towered airport question. call ground to taxi to self serve fuel pumps?

rbridges

rbridges

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rbridges
I'm almost scared to think how stupid this question is, but figured I'd take my lumps online vs getting in trouble at an airport. I'm based at a non-towered airport, and I've never done much besides land, park and takeoff from towered airports. I'm dropping a friend off at KLAL for avionics upgrades. I figured I'll end up parking at the avionics shop, but I'll need to get self serve fuel. My question is do you need to contact ground to move around if they're adjacent to each other i.e. not crossing taxiways, etc?
 
Look for the movement area boundary marking, which is similar to the hold-short marking but with half as many lines:

movement_area_boundary_dia.png


The airplane needs permission from ground control before crossing the solid line.
 
that's what I thought. I figured I was safe if I stayed behind the line, but I felt I better ask.
 
I train at KLAL. Short answer is yes, you need to contact them unless you're on the ramp with the pumps.

The scuttlebutt is that they hate those calls. Lol. Going from E2 to E3 to fill up -- you can hear it in their voices sometimes when they respond. Haha
 
Vortex_AV8R said:
I train at KLAL. Short answer is yes, you need to contact them unless you're on the ramp with the pumps.

The scuttlebutt is that they hate those calls. Lol. Going from E2 to E3 to fill up -- you can hear it in their voices sometimes when they respond. Haha
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Hmmm . . . Following annoying rules annoys the very people who must fill out paperwork to violate you if you don't annoy them by asking??
 
Make the call. . .Better to annoy them than to surprise them with a movement they didn't expect.

I annoyed the heck out of ground once, at an unfamiliar field, where it was dark as the grave - got some instruction about parking "anywhere on the pad", except the ramp was so dark I couldn't see squat; of course he could see me (or my lights, anway) and knew the layout. It was a freakin' VAST ramp, so I pestered him. It got a little heated - I had to make it clear I couldn't see what he could see.

I've kinda learned to just ignore attitude - getting it right counts more than ATC getting snitty. Most of them would rather you got it right, anyway. The rare jerk? Ignore the tone, press your case.
 
In my opinion Lakeland Linder Reginal is a big complicated airport.

Please spend some time with an airport diagram before you go and have one available for taxi instructions.

If I was flying there I would spend some time with a terminal area chart and have it out to manage the airspace and use the reporting points. It just makes things easier.
 
rbridges said:
I'm almost scared to think how stupid this question is, but figured I'd take my lumps online vs getting in trouble at an airport. I'm based at a non-towered airport, and I've never done much besides land, park and takeoff from towered airports. I'm dropping a friend off at KLAL for avionics upgrades. I figured I'll end up parking at the avionics shop, but I'll need to get self serve fuel. My question is do you need to contact ground to move around if they're adjacent to each other i.e. not crossing taxiways, etc?
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First off, this is not even close to a stupid question. Have you seen others on this site? But moving on ... it's always a good idea to basically ask ATC or ground exactly what you just posted here. "Hey ground, I'm new here, want to grab fuel and check in with you all before I did." That's all you need. They will probably reply back with welcome, taxi whatever. Always just quickly and efficiently state what you need and be honest. Say things like, first time landing here and would like this or that. Most will gladly help. Controllers at class B airports or middle of no where ground operators I have noticed all they care about is you not screwing things up. If you ask to clarify something, ask if this is ok, never a problem and answers are welcoming and nice. Assume something or just do what you think is best will upset (used nice word) them off and get you a bad reply for all to hear. Don't do that.
 
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Vance Breese said:
In my opinion Lakeland Linder Reginal is a big complicated airport.

Please spend some time with an airport diagram before you go and have one available for taxi instructions.

If I was flying there I would spend some time with a terminal area chart and have it out to manage the airspace and use the reporting points. It just makes things easier.
Click to expand...

And don't forget you can play a wild card - progressive taxi.
 
rbridges said:
I'm almost scared to think how stupid this question is, but figured I'd take my lumps online vs getting in trouble at an airport. I'm based at a non-towered airport, and I've never done much besides land, park and takeoff from towered airports. I'm dropping a friend off at KLAL for avionics upgrades. I figured I'll end up parking at the avionics shop, but I'll need to get self serve fuel. My question is do you need to contact ground to move around if they're adjacent to each other i.e. not crossing taxiways, etc?
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Don't be scared. Nobody's going to hurt you.

The regulation requires a clearance only to operate on runways and taxiways, it's best to not rely solely on the regulation. I'm not familiar with KLAL, what you describe probably does not require a call to the tower, but there's no downside to calling the tower. Required or not, your call will probably get the same response, "proceed as requested."
 
Vortex_AV8R said:
I train at KLAL. Short answer is yes, you need to contact them unless you're on the ramp with the pumps.

The scuttlebutt is that they hate those calls. Lol. Going from E2 to E3 to fill up -- you can hear it in their voices sometimes when they respond. Haha
Click to expand...

That they hate those calls suggests they're not needed. How do you know they are?
 
dmspilot said:
Look for the movement area boundary marking, which is similar to the hold-short marking but with half as many lines:

movement_area_boundary_dia.png


The airplane needs permission from ground control before crossing the solid line.
Click to expand...
For testing purposes, that always got confusing to me, you can move in the non-movement area, you can't move in the movement area(without ATC instructions). :)
 
As others have stated, if there's even the tiniest bit of doubt, go ahead and ask. Even if you're 99% sure, that's still 1 time in 100 you may be screwing up.

I find conversational transmissions often take the edge off. Something like:

"Lakeland Ground, Sky Arrow 467SA at the avionics shop with a question".

"Aircraft calling from the avionics shop, go ahead with your question."

"I just want to taxi from present position to the self serve pumps. Do I need a clearance from you to do that?"

The answer will be either yes or no. If the ground controller gets even a little annoyed by the question, that's his or her problem, not yours. Remember, they work for us and are their to assist us - NOT the other way around!
 
If you cross the line out of the ramp into a taxiway, you really should call the tower. ;)

As I stated, if you're already on the ramp with th pumps, just carefully roll on over and you're good.

I think the tower just gets miffed if they get a ton of calls to taxi from E2 to E3. Really not that big a deal. I believe a tenant on the ramp has complained before about people using 'his' ramp area to cut across. I don't know the ins and outs but I do know that you better call tower if you get on a taxiway.
 
I fly out of Orlando Executive (KORL). Normal procedure is to call ground when you get to the edge of the ramp area at a reporting point. So any movement on the ramp is not reported/required. I flew into Lakeland Linder for a poker run. When we came out to start (at KLAL) we were on a ramp area by the Sun N Fun hangars. (And there were a whole group of us starting and getting out of there.) I taxied to the edge of the taxiways and called ground. I got a, not chewing out-that's too strong, let's just say advised that I SHOULD have called before moving. This was in March of 2014 so things may have changed.

As others have said, at a strange airport, ask.

John
 
jsstevens said:
I fly out of Orlando Executive (KORL). Normal procedure is to call ground when you get to the edge of the ramp area at a reporting point. So any movement on the ramp is not reported/required. I flew into Lakeland Linder for a poker run. When we came out to start (at KLAL) we were on a ramp area by the Sun N Fun hangars. (And there were a whole group of us starting and getting out of there.) I taxied to the edge of the taxiways and called ground. I got a, not chewing out-that's too strong, let's just say advised that I SHOULD have called before moving. This was in March of 2014 so things may have changed.

As others have said, at a strange airport, ask.

John
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My son will be starting school at UCF, so I plan to be landing at KORL quite a bit. Is it a pretty GA friendly airport?
 
DMBand said:
First off, this is not even close to a stupid question. Have you seen others on this site? But moving on ... it's always a good idea to basically ask ATC or ground exactly what you just posted here. "Hey ground, I'm new here, want to grab fuel and check in with you all before I did." That's all you need. They will probably reply back with welcome, taxi whatever. Always just quickly and efficiently state what you need and be honest. Say things like, first time landing here and would like this or that. Most will gladly help. Controllers at class B airports or middle of no where ground operators I have noticed all they care about is you not screwing things up. If you ask to clarify something, ask if this is ok, never a problem and answers are welcoming and nice. Assume something or just do what you think is best will upset (used nice word) them off and get you a bad reply for all to hear. Don't do that.
Click to expand...
Good reply. Particularly good advice for towered airports with multiple crossing runways & taxiways. Much better to be talking than just driving around. I remember one particular airport essentially gave me progressives as I taxied slowly/carefully. Their AF/D entry had mentioned incursions as a problem and the controllers seemed to birddog it so they'd obviously been trained to try to prevent problems.
 
jsstevens said:
I fly out of Orlando Executive (KORL). Normal procedure is to call ground when you get to the edge of the ramp area at a reporting point. So any movement on the ramp is not reported/required. I flew into Lakeland Linder for a poker run. When we came out to start (at KLAL) we were on a ramp area by the Sun N Fun hangars. (And there were a whole group of us starting and getting out of there.) I taxied to the edge of the taxiways and called ground. I got a, not chewing out-that's too strong, let's just say advised that I SHOULD have called before moving. This was in March of 2014 so things may have changed.

As others have said, at a strange airport, ask.

John
Click to expand...

They can say SHOULD all day long but it still doesn't make a non movement area a movement area.

One time at Ft Bragg, ground scolded me over the radio for repositioning on the ramp. Called the tower sup later on and he said ground was incorrect in having me call him to reposition. They even have a nice airport diagram in base ops that's shows it as a non movement area. There are a few controllers honestly don't know the difference. Some pilots don't either for that matter.
 
At Palo Alto where I'm based, the "movement area" is very small. While calling Ground before moving from one part of the "non-movement area" to another is not legally required, the layout and traffic levels are such that it's usually necessary as a practical matter, and pilots almost always do so.
 
Velocity173 said:
They can say SHOULD all day long but it still doesn't make a non movement area a movement area.

One time at Ft Bragg, ground scolded me over the radio for repositioning on the ramp. Called the tower sup later on and he said ground was incorrect in having me call him to reposition. They even have a nice airport diagram in base ops that's shows it as a non movement area. There are a few controllers honestly don't know the difference. Some pilots don't either for that matter.
Click to expand...

I'm quite aware that you are correct. I'll also comply with "When in Rome". I'd much rather work with the controllers to get things done than stand on my rule book and posture. If I'd been reamed on freq as opposed to politely instructed I might have a different response, off freq.

John
 
rbridges said:
My son will be starting school at UCF, so I plan to be landing at KORL quite a bit. Is it a pretty GA friendly airport?
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I'd say yes, though I have 0 experience there as a transient. There are two FBOs: Atlantic (formerly Showalter) and Sheltair. 100LL is on the pricey side both places. I have no idea of fees and such.
 
Ended up being a non-issue. The guy in the tower was super nice. Told me I didn't need to report since they were in non-movement areas.

I did see a coyote or something running down the taxi way when I was leaving. I That's a first for me.
 
exncsurfer said:
For testing purposes, that always got confusing to me, you can move in the non-movement area, you can't move in the movement area(without ATC instructions). :)
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Just remember, The FAA is all about opposite day.

Movement area - can't move unless "authorized"
Non Movement - whatever dude.
Side Slip - look forward to see where you are going.
Forward slip - look to the side to see where you are going.

 
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