Engine Out- Overhead Spiral Down to Landing

RyanB

RyanB

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Some positive food for thought here by Jason Shappert at MzeroA. When is the last time you’ve practiced this type of scenario?

Shortly after our Aerobat lost its engine while out with a CFI and his student last summer, I felt the need to work on this and become more familiar with the glide performance of the airplanes I fly. It’s very beneficial training and something I highly suggest working on if you haven’t. Glad to see Jason hit on this topic.


 
It's in the PPC ACS, emergency descent and simulated forced landing. Did one a few days ago with a student. Smoke/fire would dictate an emergency descent to a possible simulated forced landing. We do full flaps, top of white arc (85 in C152) and it comes down fairly fast. Also practice a more 'normal' simulated forced landing. Had him near a grass strip the other day and he missed it.
 
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mscard88 said:
It's in the PPC ACS, emergency descent/simulated forced landing. Did one a few days ago with a student. Smoke/fire would dictate an emergency descent to a possible simulated forced landing. We do full flaps, top of white arc (85 in C152) and it comes down fairly fast. Also practice a more 'normal' simulated forced landing. Had him near a grass strip the other day and he missed it.
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I hope you did it or will do it again with him. I blew my last one too, so we went around and did it again, didn't blow it the second time, nor do I plan on blowing it again now.
 
mscard88 said:
It's in the PPC ACS, emergency descent/simulated forced landing. Did one a few days ago with a student. Smoke/fire would dictate an emergency descent to a possible simulated forced landing. We do full flaps, top of white arc (85 in C152) and it comes down fairly fast. Also practice a more 'normal' simulated forced landing. Had him near a grass strip the other day and he missed it.
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I’m glad to hear it. One of those skills that’s nice to have in your bag of tricks.
 
Hmmmm... I was thinking of the steep spiral over a point like we used to do in single engine commercial maneuvers.

Protect the nose wheel at all cost...... Ok, do I take the wings off between two trees to protect the nose wheel.?? I understand what he meant, keep the weight off the nose wheel as long as possible with full back elevator.... they way he said it just came across funny to me. Like the people inside are not worth protecting.
 
Who's never landed on a real soft field?

That's just sad.
 
Zeldman said:
Hmmmm... I was thinking of the steep spiral over a point like we used to do in single engine commercial maneuvers.

Protect the nose wheel at all cost...... Ok, do I take the wings off between two trees to protect the nose wheel.?? I understand what he meant, keep the weight off the nose wheel as long as possible with full back elevator.... they way he said it just came across funny to me. Like the people inside are not worth protecting.
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Nosewheel? What the hell is that? ;)
 
James331 said:
Who's never landed on a real soft field?

That's just sad.
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There’s a lot of places that don’t allow their aircraft on soft fields. Heard it before, many times. Indeed it’s quite unfortunate.
 
Ryanb said:
There’s a lot of places that don’t allow their aircraft on soft fields. Heard it before, many times. Indeed it’s quite unfortunate.
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I've heard that, but a well cared for grass strip is actually easier on the aircraft, meh oh well.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have several grass strips under my belt but no dirt, gravel, etc.
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That's funny, I have lots of gravel, dirt, beach and off airport landings yet I have never landed on a grass strip...:lol::lol:

Does paved runways with grass growing through the cracks count..??
 
Zeldman said:
That's funny, I have lots of gravel, dirt, beach and off airport landings yet I have never landed on a grass strip...:lol::lol:

Does paved runways with grass growing through the cracks count..??
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Knowing where you were and where you are, I can see that. :cool:
 
N659HB said:
Blame the insurance carriers for that.
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Also the fault of the consumer, I would never buy insurance that wouldn't "allow" me to land my plane on grass or other safe but not airport surfaces.

If more people wouldn't give money to businesses with those restrictions, you wouldn't see those restrictions.
 
There's a grass strip in Philadelphia MS that is the most beautiful that I've landed on. Golf course like grass, crowned beautifully, manicured. Guy that owns was a contractor I think and he was having an equipment auction there when I went years ago.
 
Ryanb said:
I’m glad to hear it. One of those skills that’s nice to have in your bag of tricks.
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Students get tested on it on their ride, It's in the ACS like I said, and the DPE around here tests them on it. But yeah, good to know. I actually did a FR months ago and was unaware of it myself.
 
Grass strips are usually friendlier,when you stop by. when I was training for my private ,we did a lot of grass strip training .
 
Grass is worth finding...except for Kansas grass in August...
 
mscard88 said:
It's in the PPC ACS, emergency descent/simulated forced landing. Did one a few days ago with a student. Smoke/fire would dictate an emergency descent to a possible simulated forced landing. We do full flaps, top of white arc (85 in C152) and it comes down fairly fast. Also practice a more 'normal' simulated forced landing. Had him near a grass strip the other day and he missed it.
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You are conflating two completely different tasks. The topic is about engine failures and glides. Also, using flaps for the emergency descent is stupid.
 
dmspilot said:
You are conflating two completely different tasks. The topic is about engine failures and glides. Also, using flaps for the emergency descent is stupid.
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No I am not. It's in the C152 POH, but if you consider it stupid so be it. If you're on fire/smoke and need to get it on the ground quick, I'll go with flaps and procedure as called for in the POH.
 
My only complaint with grass is that it is very hard to find grass strips with fuel. Pretty much limits their usefulness when you are flying a lot of cross countries.
 
N659HB said:
Blame the insurance carriers for that.
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I think so! My former club's insurance policy would not permit intentional soft field landings in the retracts... fixed gear aircraft had no such restriction. -Skip
 
mscard88 said:
No I am not. It's in the C152 POH, but if you consider it stupid so be it. If you're on fire/smoke and need to get it on the ground quick, I'll go with flaps and procedure as called for in the POH.
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Yes you are. Emergency Descent and Emergency Approach and Landing are two entirely different tasks in the ACS. Look it up. The first two words in the topic title literally are "Engine Out". Your post was a non-sequitur.

There is no general procedure for an emergency descent in a C152 in the POH and if there were, it certainly wouldn't include extending the flaps. Slowing down to Vfe and increasing lift and adding drag with an upward component are not congruent with getting down quickly.
 
Unusual attitudes and engine out simulated approaches. Doing it as part of my flight review next week. Probably will go to Frazier Lake (1C9) grass strip. Landing there is like ... buttah. :)
 
olasek said:
It is interesting that Cessna prescribes full flaps in 152 for emergency descent, but if it is in POH - I would follow the POH. In Cirrus - no flaps.
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He is wrong. Cessna does not prescribe full flaps in a 152 for emergency descent.
 
James331 said:
Who's never landed on a real soft field?

That's just sad.
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I hadn't for a LONG time being from a place that's ridiculously dry. There's almost no such thing as a grass runway here, which yes... is sad... nice grass runways are a wonderful thing.

But a lot of people who never go far away from the desert southwest and high plains, never get to land on it...

And THEN there's the clubs and their rentals that have "no unimproved runways" limits... sometimes driven by their insurers, sometimes just driven by... ugh... nevermind... :(
 
I did the non-emergency power-off descent to landing a couple months ago with my flight review. Was a couple miles from the airport so I had to judge how much descent in the spiral vs how much to plan to lose on the way to the airport. Alternatively I could have headed straight to the airport and then do a 360 or two there instead. I was lined up for a straight-in based on winds so I lost the altitude then headed for the runway.

And I've never landed on a soft/grass field. And now with the Mooney with really expensive gear doors unless I want to remove them I think it will be a while longer
 
dmspilot said:
He is wrong. Cessna does not prescribe full flaps in a 152 for emergency descent.
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I think you may be correct, couldn't find it in the POH. I know they're too different tasks in the ACS. But there's a DPE who is expecting that on a ride according to the Chief Instructor and that's how the school is teaching it. He had me do it on my FR. I'll ask him about it tomorrow. But it sure gets you down fast, using 30-45* bank.

edit: we're teaching it w/ flaps because it's in the FAA Airplane Flying Hdbk, Ch. 17-6. Three ways, Vne, Vle, or Vfe.
 
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denverpilot said:
I hadn't for a LONG time being from a place that's ridiculously dry. There's almost no such thing as a grass runway here, which yes... is sad... nice grass runways are a wonderful thing.

But a lot of people who never go far away from the desert southwest and high plains, never get to land on it...

And THEN there's the clubs and their rentals that have "no unimproved runways" limits... sometimes driven by their insurers, sometimes just driven by... ugh... nevermind... :(
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Goodland and St. Francis have grass runways. Goodland's rather firm most of the time. St. Francis actually has grass instead of desiccated clay.

Anyway, grass <> soft for those folks saying that their club/fbo/whatever prohibits soft fields. They are two very different animals.
 
If you want to try something fun, pull the power about 4k feet above your intended landing zone. If you don’t get a full flap full stall landing in the first third of the runway do it again.

You can have your turf strips. Not a lot of room on my aircraft between the prop and terra firma. Put another way, I never saw a prop stopping gopher hole on a paved runway. Honestly, if the engine takes a dump the insurance company just bought itself an airplane. I’m for getting down safely nosewheel be damned. If there’s something on FIRE in my aircraft Vne has just become a number in a book. I’m for getting down NOW, again nosewheel be damned.
 
wayne said:
Typically the "clubs"/flight schools don't allow it.
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Suggest looking for a club that flies Cubs, Champs, Citabrias and the like. These are likely to be more amenable, or may even encourage, grass strips. Such as Aerodynamic Aviation at KRHV.

Clubs / schools that have mostly nose-dragger types or lost of glass panels will likely want you to stay on pavement.
 
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