Rent vs Buy: the missing metric?

I also disagree every little squawk gets fixed. This varies with clubs. Your club maybe, but not all. I flew in a club plane in AZ couple years ago and someone mentioned oil was low on a prior flight but someone flew anyway. Oil added after the flight so it now shows full. Ugh.

One day on a Thursday in a club plane the alternator light is blinking on and off and the ammeter is dancing wildly to the negative side. I write it up.

Friday morning driving to work by dumb luck see the plane take off over top of me at a red light. Think to myself "Who checked that squawk out so fast?!"

Saturday the airport is digging out from a snowstorm so I know it didn't move.

Sunday evening, clear, very cold, take it for a night flight in that clear calm air with the engine making "winter power" to see what my Christmas lights look like from above. Mx log says the alternator is checked out and good. Get about 25mi out and alternator completely craps out. Garmin, etc. off, limp it directly to the field. Turn the landing lights on short final and the fuel pump, land, as I turn off the runway the landing/strobe/nav lights fade to black. Dead as a doornail.

The next morning a "Hey that alternator died for good this time" call to the mechanic.

Mechanic: Well yeah, I never touched that Warrior yet I was off with the flu."

Me: But the book says it was checked and good.

Mechanic: Joe (club president, NOT A&P) flew it around the pattern Friday morning before the storm and said there was nothing wrong with it.

Me: Say what?! :mad:

And with that, I canceled the automatic debit for monthly dues for that club and swore off rentals.
 
One day on a Thursday in a club plane the alternator light is blinking on and off and the ammeter is dancing wildly to the negative side. I write it up.

Friday morning driving to work by dumb luck see the plane take off over top of me at a red light. Think to myself "Who checked that squawk out so fast?!"

Saturday the airport is digging out from a snowstorm so I know it didn't move.

Sunday evening, clear, very cold, take it for a night flight in that clear calm air with the engine making "winter power" to see what my Christmas lights look like from above. Mx log says the alternator is checked out and good. Get about 25mi out and alternator completely craps out. Garmin, etc. off, limp it directly to the field. Turn the landing lights on short final and the fuel pump, land, as I turn off the runway the landing/strobe/nav lights fade to black. Dead as a doornail.

The next morning a "Hey that alternator died for good this time" call to the mechanic.

Mechanic: Well yeah, I never touched that Warrior yet I was off with the flu."

Me: But the book says it was checked and good.

Mechanic: Joe (club president, NOT A&P) flew it around the pattern Friday morning before the storm and said there was nothing wrong with it.

Me: Say what?! :mad:

And with that, I canceled the automatic debit for monthly dues for that club and swore off rentals.
Makes me realize just how lucky I am with the club I'm in.
We all chip in (time/labor) for owner maintenance.
When there's a squawk, there's usually a few guys that are excited at the opportunity to work on it.
 
I just sent my plane in for an annual. Overall it was fine but a few issues with the front nose gear, some hoses and a prop seal. It going to cost several hours of comparable rental flight time, but I still like the idea of owning.
 
Here's my spreadsheet, feel free to tear apart my assumptions (like you need an invite haha). Or you can view and comment on my google spreadsheet directly.

LVk-YiFTqBry9rLMT9sUGpK7n_ZxwCJjFCQPz1CYPNI

Two big things I see:

1) The overhaul is going to cost more. Vref tends to be right on what you owe for the overhaul shop to do their thing IME, and it says $21,000 for the overhaul on a 152. Also, removal and reinstallation tends to run about another $6K. So, $27,000 when all is said and done, not $14,000.
2) $10/hr maintenance. Good freaking luck! Over the last 12+ years of being involved with 3-4 airplanes at a time, the only one that has come in at under $40/hr average for maintenance is my club's 2006 DA40... Mainly because she's pretty new. Still runs around $35/hr. For a late-70s plane, $50 is a good planning number, and if you're lucky you'll hit $40. Doing as much as possible yourself, you might get to $30. But parts are expen$ive.
 
Just a couple of thoughts...

1) Looks like you're based or intend to be based in KJWN. As a Class C airspace you're going to need ADSB-Out of some form. Most aircraft on the market don't have and ADSB-Out xpndr so you're going to need to spend some $ on some solution. Hope for the best but plan for the worst, at least another $2K there.

2) If you're going to keep it on a tiedown are you going to invest in any covers?

3) Are you SURE you want a C150? It's not really practical for cross country trips and/or taking people for rides. I think you'll find you will get bored pretty quickly just boring holes in the sky in a C150...

Part 3 is exactly my thinking. As someone who makes a good enough salary but by no means am well off( I'm a teacher by trade) I could possibly swing a 150/152 but I'd never buy one. The amount of days that are flyable in that small of a plane, plus the restricted activities you could actually do enjoyably make for a really poor investment any way you justify it. It's really simply meant as a trainer. I flew one for about 50 hours and really, in my opinion, it's a tough plane to be comfortable in.

For comparison sake, I am partners on a boat with my Dad and, while our boat is not big at all its comparable to a 172 in that it is big enough for us to do what we want with a few other people and it can be used on lots of days that are not perfect, calm days. The fact that I can do what I want, when I want, makes ponying up for Marina fees and all the rest for more justifiable.

I'd argue the absolute worst thing to do is suffer from buyers remorse when buying a plane or any luxury item. If you are getting a plane for training than a 150/52 may work well. Other than for that purpose I don't get why people want them.
 
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Two big things I see:

1) The overhaul is going to cost more. Vref tends to be right on what you owe for the overhaul shop to do their thing IME, and it says $21,000 for the overhaul on a 152. Also, removal and reinstallation tends to run about another $6K. So, $27,000 when all is said and done, not $14,000.
2) $10/hr maintenance. Good freaking luck! Over the last 12+ years of being involved with 3-4 airplanes at a time, the only one that has come in at under $40/hr average for maintenance is my club's 2006 DA40... Mainly because she's pretty new. Still runs around $35/hr. For a late-70s plane, $50 is a good planning number, and if you're lucky you'll hit $40. Doing as much as possible yourself, you might get to $30. But parts are expen$ive.

$27k is a factory overhaul. $14k is a low-end field overhaul.
It's hard to spend $50/hr in 152 maintenance. Unless you buy parts from Cessna. I spent less than half that (and I didn't do any wrenching).
 
Here in the U.K, the metric for a given aircraft (airplane!!) is 0-20 hours per year rent. 20-200 hours per year, partnership. 200+ hours per year, own outright. I imagine it won't be dissimilar in the US.
 
You are going to sink more money than you can justify into flying one way or another.
Would be cool to have something to show for it.

"This is my plane" Even if I'm alone, I walk out to the hangar and say that.
It's best if you are alone when you say that...
 
Curious for those that went the partner route, how did you find partners?

I'm trying to build an LSA partnership as there are no rentals nearby. But that also means no schools training light sport near by . . .

I've had flyers up at the local airport but, as noted above, aren't many looking for light sport coming in to that airport.
 
One part that is missing, is the burden of owning. If you get sick and need a few months downtime, your plane is sitting and still costing you money. I just moved, and even thinking of trying to get to the airport was an effort for the 3 months between getting the house ready to market, cleaning for showings, looking at new places, and unfortunately moving twice.
Renting, I was just out the 46 bucks a month for dues. If I was an owner, I would have this other responsibility in my mind to get out and exercise the plane during this time.

Something to consider. I always remember the quote
“The things you own end up owning you. It's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything."
 
Curious for those that went the partner route, how did you find partners?

I'm trying to build an LSA partnership as there are no rentals nearby. But that also means no schools training light sport near by . . .

I've had flyers up at the local airport but, as noted above, aren't many looking for light sport coming in to that airport.
Hang out at the flight schools...look for freshly minted, eager PPLs :D
 
I can tell you we've taken far better care of a plane even in a non-equity partnership than rentals. We treated it like our own, even though we didn't own any part of it.

You'd be a great partner. From the landings I see at my field, I'd have a hard time finding a decent partner:eek::eek::eek:
 
One part that is missing, is the burden of owning. If you get sick and need a few months downtime, your plane is sitting and still costing you money. I just moved, and even thinking of trying to get to the airport was an effort for the 3 months between getting the house ready to market, cleaning for showings, looking at new places, and unfortunately moving twice.
Renting, I was just out the 46 bucks a month for dues. If I was an owner, I would have this other responsibility in my mind to get out and exercise the plane during this time.

Something to consider. I always remember the quote
“The things you own end up owning you. It's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything."

Pot meet kettle? I could say the EXACT same thing and apply the exact same quote to a house. The irony of your post....
 
$27k is a factory overhaul. $14k is a low-end field overhaul.
It's hard to spend $50/hr in 152 maintenance. Unless you buy parts from Cessna. I spent less than half that (and I didn't do any wrenching).

In the short term, you can get away with a lot less. But then you have a "simple" squawk like your audio panel being on the fritz and discover the insulation has melted on the wiring harness and you're down $3K, your fuel bladders are old and leaky and need replacing for $7K, etc... In the long term, $40-$50/hr is realistic for a four-cylinder single.

And yes - Don't buy parts from Cessna. Woe unto the owner who requires a Cessna-only part... Their prices have gotten nuts. The latest: $1900 for a manifold pressure gauge, with a 60-day warranty. I picked one up from Wentworth for $38 with a 30-day warranty.
 
I told my wife, "You can live in an airplane, but you can't fly a house." She told me I was free to live in an airplane, alone. So, we have one house and half an airplane. :D
I've already let her know that if she kicks me out i'll buy a hangar big enough for a plane and our airstream trailer and call it good. (while missing her, of course)
 
I told my wife, "You can live in an airplane, but you can't fly a house." She told me I was free to live in an airplane, alone. So, we have one house and half an airplane. :D
I guess I was referring to renting a wife....vs. having her to keep. :D
 
As mentioned, my in-ground pool is almost the same way.
Liner ever 10 years, chemicals are dependent upon weather, water rates change, etc.
I can get an estimate or average of what I should spend per month based on past history.
Then based on how many times I swim it costs me X amount.
This year, so far...almost exactly $100 per swim.
When the kids were all living here, it was much more cost effective to own the pool. Now, it's much more cost effective, less hassle, and more fun(ish) to head to a water park.
Or just go rent a plane for about that amount and fly over the river.

Anyone want to trade a plane for a pool?
I'll come get the plane if you come get the pool.
If we are talking about the times that I swim in the pool, my cost is much higher than yours!! I haven't been in my pool in Atlanta this year!! My daughter's dog loves it though!! I think my wife got in it once! I'll trade my pool and throw in the house for the right airplane!! :D
 
Hang out at the flight schools...look for freshly minted, eager PPLs :D

My struggle is I want to go LSA. Non-LSA Warriors, Archers, an Arrow, Skyhawks and a Dakota are all available at reasonable rates nearby. In hangars. Well maintained.

Nobody near me seems to be interested in light sport, at least not hanging at this airport.

Closest for me is a 45 min drive each way. That just doesn't work right now.
 
Pot meet kettle? I could say the EXACT same thing and apply the exact same quote to a house. The irony of your post....
It's not the same. House don't fly

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
The math is going to depend on what you buy. If you get a 35
I'm entering the hot debate of rent vs buy with what seems to me an overlooked factor in every thing I've read: If you rent you're giving money away. If you own you have an asset to sell.

An example, say you're going to spend $20k (airplane rental only; instruction fees excluded from this example) on getting your Instrument and Commercial ratings and it will take you 5 years. If you rent you've just given away $20k. If you own you have an asset at the end of your training that you can sell. Even if ownership costs such as gas, insurance, maintenance, tie downs, etc. are $15k over 5 years you are still $5k ahead assuming the plane holds it value. Even if it loses $3-4k in value you're still ahead. If you get a mogas STC'd 150 certified ifr trainer, follow Mike Busch's maintenance advice, do all the things you can yourself, tie down at a cheap airport, you might spend a lot less than $15k over that time and come away with even more.

I'm ready, tear my assumptions apart!

The math is going to depend on what you buy and that's true whether it's a house, airplane or wife.

But the major assumption you're missing is maintenance and the real fixed vs variable costs. You made an assumption of $250/month for gas, insurance, maintenance, tie downs, etc....and that's way too low. First of all, gas and maintenance are variable cost, not an ownership cost. Whether or not $250 is reasonable in your part of the country is entirely up in the air. Here, flying a beat up old straight wing Warrior, $200 is about the right monthly price for insurance and a tie down at the county airport closest to me. All I get to do for that price is park it outside and hope we don't get a hail storm. There's no hanger, that would take this up to $400/month for insurance and a hanger.

I go back and forth with whether or not to include a purchase price. Financial types talk about opportunity cost of money, but the truth is, nobody really cares to track that because it's all a hypothetical cost and you never know the opportunity cost until well after the opportunity. I'm going to do something with that money and I could park it in stocks, bonds or precious metals just as well as buying an airplane. However, if I'm financing an airplane, then it is money that I have to spend every month so it has to go into the cost. Say $400/month for a loan payment. Yes, at some point the airplane will be sold for some value, but if I do this right, it will be my estate that sells it, so I don't really care what that value is. Of if I really, really do it right, my son will take the plane and it will be his estate that sells it in which case I really, really don't care.

Now you have to figure your variable price - how much do you need to pay and to save for hourly operations and to pay for future maintenance.

Fuel - 8.5 gph x $3.80/gal gives me just about $40/hour for gas.

Engine rebuilds are standard at $11/hour FOR A NEW ENGINE. This varies by the airplane, but typically I use a formula to calculate how much I need to put into the engine fund to pay for a future overhaul and that formula is ($22,000-kick start) / (TBO - SMOH). The kick start is how much I put into the engine fund to start it off. This allows me to save less per hour if I'm considering a high time engine, but it also makes high time engines very unattractive (sellers take note). For an example, take an airplane which has a TBO of 2000 and 500 hrs SMOH. I will put nothing into the kitty when buying the plane. That's 22k/1500 hours remaining on the engine or $14.67 to be saved every hour that I fly, call it $15.

Similar, I put aside for maintenance, but how much is a guess. I go high on this and call it $30 hour for maintenance. Maybe it's only $15, but I'd rather be surprised than shocked.

So, variable costs for my calculations are $85/hour flown and $600/month have the airplane on the ramp. Where is the break even on that? For me, it comes at about 15 hours a month flying, with an hourly cost of $118/hour. If I don't include a loan cost, then break even is at 3 hours with an hourly cost of $126. If you're wondering why the break even changes, there is a monthly fixed cost for club dues that gets amortized over hours flown...that changes the effect rate for the club.

The other important number is how much are you actually spending. At 15 hours and $118/hour, it's $1655 per month. Can I afford to spend that? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no. Therefore I don't have a plane.

The club I belong to is a true club, not for profit. But they do have pretty substantial overhead in terms of building and operations that I don't have, so I think my numbers are probably pretty close to the mark. One of these days I'm going to have to prove them...
 
My struggle is I want to go LSA. Non-LSA Warriors, Archers, an Arrow, Skyhawks and a Dakota are all available at reasonable rates nearby. In hangars. Well maintained.

Nobody near me seems to be interested in light sport, at least not hanging at this airport.

Closest for me is a 45 min drive each way. That just doesn't work right now.

Buy, and put it on leaseback. People will come out of the woodwork and if you play your cards right you can even make some money.

For some reason the established aviation industry has never bought into LSAs, while the people on the outside looking to get in seem to really want them. I've never understood why, on the former... Maybe it's because of the small subset of LSAs that really are pieces of crap (like the Allegro 2000), or maybe it's just that change is hard.
 
For some reason the established aviation industry has never bought into LSAs, while the people on the outside looking to get in seem to really want them. I've never understood why, on the former... Maybe it's because of the small subset of LSAs that really are pieces of crap (like the Allegro 2000), or maybe it's just that change is hard.

I think part of the problem is the lack of affordable LSAs. Yes a $100,000 LSA is cheaper than a brand new $300,000 C172 or Cirrus, but the average joe GA pilot is probably more in the market for a used $40,000 Cessna or Piper than a new aircraft. Not the mention the performance and size limitations of an LSA. Thats not much bang for the buck. Finding an LSA in the sub $100,000 range is next to impossible.

I predict LSAs to dry up now with BasicMed. The only allure to the LSA market for many was the lack of a medical. Now that there is a way to fly the average Cessna, Piper, bugsmasher without a 3rd class, the $100,000+ LSA market may be doomed.
 
Not the only allure...

The ability to convert to an E-LSA is a huge advantage for those who like to get "hands on" with their toys.

As I said, for many, not all. The few people I knew that went into the LSA market were guys that were flying the usual 40 years old Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, etc., and knew their days of holding a medical were numbered. Unfortunately for most, selling their old airplane barely provided a down payment for a new LSA, and for some it was a financial stretch to purchase an aircraft with half the capability of their existing plane.
 
I'm not convinced Basic Med will save everyone. I have some quirky stuff in my background that will be $$$ to reverse with the FAA. I think if my PCP reads the materials, they likely wouldn't sign Basic Med until I get it reversed either (but they might not read everything).

I can rent spamcans all around me. No LSAs.

And the spamcans are 1970s vintage 160hp warriors for $130/hr or 2002 ish 180hp Skyhawks for slightly more.
 
One day on a Thursday in a club plane the alternator light is blinking on and off and the ammeter is dancing wildly to the negative side. I write it up.

Friday morning driving to work by dumb luck see the plane take off over top of me at a red light. Think to myself "Who checked that squawk out so fast?!"

Saturday the airport is digging out from a snowstorm so I know it didn't move.

Sunday evening, clear, very cold, take it for a night flight in that clear calm air with the engine making "winter power" to see what my Christmas lights look like from above. Mx log says the alternator is checked out and good. Get about 25mi out and alternator completely craps out. Garmin, etc. off, limp it directly to the field. Turn the landing lights on short final and the fuel pump, land, as I turn off the runway the landing/strobe/nav lights fade to black. Dead as a doornail.

The next morning a "Hey that alternator died for good this time" call to the mechanic.

Mechanic: Well yeah, I never touched that Warrior yet I was off with the flu."

Me: But the book says it was checked and good.

Mechanic: Joe (club president, NOT A&P) flew it around the pattern Friday morning before the storm and said there was nothing wrong with it.

Me: Say what?! :mad:

And with that, I canceled the automatic debit for monthly dues for that club and swore off rentals.

I had a similar experience with the club I was in before I bought. 100 hour inspections were routinely delayed. Flaps in an Arrow would slip a notch or 2 without warning. Then when parts were actually ordered, they refused to pay $30 extra to get the plane back up a few days earlier. At the cost of an average 6-8 hours/day of rental. I even had flaps get stuck down in my initial training in a 172 and had the CFI tell me to fly it to the next airport so an AP could fix it, then got charged for all that extra time at 35 kts and full flaps.

Buying has made me responsible for it all. No more arguing with someone that charging me a minimum daily rental when a plane was down for maintenance wasn't ok. No more arguing that "weather delays will never result in late return charges" applied to ice storms and low ceilings for a non-IR pilot. Being able to fly with little notice and without those other worries is very valuable to me. That's something that is hard to put a dollar value on.
 
It's important to note that all your rent fees are typically in Hobbs time but MX intervals are in Tach time(20-30% difference). It can make a difference and favors ownership somewhat.

On the other hand, one other thing being overlooked here. Assuming wet commercial(not club) renting and well maintained planes, you will fly rental faster. If I paid for fuel and engine, i would not be near max available power ROP(plane dependent) in cruise. On faster planes, that can be extra 10-15 knots.

As everyone pointed out, the best answer is, "it depends". I've done this calculation a number of times and, short of partnership(3-4 people) -- even if I could afford the purchase, I could not justify buying a plane I would want to buy. I have well maintained good traveling planes always available to me from my school. With little practical limitations on multi-day renting. Hangar alone would be around $4000/year here. My current spending is about $7-8K on flying around 80-90 hours per year(some of that is cheap CAP). Mix of C172, DA40, and SR22. I don't think i could actually fly much more than that.
 
@genna

I tend to fly best power regardless. In planes I owned, and in what I rent. The engines are made for it, might as well enjoy the speed....

Tim
 
@genna

I tend to fly best power regardless. In planes I owned, and in what I rent. The engines are made for it, might as well enjoy the speed....

Tim

Tim, you are also not making these spreadsheet comparisons. You just accepted this as the cost. You may be right on the engine lifespan, i don't know. But fuel will make a big difference. For people like OP, who are trying to be as frugal as possible, that fuel bill difference will be quite noticeable for relatively little gain in speed.

EDIT: although in OP's specific case, speed is pointless for training.
 
I predict LSAs to dry up now with BasicMed. The only allure to the LSA market for many was the lack of a medical. Now that there is a way to fly the average Cessna, Piper, bugsmasher without a 3rd class, the $100,000+ LSA market may be doomed.

I hope you're wrong, but I fear you may be right. That'll also mean that the people who can't do BasicMed won't have anything to fly (except motorgliders, which make LSAs look plentiful).

It's somewhat unfortunate that AOPA, EAA et al focused so much on the medical aspects of LSAs, because there are some other things they have going for them:

* Fuel burn is crazy low and can save a ton of money hourly. The entire variable cost of an LSA won't even pay for the gas on an Archer.
* You don't have to fly something 40 years old to get in cheaper.
* With that, generally nicer avionics, interiors, paint, overall condition.
* Most LSAs will burn auto gas for even further savings.

I had a similar experience with the club I was in before I bought. 100 hour inspections were routinely delayed. Flaps in an Arrow would slip a notch or 2 without warning. Then when parts were actually ordered, they refused to pay $30 extra to get the plane back up a few days earlier. At the cost of an average 6-8 hours/day of rental. I even had flaps get stuck down in my initial training in a 172 and had the CFI tell me to fly it to the next airport so an AP could fix it, then got charged for all that extra time at 35 kts and full flaps.

Ugh. That really sucks, and gives all clubs a black eye. I've heard some real horror stories.

Meanwhile, I'm the President of a club from the other end of the spectrum: Capitol City Flyers, Inc. out of Madison, WI. We fix all of our squawks. If we have a delay, it's because it's something inconsequential that we put off until we take the plane to a better shop - We use four different off-site shops as well as the one on the field, depending on what we're doing. And it saddens me that I have to tell this to all the prospective members because of the bad clubs out there. :(
 
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