Twin Ownership - Year 1 The ups and downs

Yeti Niner Five said:
I haven't heard anyone mention a 58P. Thoughts?
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Limited production, less than 500 built over nine years. Same reliability issues as any retro-fitted pressurization of what was originally a non-pressurized hull design. If it was a good idea they would still be making it.

I know one pilot at our airport that has owned one for many years. Loves the plane, but it's a real maintenance hog compared to the conventional version of the Baron. And every time he has a problem with the pressurization the plane is grounded...it can't be flown non-pressurized.

Personally I would not have much interest in owning a pressurized airplane hull that was not designed from the outset to be pressurized.

Have you considered the Piper Malibu/Meridian?
 
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Lance F said:
Yes the wait was extremely frustrating. 6 months was about double the original longest time given when I interviewed the shop. However no firm promises were ever given. There were a couple of extenuating circumstances that could be blamed on some but not all of the extra time. The builders position from the start was that it would be done when it was done

The build was good. And the price was as expected. When it’s time to do the other engine I’m not sure at all what I’ll do.
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:yikes:,

aviation120116.jpg

That's a long time...:mad2:
 
GRG55 said:
Limited production, less than 500 built over nine years. Same reliability issues as any retro-fitted pressurization of what was originally a non-pressurized hull design. If it was a good idea they would still be making it.
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Nailed it. Well said.

I've got a bit of time in the pressurized Navajo. Real clunker.

In general I'm not a big fan of asking piston engines to do too much. Turbocharging is about the limit. Pressurization and high altitude flight, well, it's just not a great idea. If you want to do those things, do it right and get a turbine ship of some sort.

Have you considered the Piper Malibu/Meridian?
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The Malibu is the poster child for what I was just talking about... one single big bore piston engine, turbocharged and running white hot, dragging around an airplane, responsible for pressurization, electrical system pushed to the limit for anti-ice systems (PA-46 is known to pop breakers when you extend the landing gear with all of the anti-ace systems active), etc. etc. Way too much in my opinion.
 
I'd love a turbine-powered option (single or twin), but that's out of my price range...maybe down the road.

Didn't realize that the 58P was a retrofit. Makes sense now. I see why those More knowledgeable than me are steering toward the Cessna.
 
Lance F said:
Yes the wait was extremely frustrating. 6 months was about double the original longest time given when I interviewed the shop. However no firm promises were ever given. There were a couple of extenuating circumstances that could be blamed on some but not all of the extra time. The builders position from the start was that it would be done when it was done

The build was good. And the price was as expected. When it’s time to do the other engine I’m not sure at all what I’ll do.
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So during that six months is the engine apart for most of that time, or is most of the time waiting for a slot to get the work done.
 
The engine was apart the day I brought it in! The rest of the time was waiting for my build slot.
 
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I also considered the P-Baron and Aerostar. Because of my efficiency compulsion (12years Mooney ownership) I would like an Aerostar. However they are smaller cabins than a 414 and have a tail height too high for my hangar door. I was also more comfortable with mx support for the Cessna. I also strongly considered the PBaron, but the cabin was too small for my defined mission (4 adults, 2 kids). It would be a squeeze for the OPs family of 5.
 
I agree with @Ryan F. about the Malibu. Too much for that one engine. I’m not sure I agree that pressurization and high altitude flight require a turbine though. I’ve got 2 335hp engines that only have to give me 3.8psi differential pressure to give me a 10,000’ cabinet at FL250. Just one engine can hold that differential. The 414 is certified to 30,000’. So I don’t think they’re working that hard. The pressurization system itself is pretty simple, and not know for failures as far as I know. Sure I’d love a turboprop or jet. I enjoy flying them when someone else is paying. But you know well the huge cost differential that entails over pistons.
 
Everyone talks about an Aerostar....
I’m no Aerostar expert, but I have been told there is a very significant difference between a Piper and the old Ted Smith models.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
I'd love a turbine-powered option (single or twin), but that's out of my price range...maybe down the road.
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Don't know what your price point is for your 414, but early Meridians are down into the 600s and 700s. I'll put my name on one as soon as they drop another half million or so.
 
Kritchlow said:
Everyone talks about an Aerostar....
I’m no Aerostar expert, but I have been told there is a very significant difference between a Piper and the old Ted Smith models.
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Those things had so many changes and modifications over the years, its almost difficult to find any two that are alike ;)

I think Aerostar AIrcraft Corporation in Coeur dAlene, Idaho still does mods and supports these airplanes? Their reputation for being like tanks and going fast seems to have made them popular as fire spotters and bird dogs in some aerial tanker companies, as the drop planes have become bigger and faster.
 
Kritchlow said:
Everyone talks about an Aerostar....
I’m no Aerostar expert, but I have been told there is a very significant difference between a Piper and the old Ted Smith models.
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That’s what all the articles about them say, also.

And that they’ll eat you alive on maintenance.

And that their speed means they need to be flown by the numbers like a turboprop or jet, that wing will go fast, but it can have bad low speed characteristics.

Realistically, my “someday” budget for a twin probably looks more like a 310 than an Aerostar. ;)

But one can dream... of enormous maintenance bills, and filling 175 gallons worth of fuel tanks. Ha. ;)

Putting along at FL250 at 250 knots in a personal piston twin that can barely carry four comfortably is, in the end, kinda dumb, but appealing in an odd way. ;)

The older ones, single engine service ceiling suffers for all that efficiency in the wing, and is around 9500’, which means if you’re headed over big mountains, get high and stay high before crossing... you may need all that altitude to wind down slowly, getting somewhere with a runway long enough to land it on.

@stratobee flew his a lot and probably has a lot more and smarter commentary than I would ever have on it.
 
I noticed that the Duke was tossed out quickly and most have seem to agree. What driving that? I don't know much about them.
 
The problem with the 58P is that it's a 58 Baron, which is a small cabin (smaller than the 340). It's a hot rod, but not good for a growing family. 414 is what I'd look for, or 421 if you don't mind the geared engines.

Definitely join TTCF if you're interested. Don't get a Duke - I have to disavow that I ever worked for the company that disavowed making the engines on that plane.
 
Ha! Tony, I laughed out loud at that. Okay, the Duke is definitely off the list.

I'll start digging into the 414's and 414a's. Acquisition cost looks expensive, but I guess you get what you pay for most of the time.

Tell me about the geared engines on the 421's. Sounds like one more thing to go wrong.
 
I've never seen soo many TTCF members in a forum not in the TTCF forums....and providing timely feedback...unlike the TTCF forum.

While the TTCF forum has a lot of type specific knowledge, its lack of activity makes it a Jeb Bush ("low energy") forum compared to Beechtalk for instance.

overall, still worth joining.
 
414s are a lot more reasonable on purchase price than 414As. Personally I think the tip-tanked 414s are a great deal. They're a bit slower than the 414As, but you get the same cabin. 340s are cheaper these days, but there seem to be a lot of 340s with issues.

The geared engines have a reputation for issues. That said, a lot of those issues were caused by pilots not flying them correctly. When flown correctly, they're good engines that last pretty well. That said, they have their share of oddities. For example, they frequently lose oil prime, which means the oil pump needs to be re-primed or you get 0 oil pressure. I think a lot of people have had issues with that.
 
Clark1961 said:
There have been unsubstantiated rumors of a duke actually moving under its own power...

The original engines are orphaned.
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They are still viable and available. Plenty of guys are owners and enthusiasts.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
414s are a lot more reasonable on purchase price than 414As. Personally I think the tip-tanked 414s are a great deal. They're a bit slower than the 414As, but you get the same cabin. 340s are cheaper these days, but there seem to be a lot of 340s with issues.

The geared engines have a reputation for issues. That said, a lot of those issues were caused by pilots not flying them correctly. When flown correctly, they're good engines that last pretty well. That said, they have their share of oddities. For example, they frequently lose oil prime, which means the oil pump needs to be re-primed or you get 0 oil pressure. I think a lot of people have had issues with that.
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A decent 340 is $250, 414s are generally less but holding up better than 421s (because people are (unfairly) afraid of the dreaded geared engines.)
 
I want a Duke badly, the insurance companies apparently have no love for them currently, especially for someone transitioning into pressurized twins.
 
paflyer said:
A decent 340 is $250, 414s are generally less but holding up better than 421s (because people are (unfairly) afraid of the dreaded geared engines.)
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A decent 340 or tip tanked 414 will get you in the range of $250k plus. On the lower end of the market there are more 340s these days. I don't think the fear of the geared engines is entirely unfair given what I've observed, but to each his own. There are certainly benefits of 421s vs. 414s, so one needs to pick the pluses and minuses.
 
Besides the engine issue a Duke is pretty small inside compared to the 414/421. Should you have to overhaul an engine (as I did), the geared 421 overhaul will suck your wallet of an additional 10 to 15 AMUs compared to the non-geared 340/414 engine. This stuff adds up.
And it's very true that the TCFF ain't Beechtalk. Just don't have the numbers to reach the critical mass that they have. So join and help that situation.
 
Lance F said:
Besides the engine issue a Duke is pretty small inside compared to the 414/421. Should you have to overhaul an engine (as I did), the geared 421 overhaul will suck your wallet of an additional 10 to 15 AMUs compared to the non-geared 340/414 engine. This stuff adds up.
And it's very true that the TCFF ain't Beechtalk. Just don't have the numbers to reach the critical mass that they have. So join and help that situation.
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For a 6-seater a Duke is pretty roomy all the way around, but yes, it's not a C4xx... although it will fit into a larger T, where the 414A/421B-C won't. 340's seem snug to me, particularly up front.
 
I only had my Aerostar for 200hrs, but it was a reliable twin. You had to keep ahead of it maintenance-wise (mouse-milking the wastegates regularly, doing frequent oil changes etc), but it never left me stranded once. They do eat tires unless they're perfectly rigged, but no biggie. Yes, cabin is on the snugger side. Have to be flown by the numbers, or they'll bite. Fuel misers if you flew it LOP. Mine did 25gal/hr in total, doing 200kts up high. That's pretty good fuel economy. Excellently supported by Aerostar Air in Idaho still. If you buy one, make sure it has these mods as basic minimum:

Machen exhaust
Intercoolers
6-puck brakes
 
Radar Contact said:
@Vitaly , as a Twin Cessna guy myself (and member of TTCF), I completely agree with @Lance F and @Ted DuPuis
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I just joined TTCF also. A true wealth of information especially for this novice twin Cessna owner.

tonycondon said:
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But I would look cool in a Duke!


Good to see your real-world numbers, thanks for posting. Us 310 owners just got hit with the heater AD too, mine has been gone almost 5 weeks and they haven't even started it yet... way too cold to fly it without it too :(
 
Z06_Mir said:
I just joined TTCF also. A true wealth of information especially for this novice twin Cessna owner.



But I would look cool in a Duke!


Good to see your real-world numbers, thanks for posting. Us 310 owners just got hit with the heater AD too, mine has been gone almost 5 weeks and they haven't even started it yet... way too cold to fly it without it too :(
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I feel you... Has anyone's heater passed the leak test??? :mad2:
 
The 414A I fly had its heater pass in November. So it is possible. However I wouldn’t count on it.
 
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