCs aren't dead (assuming you include tablets in the definition of PC) because all of those things I stated require a PC.
 
I was less than enthused with some of the new grads we hired a few years ago. I had to sit through weeks of six sigma training with a class of new hires. Most were on there phones, instant messaging each other and giggling at the instructor. A few paid close attention and several years later it was easy to predict which ones would excel.



Your "had to sit through" comment is telling. Honestly, they were likely on their phones and giggling at the instructor because Six Sigma in the wrong hands is horribly boring and unnecessarily complex. A better approach is one short class with a really good instructor providing an introduction and open discussion of Deming's 14 points for quality management.
 
MrsMtns2Skies said:
True, they do not require a computer lab, but some schools provide them as they cannot assume all students have the money to buy laptops/chromebooks/tablets. I was not arguing that computer labs aren't dead. I definitely see the benefit from the university side to do away with computer labs and require laptops (see dmspilot's source from University of Virginia). I even state in my post that most students purchase laptops. I was arguing that PCs aren't dead (assuming you include tablets in the definition of PC) because all of those things I stated require a PC.
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Sure, UVA can require you to pay $43,194 in tuition, but they can't expect you to buy a $300 laptop ;-)

Universities provide 'computer labs' for the same reason they still build elaborate 'libraries' even though the days of having to pull bound volumes of journals from the stacks are coming to an end. Its simply an expected element of a university education, just like football and drunken parties. None of this actually moves education forward, its just stuff you do at a university.
 
dmspilot said:
It seems like it is in the news on a regular basis:

The Death of the PC Has Not Been Greatly Exaggerated - Wired

The PC Is Dying, The Only Question Is How Fast - Forbes

The Laptop is Dead - PCWorld

P.C. Sales in U.S. Plunge - Barron's
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What is the stereotypical boom time of the PC you would say? Late 90's? PC sales for 2017 are up 300% since 1997. Car sales are up 12.5%. Is the car dead?

The press prints whatever headlines people will click on. "PC dying" will scare people who work on PCs. Click. Click.


Some new scenarios came up over the last decade or so that originally didn't exist for the PC - and it was never really good at those. People still bought lots of PC's for that regardless, but it's not needed anymore.

The top downloaded iPad apps today are NetFlix, Pandaro, Tinder, YouTube and HBO. Very popular of course, and used by many times the number of people than the original PC productivity apps. However, people eventually figured out that lying in bed with a laptop watching a movie is just not fun - so they switched. Wasn't really the PC's forte, and cannot blame people for not wanting to use it for that anymore. The slump you now see in sales is as a result of this.

Compare that to the top selling PC software - Microsoft Office, TurboTax, Photoshop/Abobe etc. It was that in the 90's, it's still that. The core PC scenarios are not going anywhere. Trying to use Excel on an iPad is as ridiculous as trying to watch NetFlix on your watch.
 
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weilke said:
Sure, UVA can require you to pay $43,194 in tuition, but they can't expect you to buy a $300 laptop ;-)

Universities provide 'computer labs' for the same reason they still build elaborate 'libraries' even though the days of having to pull bound volumes of journals from the stacks are coming to an end. Its simply an expected element of a university education, just like football and drunken parties. None of this actually moves education forward, its just stuff you do at a university.
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Very true, but some students do not pay full tuition because they get need-based scholarships :p. I do believe your reasoning more than "some students can't afford it". But, in the spirit of PoA discussions, I will continue to stubbornly stand by my arguments.
 
weilke said:
You couldn't operate a CBM or C64 without at least some rudimentary knowledge of how computers work. Data in and output, storage devices, calculations etc. My 11yo Is interested in those things but even with something as basic as a raspberry Pi it's so easy to forget about all of the back-end tech as it just boots up with a GUI.
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Get him an Arduino instead and some fun sensors. It would mean you have to learn it as well though - it's not something you can drop on a kids lap and say: "Go figure it out". But it's fun.
 
SkyDog58 said:
All these labels are basically meaningless.
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Oh no. You are absolutely wrong. We had training where I used to work where they explained the differences between the generations and how we had do design our product differently for each target gen. I don't remember much about it other than us boomers didn't understand technology because we didn't grow up with computers and stuff. Of course, that left me wondering who created all those computers for the younger generations to use since us geezers didn't know how they worked and all.
 
weilke said:
Sure, UVA can require you to pay $43,194 in tuition, but they can't expect you to buy a $300 laptop ;-)
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Where I work now, every undergrad gets a laptop with the software (Matlab, NX, etc.) they are expected to use when they register for classes.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Oh no. You are absolutely wrong. We had training where I used to work where they explained the differences between the generations and how we had do design our product differently for each target gen. I don't remember much about it other than us boomers didn't understand technology because we didn't grow up with computers and stuff. Of course, that left me wondering who created all those computers for the younger generations to use since us geezers didn't know how they worked and all.
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Absolutely wrong? Not slightly or moderately or modestly or even greatly but absolutely? That hurts my middle aged feelings. :(

But yeah, I have seen course offerings for older leaders on how to lead millennials so some folks take the differences whether perceived or real far too seriously.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Where I work now, every undergrad gets a laptop with the software (Matlab, NX, etc.) they are expected to use when they register for classes.
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Yup.. Much cheaper to administer educational licensed software that way. Also avvoids a snowflake meltdown if the college requires a particular operating system or hardware specs.
 
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