Sen Thune fighting the 1,500hr rule

Z06_Mir said:
Yes. 100% of this. And those people would become great pilots during that time frame and learn how to be PIC, make decisions and save your own bacon.
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How much single pilot IFR have you done, at mins you're nearly a blood smear, fly the line as a single pilot IFR guy below mins, wow
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Military training would have filtered out both pilots that took over fifty lives near buffalo. Military pilots that I've known , 6, were experienced and very sharp, with lots of hours before they flew for the airlines. IE:In the clutch, both pilots near buffalo did the wrong thing causing the accident to happen. Stick shaker went off, he raised the nose , she dumped the flaps....si ....o.....Nora! The military training is designed to weed out this type and get rid of them. Some might get thru but very few.
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Lolz
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Military training would have filtered out both pilots that took over fifty lives near buffalo. Military pilots that I've known , 6, were experienced and very sharp, with lots of hours before they flew for the airlines. IE:In the clutch, both pilots near buffalo did the wrong thing causing the accident to happen. Stick shaker went off, he raised the nose , she dumped the flaps....si ....o.....Nora! The military training is designed to weed out this type and get rid of them. Some might get thru but very few.
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Really? Do military candidates fly Dash-8's in icing conditions?
 
Absurd reply. A military trained pilot could easily have landed this aircraft as did the airplane that landed just before it with no problems and the one after. The two flying the accident aircraft were not competent and the pic had failed check rides numerous times. Raising the nose and dumping the flaps proves their incompetence.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Absurd reply. A military trained pilot could easily have landed this aircraft as did the airplane that landed just before it with no problems and the one after. The two flying the accident aircraft were not competent and the pic had failed check rides numerous times. Raising the nose and dumping the flaps proves their incompetence.
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What is your solution? Only military pilots should fly airliners?
 
James331 said:
How much single pilot IFR have you done, at mins you're nearly a blood smear, fly the line as a single pilot IFR guy below mins, wow
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I don't know what you're asking or what you're saying. Just because you fly single pilot IFR doesn't make you "nearly a blood smear". And I never said I fly below minimums or that every 135 person does.
 
And we've had examples of military pilots who've flown an entire career in the military and didn't meet the 1500 hour rule, in weak military funding times.

(Just as a point of order. I have no dog in the military vs civilian fight.)

121 carriers can set whatever training standards they like and neither the military or civilian pilot attending their testing and training programs can say boo about it.

If they turn people loose on the line that shouldn't be there, or return them to the line without supervision when they're failing tests, that's completely on them.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I don't know what you're asking or what you're saying. Just because you fly single pilot IFR doesn't make you "nearly a blood smear". And I never said I fly below minimums or that every 135 person does.
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I'm saying relaxing mins is a bad idea.
 
Military pilots don't need 1,500 hrs. They can get a Restricted ATP at 750 hrs.
 
jordane93 said:
Yet we have pilots flying fighters and tankers with very little flying before that and we trust them. 250 doesn't mean anything. How do you know many current new hires haven't been through a cloud?
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I've got 46 hours and I've been through a cloud
 
ktup-flyer said:
I've got 46 hours and I've been through a cloud
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366
 
paflyer said:
Really? Do military candidates fly Dash-8's in icing conditions?
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A military candidate wouldn't be flying a Dash 8 in icing because they're not a pilot. But, do military pilots (AF) fly the Dash 8 into icing? I don't see why not. It's approved for flight into icing.
 
Velocity173 said:
The F-16 pilot didn't do anything dumb. The controller in your link you provided was found primarily responsible for the accident.

However, there are plenty of other examples in the military of pilots ACTUALLY doing something dumb.
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See and avoid.
 
Velocity173 said:
A military candidate wouldn't be flying a Dash 8 in icing because they're not a pilot. But, do military pilots (AF) fly the Dash 8 into icing? I don't see why not. It's approved for flight into icing.
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My bud jimmy and I were discussing training. I guess that makes them candidates.
 
Velocity173 said:
The F-16 pilot didn't do anything dumb. The controller in your link you provided was found primarily responsible for the accident.

However, there are plenty of other examples in the military of pilots ACTUALLY doing something dumb.
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Yep, Exhibit "A"

 
paflyer said:
Running into another plane isn't what I'd call fine technique.
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Technique has nothing to do with an accidental collision either. The F-16 pilot was on an assigned vector.

Are you saying that a good pilot would somehow have a "Spider-Sense" to know that the vector was actually pointing them at the Cessna vs away? Do you think that a good pilot would have some super human eye sight and know exactly where to look for a tiny Cessna with almost a 300 MPH closure rate? Eyesight that would actually have to see through the nose of the F-16 because it was blocking it it at less than 2 miles out.

The pilot's actions in this case are nothing different than what a typical pilot would do. You can try and sharpshoot his decision making all day long but it wasn't dumb. As the NTSB put it, it was part of the "inherent limitations of the see and avoid concept." Meaning, it's understandable that this sort of thing will happen on occasion based on human limitations.
 
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paflyer said:
Hats off to your instructor.
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My CFI is a damn good one, but it wasn't with him lol. I went to pick up a plane at SAV with a friend of mine and I acted as his autopilot. It ended up being a good learning experience and he taught me the basics of instrument flying. First time flying a twin, and first time in actual IFR conditions. I'll never turn down an opportunity to learn something, especially when it's free!
 
"It’s really only a few of the real bottom-feeders that are the least well run, the least capitalized companies that are having the most trouble. A couple come to mind: Great Lakes and Mesa. There are still a few of them that have extraordinarily low starting pay, in the $20,000 range, barely above food-stamp wage levels, and they’re the ones that are still trying to continue to use what is a broken economic model and one that is not sufficient in this market to attract sufficient numbers of fully qualified candidates. They’re the ones that are having the most trouble.”

—Sullenberger

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sully-sullenberger-wants-save-faa-123442350.html
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Absurd reply. A military trained pilot could easily have landed this aircraft as did the airplane that landed just before it with no problems and the one after. The two flying the accident aircraft were not competent and the pic had failed check rides numerous times. Raising the nose and dumping the flaps proves their incompetence.
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No argument from me .... except for the military pilot being the solution. Let me tell you I have flown with some really stupid military pilots that shouldn't be allowed to fly passengers. Military pilots **** up on s regular basis. Nothing special about them.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Yes, they were. Right before the bust of the economy, I remember when I transferred down to ERAU. You could graduate on Sunday morning and Monday morning you would be in class at ASA in ATL. It wasn't a lengthy period, but yes, there was a time that people did get hired at 250 hours.

That said, I don't think the rule ends up changing. Someone politician is going to realize that relaxing safety regulations, followed by an accident, is going to end up with a lot of blood on their hands.[/QUOTE
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starglider said:
"It’s really only a few of the real bottom-feeders that are the least well run, the least capitalized companies that are having the most trouble. A couple come to mind: Great Lakes and Mesa. There are still a few of them that have extraordinarily low starting pay, in the $20,000 range, barely above food-stamp wage levels, and they’re the ones that are still trying to continue to use what is a broken economic model and one that is not sufficient in this market to attract sufficient numbers of fully qualified candidates. They’re the ones that are having the most trouble.”

—Sullenberger

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sully-sullenberger-wants-save-faa-123442350.html
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no argument from me about these companies. There are a couple of more I could add to that list, as well.
I've worked for the regionals most of my life. (Non-crew).

That said, most of the airlines we call "regionals" today, aren't. They are sub-service providers, flying aircraft sizes and route types that mainlines fly in other countries, and used to fly here.

If you want to create a path for lower time pilots to gain experience, do it with the true local-service airlines like Southern, Choice, or Boutique, or the regional box haulers like Suburban. This not only can help the pilots gain experience and become successful, but help the small communities keep and maintain the services they have lost in the last 20 years.

This is a pet rant of mine. So many small cities across the country have been dropped from the Air System, and this effects the local economies in many ways.
 
starglider said:
"It’s really only a few of the real bottom-feeders that are the least well run, the least capitalized companies that are having the most trouble. A couple come to mind: Great Lakes and Mesa. There are still a few of them that have extraordinarily low starting pay, in the $20,000 range, barely above food-stamp wage levels, and they’re the ones that are still trying to continue to use what is a broken economic model and one that is not sufficient in this market to attract sufficient numbers of fully qualified candidates. They’re the ones that are having the most trouble.”

—Sullenberger

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sully-sullenberger-wants-save-faa-123442350.html
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Interesting interview. It looks like Katie Couric really did her homework; she asked good questions.
 
starglider said:
"It’s really only a few of the real bottom-feeders that are the least well run, the least capitalized companies that are having the most trouble. A couple come to mind: Great Lakes and Mesa. There are still a few of them that have extraordinarily low starting pay, in the $20,000 range, barely above food-stamp wage levels, and they’re the ones that are still trying to continue to use what is a broken economic model and one that is not sufficient in this market to attract sufficient numbers of fully qualified candidates. They’re the ones that are having the most trouble.”

—Sullenberger

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sully-sullenberger-wants-save-faa-123442350.html
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A friend of mine flew for Mesa many years ago. He would jumpseat evening flights to get the meal and have a place to sleep. He was homeless before the word became popular. He lived in a mid 70s Ford station wagon.
 
FlyingElvii said:
If you want to create a path for lower time pilots to gain experience, do it with the true local-service airlines like Southern, Choice, or Boutique, or the regional box haulers like Suburban. This not only can help the pilots gain experience and become successful, but help the small communities keep and maintain the services they have lost in the last 20 years.

This is a pet rant of mine. So many small cities across the country have been dropped from the Air System, and this effects the local economies in many ways.
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No argument there from me. I did a year and a half at Ameriflight, probably the most invaluable experience I have. Because there, as a single pilot, you learned quickly or did something that would probably bend an airplane at best, or in a burning pile at worse. The problem is, you can fly 121 with less hours (and an aviation degree) than you can to fly 135PIC. Perhaps 135 PIC mins are where the changes should be.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
No argument there from me. I did a year and a half at Ameriflight, probably the most invaluable experience I have. Because there, as a single pilot, you learned quickly or did something that would probably bend an airplane at best, or in a burning pile at worse. The problem is, you can fly 121 with less hours (and an aviation degree) than you can to fly 135PIC. Perhaps 135 PIC mins are where the changes should be.
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Frankly I think of anything single pilot IFR should require more hours than dual pilot 121
 
James331 said:
Frankly I think of anything single pilot IFR should require more hours than dual pilot 121
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I don't think so. The flying public expect A LOT from an airline crew... actually they expect complete perfection. I also believe they know the difference between an AA Airbus and a code share ERJ.
I truly believe they expect more from the mainline crew.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don't think so. The flying public expect A LOT from an airline crew... actually they expect complete perfection. I also believe they know the difference between an AA Airbus and a code share ERJ.
I truly believe they expect more from the mainline crew.
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I'm not inclined to reject that premise outright, but I still think they largely thought there was one standard of operational experience in February of 2009 and found out otherwise. The livery bait n switch didn't help matters of course.

I'm not a supporter of OJT in revenue pax ops. I think there should be a bona fide apprenticeship laboratory flying boxes while accruing the kind of flight time that would empower someone to move up. Places like Ameriflight are in line with that, though the compensation and QOL drivers are not there for obvious (to me) reasons. Of course, if we incentivized that pipeline, the airlines would whine about labor feed and costs. They could just bring FFD flying in-house, but one can wish in one hand and ... on the other.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don't think so. The flying public expect A LOT from an airline crew... actually they expect complete perfection. I also believe they know the difference between an AA Airbus and a code share ERJ.
I truly believe they expect more from the mainline crew.
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They pax are cattle, most will give up any ounce of dignity or comfort for $20, if you toss in the illusion of "security" they'll even let you feel up their grandma and kids.

I just think there is a much smaller margin for real error single pilot IFR, also lots less single pilot IFR ships and crew with auto throttles, HUDs, etc etc, so 135 mins shouldn't be touched, heck most of the good companies want over double the mins anyways.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Well, that depends, what was her hour level when she got hired ? How much exposure had she received ?
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Nobody works at Colgan any longer than they have to. I would guess that a Colgan first officer with 2200 hours probably was hired with 2100 hours.

Still by the time you have 100 hours you should know that the way out of a stall is to decrease AOA.
 
flyingron said:
Nobody works at Colgan any longer than they have to. I would guess that a Colgan first officer with 2200 hours probably was hired with 2100 hours.

Still by the time you have 100 hours you should know that the way out of a stall is to decrease AOA.
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I can pretty much guarantee you would know that if you would have spent a couple hundred hours demonstrating them to students ! Interesting to note - in Sully's recent letter or remarks urging congress to avoid privatization he too also asks that they not reduce or further water down the 1500 hour requirement. Great minds think alike I guess.
 
Another aspect to colgen was the pay to play hour building the capt did before he got hired. Seems like that's still running on the US, complete with all the scum bucket companies who make a little side cash quasi padding logbooks for kids (cough, cough ameriflight)

http://www.eaglejet.net
 
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