Last of the VOR/DME RNAV approaches about to be cancelled

RussR

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Russ
Of possible historical interest -
From the FAA's Instrument Flight Procedures Inventory Summary: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/ifp_inventory_summary/

There is 1 VOR/DME RNAV procedure remaining in the inventory (down near the bottom of the left column).

I found one, so I believe that's it, Kentland Muni, Indiana, 50I, VOR/DME RNAV or GPS RWY 27.
https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1706/pdf/06325VDRG27.PDF

However, according to the FAA's IFP Information Gateway, Production tab:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...ab=productionPlan&nasrId=50I#searchResultsTop

It is scheduled to be canceled on 8/17/2017 and replaced with an RNAV (GPS) RWY 27.

Not surprising, of course (actually I'm surprised it lasted this long), but certainly the end of an "era" I suppose.

So if you have a KNS-80, go fly it while you can!
 
I've certainly never flown any of those for real, but do remember flying one for fun at KPHN, way back in 2004 or so, VFR using a (non IFR-certified) KNS-81. End of an era, indeed.
 
I suppose you could still use your KNS-80/81 to fly IFR enroute (/I). I remember when I was training for my PPL back in 1990, these units were really state of the art.
 
So there's no lateral course guidance?

You fly to the IAF to/from DNV or BVT then turn inbound (or the PT) and hope you got your wind correction right?
 
So there's no lateral course guidance?

You fly to the IAF to/from DNV or BVT then turn inbound (or the PT) and hope you got your wind correction right?
Huh? As much lateral guidance as there ever is on a hold-in-loo and even more than you have on a regular PT.
 
So there's no lateral course guidance?

You fly to the IAF to/from DNV or BVT then turn inbound (or the PT) and hope you got your wind correction right?
You "move" the VOR to the waypoint and track the radial from the new location.

dtuuri
 
That's the whole point of those old RNAVS. Each waypoint behaves like a VOR in its own right. You set the radial on the course to it and fly the needle.
 
For a lot of us, the only RNAV equipment we have ever seen in person is a GPS. The concept of an "ancient" device like a VOR/DME RNAV being capable of doing the math to figure out your position relative to a VOR/DME fix just from the VOR/DME signal seems like some kind of dark voodoo magic. Don't even get us whippersnappers started on LORAN-C.
 
Years ago my wife learned to fly and her instructor had a rule "no GPS" for the student pilots. I borrowed an Apollo 920 from one of the other students since he wasn't supposed to be using it (and I wanted to have it to fly to Oshkosh that year). The plane my wife learned to fly in was equipped with a VOR/DME RNAV (two way point ARC thing, not as slick as the KNS80 we had in another plane). I showed her that the old brown Airguide books had the RADIAL/DISTANCE from the nearest VOR in each entry. I showed my wife how to set it in the RNAV. That was fine until she did that in front of the instructor, new rule: no RNAV of any kind.
 
You crazy kids with your fancy digital KNS-80/81 RNAVs, all lit up with with that purty gas discharge display... but, how many of you have heard of the King KN-74?

Behold the beauty of 1970s state of the art:
1zyi5s.jpg


Back in '90-92 when I was flying night freight we had a '77 C-310R in the fleet with this magical device in the panel... and it even worked! I never shot an approach with it, but I'll admit it was pretty nifty to use as none of our fleet had LORAN or GPS.
 
You crazy kids with your fancy digital KNS-80/81 RNAVs, all lit up with with that purty gas discharge display... but, how many of you have heard of the King KN-74?

Behold the beauty of 1970s state of the art:
1zyi5s.jpg


Back in '90-92 when I was flying night freight we had a '77 C-310R in the fleet with this magical device in the panel... and it even worked! I never shot an approach with it, but I'll admit it was pretty nifty to use as none of our fleet had LORAN or GPS.

Have to admit, I may try to get an approach in before it is shut down

I love the KNs-80 in my bird, since it does let me file direct (and I don't have the coin to install a fancy GPS)....




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Huh? As much lateral guidance as there ever is on a hold-in-loo and even more than you have on a regular PT.
My bad. I missed the "RNAV" after the VOR/DME. Thought it was "VOR/DME or GPS 27" and I couldn't figure out how you would establish the inbound course with just a pair of VOR's not aligned with the airport.
 
Huh? As much lateral guidance as there ever is on a hold-in-loo and even more than you have on a regular PT.

LOL. "Hold-in-loo" is funny compared to "Hold-in-lieu"!

I held in the loo this morning. Hahaha.
 
I am bummed. I just found the VOR/DME portion of the approached is NOTAM'd NA as of April 24...


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The KNS-80 is sweet for legality, if already installed. Fly with a portable GPS while defaulting to the /I designation as legal cover. For the uninitiated, the way a vor\dme based RNAV like the kns files direct, is by drawing the line with radial/dme user made waypoints based off adjacent vors with service volumes that overlap the direct plotted line. The problem of course is the the second you get off the line and request a new direct line that needs more than one radial/dme waypoint, you're in deep Doo Doo. Realistically nobody replots that crap, they just use GPS and just keep the /I for legality. I certainly wouldn't want to file an vor//dme RNAV direct line with 6-9 waypoints of 9 character length each, unless I really wanted to antagonize the controller lol. The Kns is certainly cheaper than the next /I alternative, the ring laser gyro, which I've flown with in the buff and 38. That one always makes me think of the meme alien crazy hair guy: "...Lasers."

This is the underlying navigation principle under which we taught fix to fix navigation in the usaf until 2012-13 when the FAA told us to knock it off. Navy called it point to point, but it's all the same. Manually visualizing a course line to navigate to a radial/dme point direct without any course guidance, other than basic visual trigonometry off an hsi with bearing pointers embedded, or an rmi/compass rose separate presentation. I don't miss it, but it def kept your mental math skills sharp. FAA banned the practice so we stopped teaching it. These days if you don't have a course deviation metric, the FAA won't let you do it. Their airspace, their circus I suppose.
 
I'll never forget the first time I flew with a KNS-80 ... I never imagined such situational awareness could be had so easily. Over the corn fields of Indiana, the KNS was a game changer to a super low time, intermittently current 22 year old. It was almost beyond belief to simply fly the needle all the way where I was going. From pilotage to KNS was a much greater leap for me than from KNS to GPS. In my 172, I used to set the KNS and then watch the KNS needle and GPS needle track together (years after first using the KNS). Funny thing is I don't remember what GPS the 172 had, but I sure remember flying behind a KNS again. The fact that I'm a bit of a Luddite and don't really trust GPS made it all the better (can't count the times I've had GPS fail on me).
 
The problem of course is the the second you get off the line and request a new direct line that needs more than one radial/dme waypoint, you're in deep Doo Doo. Realistically nobody replots that crap, they just use GPS and just keep the /I for legality. I certainly wouldn't want to file an vor//dme RNAV direct line with 6-9 waypoints of 9 character length each, unless I really wanted to antagonize the controller lol.
No, man. You just grab your handy PSION calculator with Flightmaster modules loaded in the back and fig'r it oot! :) Takes just a few seconds and...done. Don't need all those waypoints filed with ATC, just ones after the center borders, the rest you set up one at a time as you need them. I'd have Flightmaster plan and print my flight log while I was taking my shower in the morning, then a couple hours later, half way to Florida over Augusta, compare its ETA with my actual. Wasn't surprising to be within :30 seconds of predicted. I LOVED that thing. It also did weight and balance. (I still have it too, but it no worky no mo. :mad:)

dtuuri
 
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I usually just pick known waypoints (- they are usually on an airway (and therefore have a charted radial/DME).

I can "place" my waypoint up to 199 miles from the VOR I am receiving, so even long trips don't require filing more than three or four waypoints.


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Gosh, I'd forgotten about Flightmaster. You're dating yourself.
 
Jeppesen used to have enroute VOR/DME charts, that made routing easy. We had a small book, where we'd list all our common routes. Our King Air 200 had a King Goldcrown KNR 665, 10 waypoint system, and it was very accurate.
s-l225.jpg
 
I'm a relative young guy, but I did have the pleasure of utilizing loran on a cardinal during my complex endorsement transition circa 2000, granted handheld GPS were already in the scene so there was nothing groundbreaking, just to me as a new entrant. This thread is interesting regarding some of the more obscure vor/dme computers out there before I got into this wacky avocation.
 
Gosh, I'd forgotten about Flightmaster. You're dating yourself.
I can't throw mine out because I keep hoping someday I'll turn it on, it'll wake up and we can continue our love affair.

dtuuri
 
No, man. You just grab your handy PSION calculator with Flightmaster modules loaded in the back and fig'r it oot! :) Takes just a few seconds and...done. Don't need all those waypoints filed with ATC, just ones after the center borders, the rest you set up one at a time as you need them. I'd have Flightmaster plan and print my flight log while I was taking my shower in the morning, then a couple hours later, half way to Florida over Augusta, compare its ETA with my actual. Wasn't surprising to be within :30 seconds of predicted. I LOVED that thing. It also did weight and balance. (I still have it too, but it no worky no mo. :mad:)

dtuuri

Some interesting historical names in that newsletter.
 
I had forgotten about that gadget, and I had one (or perhaps have one in a junk drawer, along with my various Garmin portables.) I know Mike Busch, although I haven't seen him for many years.
 
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