Home Water Pressure

[Ted]

The water pressure in our house has always "felt" lower than ideal. We live out in the country and while we have "city" water (Rural Water District #2 is the name of our water company), there's not much for houses, and I also suspect a lot of the water customers are irrigation for the surrounding crops.

We recently bought a new washing machine (Electrolux) which seems particularly sensitive to water pressure. It immediately was unhappy with the water flow it received, throwing an error code (E 11). We talked to our water company who replaced the regulator going to our property, and then pulled it out entirely. That pushed our water pressure from 45 or so up to 65. Of course, that's static water pressure, not dynamic with the washer running. We've tried bypassing the water softener, but that doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

Our house is about 500 ft back from the road (and thus the pressure regulator). We're now getting enough pressure, but I'm thinking that we don't have enough flow to keep that pressure high once the water turns on. The water company said there's nothing else they can do, so that has me looking at whole house water pressure boosters.

I've never used one of these before or needed one. Electrolux is supposed to send a technician next week. While it is possible that the washer itself is bad, given that it seems to work during times when there's minimal water usage (works best in the evenings, specifically) I'm going to be it just has to do with flow vs. pressure, and this washer is probably extremely sensitive. It does use water pressure to do a spray of water rather than just filling the tub, so it makes sense that it would be more sensitive to having a particular pressure. It also makes sense that, being out in the boonies with the sort of low water pressure we've noted in general, that we would suffer this problem.

Any experience or thoughts regarding boosting home water pressure?

 

[paflyer]

Larger feeder pipe from the street? That won't be inexpensive...

 

[weilke]

Nothing sucks like Electrolux. Took 8 visits by their service and they still couldn't get my brand new fridge to work. Retailer took it back.


A pressure tank and a booster pump should fix your pressure issue.

 

[Ted]

Larger feeder pipe from the street? That won't be inexpensive...

A booster pump is around $1k, but that's far preferable to running a new line from the street.

Nothing sucks like Electrolux. Took 8 visits by their service and they still couldn't get my brand new fridge to work. Retailer took it back.


A pressure tank and a booster pump should fix your pressure issue.

We had an Electrolux vauum and liked it. The features on this washer/dryer are very nice, and the reviews were all positive. They seem up there in quality. But they're European, and therefore finicky. I can't say I'm surprised that we're having this issue.

 

[Ravioli]

Do you have space for a water tank?

Mine is in the garage and it's about 50 gallons. It has a pump that draws from the well and keeps the tank full and pressured up. When the house demand occurs the pressure drops 10psi or so. It would be unlikely you'd have a demand that pulled the water and/or pressure down to an unacceptable level.

 

[tspear]

Sounds like a flow problem. A few possible choices.
Get efficient versions of other water usage devices. e.g. low flow toilets...
Check internal piping before going to the street. You may have a large enough pipe from the street for the volume but the washer may be at the end of an internal line.
If internal piping in the home is sufficient, then you can get a small water tank and pump specifically for the washer, likely cheaper then a new line to the street.

Tim

 

[Ted]

We do have space for a water tank, so I suppose that's an option. Although that somewhat seems to me like it would be in addition to a home water pressure booster, no?

 

[tspear]

We do have space for a water tank, so I suppose that's an option. Although that somewhat seems to me like it would be in addition to a home water pressure booster, no?

Usually works better then a pressure booster. A pressure booster just tries to suck the water faster. If you have a flow problem and they city is already providing 65 PSI a booster likely will not do much.

Tim

 

[Ted]

Sounds like a flow problem. A few possible choices.
Get efficient versions of other water usage devices. e.g. low flow toilets...
Check internal piping before going to the street. You may have a large enough pipe from the street for the volume but the washer may be at the end of an internal line.
If internal piping in the home is sufficient, then you can get a small water tank and pump specifically for the washer, likely cheaper then a new line to the street.

We aren't running any other water devices when the washer is running. Forgot to clearly state that.

The house is 12 years old. Would this still potentially be a concern?

I should add we have a very small (I think about 2 gallon) pressure tank. So if we got a bigger tank this would be expected to potentially help?

 

[Ted]

Something like this what y'all are thinking for a pressure tank?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Worker-44-Gal-Pressurized-Well-Tank-HT44B/202846485

 

[Tantalum]

Sounds like you need a Commando 450

 

[Axtel4]

Is the E11 code due to the cold fill or the hot fill cycle? I believe the code is due to the tub not filling within the prescribed time allotted by the timer.

The water from Hillsdale Lake / Bull Creek has a high lime content. As such, I have seen at our place where water valves and fittings will almost be cut off due to the hard water deposits. I have seen it worse with brass or metal fittings / fixtures. The typical trouble spots have been the ice maker and washing machine, and dish washer. Any faucets with a constant, high volume flow typically don't "clog." It may be worth the effort to determine the flow for each branch throughout the house, while comparing the hot and cold side flow. Without a water softener, 10 - 12 years is about the right time to start experiencing flow problems due to hard water deposits.

Also, in our neck of the woods, other than gardeners, it is too expensive to irrigate crops with "city water." Agriculture crop irrigation water is either drawn from wells of the surrounding creeks / rivers.

 

[Grum.Man]

Larger feed line is the likely solution.

 

[Ted]

Our house does have a water softener, and I don't see any lime deposits or the like (I'm familiar with these in Texas) so I think it's doing its job. If we try bypassing the water softener it makes no difference, so that still seems to point to issues on the supply side. On the other hand, it could point to clogging on the line coming from the street, which would make sense. They said it would be possible that we may have gotten a 3/4" line instead of a 1" line, and there's no real way to tell that. But that would also cost a whole ton of money to do anything about, so I'd prefer not to if there's a cheaper solution.

Good points on the crops getting irrigated. I have no idea what they use, was just speculating. I do recall reading that I am specifically not allowed to have a well on our house, but I'm sure the rules are different for the farmers.

The E11 code seems to occur regardless of hot or cold cycle. It seems to happen less often if a "warm" water setting (i.e. mixed hot and cold) is being used. I read the same thing about fill time, but of course the fill rate depends on pressure. It's obviously borderline since it works sometimes but not others, and seems to work best during times that would be "low use" for the neighborhood.

 

[denverpilot]

Something like this what y'all are thinking for a pressure tank?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Worker-44-Gal-Pressurized-Well-Tank-HT44B/202846485

Different brand but that's exactly what we have on our well system. Uses air pressure and a diaphragm to maintain a pressure. Our well pump cuts off when the tank/house hits that pressure. I don't know how they work on a constant pressure city water system, though.

I would have warned you off of Electrolux too, but that's water under the bridge (no pun intended). Don't like 'em. Bad experience with them. Wifey wanted one of their ovens long ago. Thing was a fussy PITA. We eventually made the people who sold it to us, replace it.

Surprised the washer is whining at 65 PSI. Heck, we know it's a little low, but we keep our house at 40. Flow is great with the well pump and the pressure tank keeps things on an even keel until the well pump comes on. None of the appliances complains or seems to have any problems and with proper shower heads, 40 makes for a decent shower pressure also.

That tank will NOT fix a flow problem AFAIK. It only deals with pressure drops like we get from our system until the well pump comes on. Essentially your well pump is "always on" since you're on the city system. So I'm not sure if that tank is what you're looking for or not. Is the washer complaining about pressure or flow?

 

[Ted]

Different brand but that's exactly what we have on our well system. Uses air pressure and a diaphragm to maintain a pressure. Our well pump cuts off when the tank/house hits that pressure. I don't know how they work on a constant pressure city water system, though.

I would have warned you off of Electrolux too, but that's water under the bridge (no pun intended). Don't like 'em. Bad experience with them. Wifey wanted one of their ovens long ago. Thing was a fussy PITA. We eventually made the people who sold it to us, replace it.

Surprised the washer is whining at 65 PSI. Heck, we know it's a little low, but we keep our house at 40. Flow is great with the well pump and the pressure tank keeps things on an even keel until the well pump comes on. None of the appliances complains or seems to have any problems and with proper shower heads, 40 makes for a decent shower pressure also.

That tank will NOT fix a flow problem AFAIK. It only deals with pressure drops like we get from our system until the well pump comes on. Essentially your well pump is "always on" since you're on the city system. So I'm not sure if that tank is what you're looking for or not. Is the washer complaining about pressure or flow?

In PA we had a well and it had a tank like that, too, although smaller (forget the exact size).

Again, the 65 psi is a static pressure, so I don't know what it's getting to when the washer is consuming water. It could be that it's expecting a more constant pressure source than we're getting. 40 psi is about where our house was, and that was way too low all around. But again, if it's a flow issue. But we also prefer higher pressure in our house. In Ohio (which was city water and in the city) we liked it higher, more like 50 psi. But that actually stayed constant.

The error code has to do with fill time, but fill has to do with flow and pressure. So if we're able to keep the pressure at 65 psi longer dynamically, then that might help.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Did you check your pressure at the time when your washer is running? Most water systems run a diurnal peak where pressure is lowest around 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.. A pressure tank installed at the house will help a restricted service line (if it's large enough) but it won't help cyclic pressure drops.

 

[Ted]

Larger feed line is the likely solution.

Yeah, sadly I'm afraid that might be true. Which I really don't like the idea of... that'd be big bucks if required. So if I can do a bandaid fix that'd be preferable.

 

[Ted]

Did you check your pressure at the time when your washer is running? Most water systems run a diurnal peak where pressure is lowest around 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.. A pressure tank installed at the house will help a restricted service line (if it's large enough) but it won't help cyclic pressure drops.

I haven't done that, that's on the list for a test to do.

 

[denverpilot]

Got it. Yeah. Fill time. Hmm. Why does it care? Is it in a hurry? Stupid software engineer. Haha.

Dunno if the tank will help. Clark is the pressure and flow engineer 'round here. He's usually doing the math for that black stuff with lots of hydrocarbons but I bet he can tell ya if a tank like that will help.

I don't think they hold enough water to help a flow issue. In our case the only thing "pushing" the water is that tank until the well pump kicks on. Obviously nothing flows without that pressure but our well pump kicks on nearly immediately after any water is used in the house anywhere. It's 900' down but we hear the big relay click in the laundry room. Heh.

 

[Everskyward]

Something like this what y'all are thinking for a pressure tank?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Worker-44-Gal-Pressurized-Well-Tank-HT44B/202846485

That's the type, only much older, I had for my former house, which had a well. I was not impressed with the water pressure, but someone here (@Clark1961?) said that I could have turned it up. By the time he wrote that, I was selling my house so it didn't matter. In any case, I think it might help if your problem is flow, not pressure. Even if the flow from the street is less than desirable, the flow downstream of the tank would be supplied by the water in the tank.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/pressure-out-well-water-36511.html

 

[mscard88]

Did you check your pressure at the time when your washer is running? Most water systems run a diurnal peak where pressure is lowest around 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.. A pressure tank installed at the house will help a restricted service line (if it's large enough) but it won't help cyclic pressure drops.[/QUOTE

.

Maybe check pressure at the washer inlet, er, outlet, see what it's getting? Even checking at an outside faucet to see what you have. I'm thinking city water pressures are around 50 psi, but you're getting 65, so any thoughts about a leak before it hits your house? I know years ago there were problems and lawsuits over some kind of black plastic water supply lines splitting. I actually replaced one at my in-laws years ago

 

[Ted]

Clark's way smarter than I am, but logically it does make sense why a pressure tank would work for what we're trying to accomplish, provided we went big enough (which I would definitely do). The washer is the only real issue, and it's not like it's using a whole ton of water quantity wise. It is trying to get high flow for a short period of time. Might especially help if it allows us to have multiple items on and not have to wait on turning the washer on until everything else is off.

Originally we were getting about 45 psi, but removing the regulator got it up to 65, which the company said wasn't going to hurt anything. But given how that's only helped some and not solved the problem that would tend to point towards a low flow problem.

 

[Clark1961]

Time to use a pressure gauge and see if there is a pressure drop problem and where it is occurring. If the pressure drop is between the street and your house then look at line replacement vs volume tank (cost comparison). If the pressure drop is in the house then there is a plumbing problem that won't be fixed by a volume tank (unless the volume tanks set next to the washer on both hot and cold).

The small "volume" tank you have now should be on the hot side and it compensates for any water expansion from heating water. Installation of the tank assumes there is a backflow preventer somewhere in the meter or house plumbing.

 

[MIFlyer]

A booster pump is around $1k, but that's far preferable to running a new line from the street.



We had an Electrolux vauum and liked it. The features on this washer/dryer are very nice, and the reviews were all positive. They seem up there in quality. But they're European, and therefore finicky. I can't say I'm surprised that we're having this issue.

you'll need a tank too, right? a pump alone wouldn't do it without a tank. Can you get a $10 water pressure meter hooked up to a faucet (like your laundry sink) and then observe how low it goes when someone starts a bunch of water demand?

 

[Ted]

If the pressure drop is between the street and your house then look at line replacement vs volume tank (cost comparison).

I can tell you for certain that replacing the line from the street will be a lot more expensive than a volume tank. We're about 500 ft back from the street and that's all underground.

But you gave me a few ideas for things to check with the gauge I have...

 

[Clark1961]

I can tell you for certain that replacing the line from the street will be a lot more expensive than a volume tank. We're about 500 ft back from the street and that's all underground.

But you gave me a few ideas for things to check with the gauge I have...

500' in Kansas soil isn't too bad with a rented ditchwitch. It'd be a good weekend project. 500' is 25 joints of pvc. Easy-peasy

Alternatively I know a guy in the springs with a D-9 who could plow it in. Take him about 10 minutes. Mob fee might make it just a touch spendy...

 

[mscard88]

I can tell you for certain that replacing the line from the street will be a lot more expensive than a volume tank. We're about 500 ft back from the street and that's all underground.

But you gave me a few ideas for things to check with the gauge I have...

It's not if ya do it yourself. Digging it up is the hard part of course. But plastic pipe isn't that expensive. Some contact cement and couples. I did my in-laws (just a subdivision lot) for I think less than $50, back in the late 80s I think. Theirs was easy to find, front yard was saturated, and mom-in-law was by herself and plumbers wanted 6-800 bucks. Told her don't do it, I'll be right over.

 

[PaulS]

I would skip the pump and just get the tank. I don't think it would need to be much more than a 40 gallon tank. Make sure it is a well type tank with a diaphragm and it should work well, just like you had a pump especially since you now have 65 psi pressure. Eventually whatever is clogged will completely block. The water company should have flushed your line when they replaced the regulator, just the fact you need a regulator makes me suspect allowing the water to come through at full pressure might blow whatever is blocking the pipe out of there.

 

[SoonerAviator]

500' in Kansas soil isn't too bad with a rented ditchwitch. It'd be a good weekend project. 500' is 25 joints of pvc. Easy-peasy

Lol, I'd hope he went with a 500' spool of PEX or something instead of creating 25 potential leak sources. Of course PEX ain't cheap.

 

[Ted]

It's not if ya do it yourself. Digging it up is the hard part of course. But plastic pipe isn't that expensive. Some contact cement and couples. I did my in-laws (just a subdivision lot) for I think less than $50, back in the late 80s I think. Theirs was easy to find, front yard was saturated, and mom-in-law was by herself and plumbers wanted 6-800 bucks. Told her don't do it, I'll be right over.

Yeah, the digging is the big part. At 500 ft or so (and some of it probably going under some bushes that have grown up over time)... doesn't sound like fun to me. Subdivision lot or house close to the road would be another story, no doubt.

I would skip the pump and just get the tank. I don't think it would need to be much more than a 40 gallon tank. Make sure it is a well type tank with a diaphragm and it should work well, just like you had a pump especially since you now have 65 psi pressure. Eventually whatever is clogged will completely block. The water company should have flushed your line when they replaced the regulator, just the fact you need a regulator makes me suspect allowing the water to come through at full pressure might blow whatever is blocking the pipe out of there.

The regulator is there as an added safety measure. We're at a relatively high elevation for the area (which is great when it rains/floods, because we get no flooding). While there are spots where the pressure is higher, they said that 65 is the max we'd see, and they were right. And yes, definitely agree that if we have a clog then what's there will completely block eventually. From what I've read it seems 65 won't hurt anything.

 

[weilke]

[

Something like this what y'all are thinking for a pressure tank?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Worker-44-Gal-Pressurized-Well-Tank-HT44B/202846485

Yes. Even without a pump, it may be enough to smooth out the pressure drop between static and dynamic for the finicky washer to not throw a code. The max of course is your current static pressure. If that is not sufficient , you may need a pump in addition.

I suspect your problem is with the rural water district. Their infrastructure is not like a city water distribution where you tie into a 12in main one block away. Your 'main' may be a plowed in PVC pipe.

 

[Stewartb]

I have a well and our line pressure is maintained at 40psi. My appliances have always worked fine. Perhaps the problem is in your washer hookup?

 

[tspear]

@Ted DuPuis
I think you need more information before deciding on the solution.
Age of the house has less to do with it, then the quality of the contractor who built it.
To start you need to identify where the flow problem is occurring.
So get a large bucket and time how long to fill it at a few locations. Starting with the washer, then exterior faucets, and the closest you can get to the feed line.

This will allow you to find if you have an internal restriction. If you do, pretty much any solution involving tanks and pumps at the feeder point will not help.
I have solved the feeder flow twice. Both were on city water. First solution used a pressure tank like you posted, we use the regulator signal to control an electric ball valve from the city water to fill the tank as needed. The second solution was a much larger storage tank with an external pump for the house. The storage tank had a simple float to control the city water supply.

Tim

 

[mscard88]

Yeah, the digging is the big part. At 500 ft or so (and some of it probably going under some bushes that have grown up over time)... doesn't sound like fun to me. .

But but you aren't thinking of the health benefits, you know, a work out!

 

[Ted]

Yes. Even without a pump, it may be enough to smooth out the pressure drop between static and dynamic for the finicky washer to not throw a code. The max of course is your current static pressure. If that is not sufficient , you may need a pump in addition.

I suspect your problem is with the rural water district. Their infrastructure is not like a city water distribution where you tie into a 12in main one block away. Your 'main' may be a plowed in PVC pipe.

They said the "main" is a 3" line at the street.

I have a well and our line pressure is maintained at 40psi. My appliances have always worked fine. Perhaps the problem is in your washer hookup?

Our washers have been fine until this new one. We're definitely catering to its needs here. The old washer didn't have this issue, but it also died.

@tspear good points. I'll do some diagnostics this weekend...

 

[GlennAB1]

Do you usually run your washer at peak water usage times? Might have to find low usage times to do it, like I had to do with watering my lawn, pressure is so low in evenings sprinkler is only about three or four feet high.

 

[Stewartb]

It sounds like the washer is the problem.

 

[Ted]

Do you usually run your washer at peak water usage times? Might have to find low usage times to do it, like I had to do with watering my lawn, pressure is so low in evenings sprinkler is only about three or four feet high.

We have experimented with times. Night time definitely work the best. Daytime does not. Some days better than others, likely due to normal fluctuation in usage by the neighbors.

 

[mscard88]

Yeah some of these new washers, jeez, complicated machines. Wish we hadn't bought the one we now have.