My father-in-law flipped out at me for taking my wife up during an Airmet Tango

Only because he's your FiL, I'd try to talk it out with him. This is going to come up again and again. You need to make him realize, that while his thousands of hours in big jets is an impressive accomplishment, and undoubtedly makes him imminently qualified for the job he does, he is not more qualified in the area of flying small GA aircraft. It's as simple as that. If he's a normal, intelligent person, he'll see the logic of your argument. Try phrasing it in an analogy of some sort, one that isn't aviation. It's like a plumber and an electrician. They both work in construction, and they both string networks of things through homes to make stuff flow from source to destination. But you sure wouldn't want a plumber doing the electrician's job.
 
What if you left this page open on your computer for her to snoop after you leave the house?
 
Rykymus said:
Only because he's your FiL, I'd try to talk it out with him. This is going to come up again and again. You need to make him realize, that while his thousands of hours in big jets is an impressive accomplishment, and undoubtedly makes him imminently qualified for the job he does, he is not more qualified in the area of flying small GA aircraft. It's as simple as that. If he's a normal, intelligent person, he'll see the logic of your argument. Try phrasing it in an analogy of some sort, one that isn't aviation. It's like a plumber and an electrician. They both work in construction, and they both string networks of things through homes to make stuff flow from source to destination. But you sure wouldn't want a plumber doing the electrician's job.
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I've tried to talk it out with him he doesn't seem interested in listening to me. I told him everything that went into my decision to fly, and he still acts like I just didn't care and took a huge chance. Maybe in a week or two he will be a little open minded.
 
MassPilot said:
I've tried to talk it out with him he doesn't seem interested in listening to me. I told him everything that went into my decision to fly, and he still acts like I just didn't care and took a huge chance. Maybe in a week or two he will be a little open minded.
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You owe him no justification. You were PIC, you made the call. Why is he even involved in this discussion? And why hasn't your wife told him to back the f- off and stay out of her marriage, and her husband's decisions?

When it comes to parents/in-laws, you don't have your spouse's' back for the most part. You either have it all the way or you don't have it at all.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
You owe him no justification. You were PIC, you made the call. Why is he even involved in this discussion? And why hasn't your wife told him to back the f- off and stay out of her marriage, and her husband's decisions?

When it comes to parents/in-laws, you don't have your spouse's' back for the most part. You either have it all the way or you don't have it at all.
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You tell 'im Cajun :).
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
You owe him no justification. You were PIC, you made the call. Why is he even involved in this discussion? And why hasn't your wife told him to back the f- off and stay out of her marriage, and her husband's decisions?

When it comes to parents/in-laws, you don't have your spouse's' back for the most part. You either have it all the way or you don't have it at all.
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He's involved because my wife got him involved in the first place when I warned her about the possibility of some turbulence. Her parents have always been pretty overbearing and controlling. I do think it's a bit hard for my wife to listen to me over her father about flying matters when he has over 100 times the experience.
 
so what altitudes was the airmet for? Sometimes you see them for above 8000 or 12000 - and you're not going that high and you never feel a bump.

Sounds like this guy is the worst kind of old fashioned airline captain . . .

worst turbulence I EVER experienced was on a day without any airmets . . . . or any clouds. It was so bad the dog hid in the closet for two days after we landed.
 
MassPilot said:
He's involved because my wife got him involved in the first place when I warned her about the possibility of some turbulence. Her parents have always been pretty overbearing and controlling. I do think it's a bit hard for my wife to listen to me over her father about flying matters when he has over 100 times the experience.
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Go get your commercial.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Arming your wife with information is the best possible thing you can do. Going forward, I would suggest you start walking her through your decision tree, this will give her the confidence to be able to debate/ignore her father as required.
This avoids the majority of who do you trust issues.

Good luck,

Tim
 
comanchepilot said:
so what altitudes was the airmet for? Sometimes you see them for above 8000 or 12000 - and you're not going that high and you never feel a bump.

Sounds like this guy is the worst kind of old fashioned airline captain . . .

worst turbulence I EVER experienced was on a day without any airmets . . . . or any clouds. It was so bad the dog hid in the closet for two days after we landed.
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It was surface to 10,000 feet. We were 5500 on the way there and 4500 on the way back, definitely in the airmet.
 
tspear said:
Arming your wife with information is the best possible thing you can do. Going forward, I would suggest you start walking her through your decision tree, this will give her the confidence to be able to debate/ignore her father as required.
This avoids the majority of who do you trust issues.

Good luck,

Tim
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That's a good idea. Now I have to figure out how to teach her aviation weather without putting her to sleep lol.
 
Salty said:
I'm issuing a sigmet on your relationship. Good luck and clear skies to you....
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It's a damn shame. We were actually pretty close. I don't know what our relationship is going to be like now.
 
MassPilot said:
That's a good idea. Now I have to figure out how to teach her aviation weather without putting her to sleep lol.
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I think you just had lesson one. Keep flying with her and explaining the risks before the flight and as you make decisions during. She should have learned that your decision wasn't a bad one by living though it personally.
 
MassPilot said:
It's a damn shame. We were actually pretty close. I don't know what our relationship is going to be like now.
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Don't let this sour it, but you probably shouldn't let it fester either.
 
MassPilot said:
It was surface to 10,000 feet. We were 5500 on the way there and 4500 on the way back, definitely in the airmet.
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I swear, I have calmer days flying up here in MA when there's an airmet tango issued than when there's not. The "calm" days always seem to be the bumpiest. I would have made the same decision as you and I'm definitely not a risk taker.
 
OK, I was going to throw the wrench, but I guess the entire tool box will do;)

1. How many hours are you at?

This is probably his main point and believes his kazillion hours are better than yours. Remember, his idea of TB causes the soft drink to slosh in the pax glass a bit:confused::eek:

2. Have you taken any upset training?

If not, do it ... eventually, you're going to run into something totally unforecast.

My experience: My most massive upsets in 700+ hours were on days NOT forecast to have turbulence. I live in a mountain area, so mechanical TB is going to be an issue. Moderate around here in summer is a given, like the previous Arizona poster said. Worst case scenario is a major upset ... get "upset" training from an acro instructor and do some spin training as well. I think your FIL is over-board and not going to be calmed unless you fly something with a BRS chute.:(
 
Do you really think this could change your relationship with him? Seems like it would be a petty thing for him to do
 
MassPilot said:
That's a good idea. Now I have to figure out how to teach her aviation weather without putting her to sleep lol.
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Do it piecemeal. Never more then 15 minutes at a time. Watch the weather channel, know when we have a system coming through, and plane a practice flight knowing you are going to cancel. Then walk her through a part of information you have a doubt on, say "may I use you as a sounding board"?

Tim
 
jordane93 said:
Do you really think this could change your relationship with him? Seems like it would be a petty thing for him to do
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Never underestimate a man's ego, or his controlling nature. Before this @MassPilot was never a threat. Now he is; daddy might not be on a pedestal anymore. That is something that rarely benefits from a head on attack. Much better to work the foundations.

Tim
 
sheeeit, I thought wxbrief.com was broken because it shows an airmet tango every single day 'round here. I would never fly if I couldn't go up in an airmet tango. at first I was gonna say if I had access to a 20,000 hour pilot in the family I'd lean on him for questions/concerns, but sorry, this dude sounds like a dooooosh.
 
tspear said:
Never underestimate a man's ego, or his controlling nature. Before this @MassPilot was never a threat. Now he is; daddy might not be on a pedestal anymore. That is something that rarely benefits from a head on attack. Much better to work the foundations.

Tim
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Good post. This has little to nothing to do with aviation. But it puts the daughter in a position she can't win. She can't ignore her dads advice because of his experience.

Make sure you don't forget to think of the crap position she was put in.
 
I had that problem when my wife and I were first married. My father in law is one of my best friends and very opinionated on everything and is spring loaded to finding the faults with things. For example he will listen to an idea, any idea, and the first words out of his mouth will be, "the problem with that is..." My wife early on would call her dad to ask his opinion on a decision we had made together and although nine times out of ten he would agree but it would still drive me nuts. After she figured out that me, her husband may actually know what I'm talking about, she stopped calling her father. Don't be too hard on her, she's probably a daddy's girl just like my wife and eventually, she will learn to trust your judgement. You have to live with her, not her father. It will all be forgotten in time. On the other side of the coin and being the father of twin girls, nobody they marry will ever be as smart as I am. ;) Keep it in perspective.
 
MassPilot said:
"Great. Sometimes a sigmet warns of severe turbulence and you get no bumps. I think it was a very foolish decision and for somebody who has as little flying time as you, I'm very surprised. To me it shows very poor judgement... you're a risk-taker. If the airmet had moderate turbulence, I wouldn't have gone, but that's your decision. Quite frankly I think it was an unnecessary risk. As your father-in-law, that deeply cares about you and my daughter, I now have to wonder what other judgment calls you will make in order to do what you want to do based on emotion instead of removing emotion and doing what is right... safe flight home....".

[snip]

Later that night he sent a number of texts to my wife that we're lucky we survived and...that I better make sure I have good life insurance. He went on and on and really upset her.
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Wow, it's an AIRMET not a Severe Thunderstorm Watch/Warning. Does he even know the difference between AIRMET and SIGMET?

I would like him to describe the hypothetical scenario in which you could have crashed and died.
 
I detest prior mil folks who dismiss/denigrate recreational aviation, especially under the auspices of considering it beneath them to pay for non turbine equipment out of their own pocket. The fact he never did GA is telling, and a stereotype I attempt to break down everyday as a military pilot and GA aircraft owner.

From the nature of the exchange it is clear to me he doesn't respect you as a pilot and condesdcends to you because you're not a turbine pro pilot or military. I'll reserve my ideas of what kind of professional he wanted his daughter to marry to myself, as she is still your wife. I dont think your wife did you a solid by deferring to him on the question of whether it was ok to go fly. Again it condesdcends to you as a private pilot. I dont particularly care about her intent, as the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She's either on your team or shes rooting against ya.

Please don't take your FIL professional profile as the absolute authority on professional pilots and their views on private aviation. As a military pilot, I find your fil to be part of the problem. Your decision making was fine. Tell your wife to pick her allegiances better, or she can stay home while you go fly.
 
gsengle said:
Go get your commercial.
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That won't do a whole lot in my opinion. The F-I-L has made it clear he doesn't like small planes, which is probably the real crux of the issue. A lot of times airline pilots who don't understand GA and the differences of GA will make some assumptions that just aren't particularly relevant or valid. I've even dealt with this with some airline pilots who "get back into" GA after years at the airlines. They're still good pilots with some good perspectives, but ultimately lack understanding of the particulars of GA and get a lot of things wrong about it. Sounds like he falls into that category.

Personally, I wouldn't have sent him a text to tell him it was a good flight, that more or less invited the response you received because it was effectively a "Told you so." I realize the OP didn't mean it that way, but since this was done against the F-I-L's recommendation, that's how I imagine he took it.

Personally I think the working it out is between the OP and his wife, not the OP and his F-I-L. Getting instrument, commercial, multi, other training may help, and the F-I-L may eventually decide that "Ok, the kid is ok," but if he doesn't like small planes, then he doesn't like small planes, and probably won't. The real understanding that's important is between husband and wife.
 
Pilawt said:
Frankly, with that kind of attitude I don't think I'd want to fly in an airplane with your father-in-law as PIC.
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Flying requires rational and logical decision making, that leads to safe aviation for all of us. But I also worry about the folks that worry too much or seem overly anxious, since that clouds your rational decision making abilities. There are some people I wouldn't fly with because they just seem too tightly wound and it would worry me how they would act in a real emergency. You want someone cool, calm, and collected - not a nervous "the sky is falling" wreck.

MassPilot said:
I warned her about the possibility of some turbulence
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I don't think I've ever consulted with someone prior to a flight. I understand that most non-flying people find a lot of turbulence scary, but most people also know that when you fly there could be a few bumps. I make the go / no go decision on my own. In my experience consulting pax or warning them upfront typically just makes non flying people more nervous and anxious. And if you already are nervous or anxious that tends to magnify any turbulence, etc. If you tell someone the food they just ate may have expired I can almost guarantee they'll feel/get sick even if the food was perfectly fine

dmspilot said:
Does he even know the difference between AIRMET and SIGMET?
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This crossed my mind too. SIGMETs you don't mess around with. But an AIRMET? I think every one of my XC trips in San Diego have had an AIRMET for moderate turbulence "below one two thousand" and guess what, other than a few bumps in the Banning Pass most trips are glass smooth, even over the ubiquitous JLI VOR. But I will also say that I've cancelled trips if the PIREPS and winds didn't look right.. that's part of effective ADM and it sounds like @MassPilot made a very thorough an effective decision. His smooth and safe trip would be testament to that.
 
^"never consulted" with someone I mean non pilot pax. I'll consult plenty with other pilots, CFis, etc.
 
Regardless of who was correct about the turbulence, he deliberately stressed out a passenger AND a pilot knowing you had a return flight to make. If it truly was dangerous conditions then he just removed the "S" from IMSAFE. I don't care what happened or not, he showed incredibly poor judgement by not at least waiting until you returned home.

Now, my personal opinion, in my limited experience you did everything right. Put your foot down. Either he agrees that he not only made a bad situation worse but also made it you or your wife can't honestly rely on him for honest advice for situations where the go/no-go situation is much harder to judge; or he agrees that he will not discuss your flying with you or your wife ever again. There are no other acceptable options in my mind.
 
Ravioli said:
You summed it up with "My wife decided to call her Father"

You're heading towards one less smiling face in your avatar.

Do you call your Mother when dinner isn't on the table on time or, much worse, tastes like ****?
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That's completely over the top. She called her father for an opinion when I mentioned that their might be some turbulence. She regrets calling him and says she won't do it again before a flight. Essentially she made a mistake and she fully admits it. Don't give me this BS that I'm heading for divorce or something over this.
 
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