One page summary of ATC privatization

RalphInCA

RalphInCA

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RalphInCA
Has anyone found, or created, an easy to read, one page summary of the ATC privatization fight?

I realize this is a complicated issue, but I'd like to post something on a bulletin board at our flying club that clearly summarizes what we general aviation pilots should be concerned about. Talking points, elevator speech, that sort of thing.
 
RalphInCA said:
Has anyone found, or created, an easy to read, one page summary of the ATC privatization fight?

I realize this is a complicated issue, but I'd like to post something on a bulletin board at our flying club that clearly summarizes what we general aviation pilots should be concerned about. Talking points, elevator speech, that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I can quickly explain how to accomplish that:

1.) Using MS Word or similar software, on a blank document, type; "There is no problem in ATC that would be corrected by privatization."

2.) Print document.

3.) Post document on your bulletin board.
 
Ask AOPA or EAA. They likely have one.

Tim
 
@roncachamp - Are there problems in ATC?

Saying there is no problem that will be corrected by privatization is different than saying it will make things better or worse.

Quite frankly, politicians address all kinds of problems I've never had, and likely never will, and send me a bill for the service. What's new?
 
roncachamp said:
I can quickly explain how to accomplish that:

1.) Using MS Word or similar software, on a blank document, type; "There is no problem in ATC that would be corrected by privatization."

2.) Print document.

3.) Post document on your bulletin board.
Click to expand...

^^^^This
 
Ravioli said:
@roncachamp - Are there problems in ATC?
Click to expand...

No.

Saying there is no problem that will be corrected by privatization is different than saying it will make things better or worse.
Click to expand...

It won't make things better. It could make things worse.

Those calling for privatization of ATC should identify the problems in ATC they believe would be corrected by privatization. They should also define "privatization".
 
roncachamp said:
Those calling for privatization of ATC should identify the problems in ATC they believe would be corrected by privatization. They should also define "privatization".
Click to expand...

They also need to define what the incentive is for the private company to do better. Especially in a monopoly position....

Tim
 
roncachamp said:
No.



It won't make things better. It could make things worse.

Those calling for privatization of ATC should identify the problems in ATC they believe would be corrected by privatization. They should also define "privatization".
Click to expand...

It will save LOTS of money.
 
jaybee said:
By hacking apart FERS just like every other government job that was privatized.
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..and vacation time, sick leave, employers share of insurance and you can fire the deadwood without it becoming a federal case
 
RalphInCA said:
Has anyone found, or created, an easy to read, one page summary of the ATC privatization fight?
Click to expand...

Point: "FAA-ATO service has never had any genuine incentive to modernize or operate efficiently and therefore costs more than it should because politicians (and general tax fund flows) stand between service provider and users."

Counterpoint: "So? It still works - right? It's just a ruse by the airlines to steal our airspace."

Consider these numbers (values are US dollars):

The 2015 average ATC cost per continental IFR flight hour of 25 members of the "Civil Air Navigation Organizations" (CANSO) was $360.
The figure for privatized Nav Canada was ~$330.
The figure for socialized FAA-ATO was ~$450.

The 2015 average ATC cost per oceanic IFR flight hour of 5 oceanic members of CANSO was $100.
The figure for privatized Nav Canada was ~$62.
The figure for socialized FAA-ATO was ~$99.

Source: "Global Air Navigation Services Performance Report 2016
2011 – 2015 ANSP Performance Results"

Everyone with a brain in the airline business knows that no one but the richest in GA could stomach those dollar costs. They know that ATC at those prices was intended to serve only them and therefore another cost of doing business - GA couldn't possibly make a dent in it. And as a cost of doing business they would want some control over it - the more substantial the cost, the more interest in finding ways of controlling it. So it should come as no shock that airlines would like a substantial representation in any ATC organization.
 
@Jim Logajan
Normalize the costs based on salary and standard of living. When you include countries such as Singapore and Cambodia for example, you pull the average cost down significantly. You would have a better argument if you had selected the mean cost per hour among countries with a similar standard of living.
There is a great phrase, there are lies, dam lies and statistics.

The incentive for the FAA-ATO service to modernize is the same for any government agency. They are paid too, because the politicians look over their shoulder which is supposedly watched by the public.
In the proposed structure, we lose the ability to look over the shoulder of the ATC entity. In fact, we lose the ability set funding and prices. Lastly, a large part of the control is ceded to the airlines.
So far, most of the advocates for privatization I have seen have an absolute belief that private companies are better and more efficient with no understanding/applicatgion of human behavior or economics.

Tim
 
The devil is in the details and there are no details. In fact there is not even an outline of a plan. So it's hard to make an argument one way or another.
 
The real problem is a "private" company that is under the purview of Congress. Think of Amtrak:rolleyes:.

Cheers
 
Everskyward said:
The devil is in the details and there are no details. In fact there is not even an outline of a plan. So it's hard to make an argument one way or another.
Click to expand...

Actually, there is a rather detailed plan. And it is not in favor of general aviation.
The Trump administration made minor changes to the Shuster proposal last year.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Actually, there is a rather detailed plan. And it is not in favor of general aviation.
The Trump administration made minor changes to the Shuster proposal last year.

Tim
Click to expand...
Could you post it here?
 
The argument for privatization is one of the least intelligent I've heard in too many revolutions around our primary star. Congress seems unable to do much of anything including its primary function of funding the government, so instead of fixing a broken Congress we'll just give federal assets away to private individuals. Government by oligarchy at its finest.
 
tspear said:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/2997/text

Tim
Click to expand...
Thanks, but I narrowed it down to this link so that people don't need to search through the whole bill.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th...97/text#toc-H795CB20BF9044C038B59ACBB6976A9B2

In all those words, I only see the proposed composition of the board, remarks on oversight by the FAA, and items relating to labor. I don't see any details on how they intend to raise money or charge users, both GA and airlines.

Section 90313 addresses fees, but not in any detail at all.
 
Jim Logajan said:
The 2015 average ATC cost per continental IFR flight hour of 25 members of the "Civil Air Navigation Organizations" (CANSO) was $360.
The figure for privatized Nav Canada was ~$330.
The figure for socialized FAA-ATO was ~$450.
Click to expand...

Thing is - FAA service is at least 2x better than any other CANSO country. I've used ATC services in 9 CANSO members airspace, and nothing comes even halfway close to FAA.
 
A privately owned company working under a government contract is a proven efficient method for saving money and delivering on-time quality. Just look at the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Point: "FAA-ATO service has never had any genuine incentive to modernize or operate efficiently and therefore costs more than it should because politicians (and general tax fund flows) stand between service provider and users."

Counterpoint: "So? It still works - right? It's just a ruse by the airlines to steal our airspace."
Click to expand...

The move from manual separation on an airway basis to radar separation on an area basis seems like modernization to me. The move from manual processing of flight data to automated processing seems like modernization to me.
 
You guys really believe congress will pass a bill that will cost their billionair buddies with private jets money?
 
steingar said:
The argument for privatization is one of the least intelligent I've heard in too many revolutions around our primary star. Congress seems unable to do much of anything including its primary function of funding the government, so instead of fixing a broken Congress we'll just give federal assets away to private individuals. Government by oligarchy at its finest.
Click to expand...

This reminded me of a Neal Stephenson book "Snow Crash". https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Crash-N...20&sr=8-1&keywords=snow+crash+neal+stephenson

Almost every function of government is privatized and franchised. It's an interesting dystopian view.
 
Everskyward said:
Thanks, but I narrowed it down to this link so that people don't need to search through the whole bill.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th...97/text#toc-H795CB20BF9044C038B59ACBB6976A9B2

In all those words, I only see the proposed composition of the board, remarks on oversight by the FAA, and items relating to labor. I don't see any details on how they intend to raise money or charge users, both GA and airlines.

Section 90313 addresses fees, but not in any detail at all.
Click to expand...
Here's some detail. Not in dollars and cents, but it paints the picture.

“(d) Standards.—The Secretary shall apply the following standards in reviewing a proposal from the Corporation under subsection (c):

“(1) The amount or type of charges and fees paid by an air traffic services user may not—

“(A) be determinant of the air traffic services provided to the user; or

“(B) adversely impact the ability of the user to use or access any part of the national airspace system.

“(2) Charges and fees shall be consistent with the document titled ‘ICAO’s Policies on Charges for Airports and Air Navigation Services’, Ninth Edition, 2012.

“(3) Charges and fees may not be discriminatory.

“(4) Charges and fees shall be consistent with United States international obligations.

“(5) Certain categories of air traffic services users may be charged on a flat fee basis so long as the charge or fee is otherwise consistent with this subsection.

“(6) Charges and fees may not be imposed for air traffic services provided with respect to operations of aircraft that qualify as public aircraft under sections 40102(a) and 40125.

“(7) Charges and fees may not be imposed for air traffic services provided with respect to aircraft operations conducted pursuant to part 91, 133, 135, 136, or 137 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

“(8) Charges and fees may not be structured such that air traffic services users have incentives to operate in ways that diminish safety to avoid the charges and fees.

“(9) Charges and fees, based on reasonable and financially sound projections, may not generate revenues exceeding the Corporation’s current and anticipated financial requirements in relation to the provision of air traffic services.
roncachamp said:
I didn't see any identification of the current problems in ATC and an explanation of how this legislation would correct them. Did I miss them?
Click to expand...
 
roncachamp said:
I didn't see any identification of the current problems in ATC and an explanation of how this legislation would correct them. Did I miss them?
Click to expand...
Nah. It dont go into quality of ATC service. Its about cost of ATC service
 
cowman said:
In all seriousness, it will probably save someone LOTS of money.
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It's gonna make some someones lotsa money. There are no limitations on executive compensation. The "spread" between the bosses paycheck and the worker bees paycheck will probably start looking a little more like the airline industry. You may start seeing controller crashpads.
 
luvflyin said:
Nah. It dont go into quality of ATC service. Its about cost of ATC service
Click to expand...

I don't recall Trump saying much about costs when he called for ATC privatization last June. I remember him saying tracking airplanes with GPS would improve on tracking by radar, that it would result in reduced delays and greater safety, but I don't remember anyone explaining how it would accomplish those things.
 
luvflyin said:
Here's some detail. Not in dollars and cents, but it paints the picture.

“(d) Standards.—The Secretary shall apply the following standards in reviewing a proposal from the Corporation under subsection (c):

“(1) The amount or type of charges and fees paid by an air traffic services user may not—

“(A) be determinant of the air traffic services provided to the user; or

“(B) adversely impact the ability of the user to use or access any part of the national airspace system.

“(2) Charges and fees shall be consistent with the document titled ‘ICAO’s Policies on Charges for Airports and Air Navigation Services’, Ninth Edition, 2012.

“(3) Charges and fees may not be discriminatory.

“(4) Charges and fees shall be consistent with United States international obligations.

“(5) Certain categories of air traffic services users may be charged on a flat fee basis so long as the charge or fee is otherwise consistent with this subsection.

“(6) Charges and fees may not be imposed for air traffic services provided with respect to operations of aircraft that qualify as public aircraft under sections 40102(a) and 40125.

“(7) Charges and fees may not be imposed for air traffic services provided with respect to aircraft operations conducted pursuant to part 91, 133, 135, 136, or 137 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

“(8) Charges and fees may not be structured such that air traffic services users have incentives to operate in ways that diminish safety to avoid the charges and fees.

“(9) Charges and fees, based on reasonable and financially sound projections, may not generate revenues exceeding the Corporation’s current and anticipated financial requirements in relation to the provision of air traffic services.
Click to expand...
None of what you quote sounds necessarily better or worse than the existing system. What the existing system has going for it is that it is already existing.
 
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