Timbeck2
Final Approach
Yes, you should fly the Arrow.
<----- 43 hours in the Arrow.
<----- 43 hours in the Arrow.
Should I Fly the Arrow?
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Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
Interesting... why have an auto-extend? It seems an alarm should be enough of a warning? In a risk / benefit analysis I assume stalling somewhere on final is far worse than landing gear up
gsengle
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Most of the fleet has the auto extend feature disabled at this point.
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bgdriveway
Pre-takeoff checklist
The arrow is a great traveling plane. I have over 70 hrs in them. The arrow that is probably being sold that I have been trading maintenance for flying I was getting 130 -135 tas at about 8.5 gph. I planned 9. The plane had 72 useable. That's a long ride. I just got back yesterday from a weekend trip. Auto extend can be overridden if it's still installed, but as others said, most are disabled. It's a piper sb. Another one I flew, I just kept it in the locked out state as I flew.
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MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
These are the checkout requirements for the more advanced planes at my club. Seem reasonable to me.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
It depends on the FBO's insurance carrier, probably, but I had a 5-hour requirement to solo too. I ended taking my CFI to a couple of local fly-ins (in New Mexico a "local" fly-in is often 250 nm away).
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
My GUMPS is GUMPPS in a PA28. Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop, Pumps and SeatbeltsYou missed S. Some say Seat belts and others say Safety, but GUMP should be plural
And what's all this talk of Arrow? Airworthiness, Registration, Radio station licence, Operating limitations, Weight & Balance.
Seriously though - Fly the Arrow. I like them much better than the 172RG, but apparently not as much as the 177RG
Warlock
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I often describe my Arrow as the easiest plane I know to fly and land...its a 68 with speedmods an it does 140knt at altitude on 9.5 Gals all day long...the only way to hurt yourself is to fall off it preflighting...mine has the small backseat and Hershey bar wing...closest thing to a UH-1 in Autorotation when you pull the throttle...Useful at 998 but sort of hard to get more than three in it...it a nice little traveling machine...I also have a Warrior II (1982) with the tapered wing that seems to float and harder to land relatively and a Decathlon...still not sure how to land it.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
BTW, I kinda really hating flying the Arrow, although I put some 60 hours on it for the lack of alternative. It was the hershey bar wing version that basically had no climbing ability whatsoever, despite having a 200 hp engine. It was irritatingly difficult to extract the speed from it, and I amused myself for hours trying to find mixture position that was still ROP but provided power. In the last couple of flights I just ended gunning it at 2650 rpm non-stop. It felt like molasses otherwise. I have a Mooney with almost exactly same engine now and it's easily 20 knots faster on basic power settings, and climbs way better (although I have to admit that its greater wing span requires more attention when pushing it into a hangar). I think the only thing I liked about Arrow is its bulletproof gear. There's no way it would not go down. It may not lock down or whatnot, but there's not going to be a belly landing because of a powerpack failure, and no hydraulic oil covering your windshield.
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Ari
I own half of an Arrow I. it has 180hp. I plan 9gph and 130 KTAS in the middle altitudes, 120 KTAS at higher altitudes (highest sustained cross-country was 12,000 MSL, 15,000 density altitude which happens to match the service ceiling and, with full tanks and me and an instructor, I could tell the plane was happy to be there and not a foot higher). I usually land on time with more fuel reserves than planned. I have a little over 110 hours in it in about a year of ownership and it's a great cross-country machine. I spend more time per month shopping for a faster plane than I would gain by having one. I would not try to stuff two adults in the back seat, regardless of weight and balance. People say it glides like a brick, but that's unfair to the brick, which doesn't have nearly the same drag as the Arrow does with a windmilling propeller. No regrets about flying the Arrow. Since you don't even have to buy one to fly it, I say go for it.
As a point of reference, our insurance required me to have 5 hours dual plus 5 hours solo before flying as PIC with passengers. That was from 0 time in type and no complex endorsement beforehand.
As a point of reference, our insurance required me to have 5 hours dual plus 5 hours solo before flying as PIC with passengers. That was from 0 time in type and no complex endorsement beforehand.
flyersfan31
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10 hours? For an Arrow? And you already had the complex endorsement and 15 in an RG? That seems excessive to me. Like, over-the-top excessive. You may want to talk to another broker. It is a Cherokee with folding legs, not a DC-10. Unless you are <100-150hrs PIC I just can't see that requirement.
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There are videos on youtube of people landing with the horn going off. It's hard to make things foolproof when the fools are so ingenious.
I had an instructor tell a student that if she advanced the throttle a bit that beeping noise would stop and she went ahead and did just that and he had to take over when she was close to gearing it up.
gsengle
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Gsengle
Not this - originally the gear would automatically extend as a safety feature. Many have legally disabled it and all you get now is the warning. It caused more problems than it solved...
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Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
...it might sound silly but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to put fake gear levers in the training fleet that would actually have three green light up, etc. So much of your core foundational knowledge of aviation and plane handling is built on the first 10, 20, 30 hours of time... and the vast majority of people get that time in fixed gear 172s and Pipers. As stupid as it sounds to land gear up I can understand why people miss it... especially if after 200 hours of fixed gear time you get only the bare minimum endorsement
gsengle
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I wonder if this could backfire though - making one take the gear lever less seriously...
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MadseasoN
Line Up and Wait
My comparison and tips, off the top of my head:
Speeds are higher. Learn and fly the numbers.
Speed bleeds off quick with no/low power. I always fly approach with some power or the sink rate gets too high.
Put the gear down before entering the pattern. I do it 5 miles out. This will require adding a lot of power to stay level but now you're flying a fixed gear plane.
If you plan on flying at GW make sure you double check the W&B including zero fuel. Watch the CG - It changes with the gear raised.
It's a different airplane at GW. I suggest taking an instructor the first time.
Get used to using the trim more than in the C172.
Speeds are higher. Learn and fly the numbers.
Speed bleeds off quick with no/low power. I always fly approach with some power or the sink rate gets too high.
Put the gear down before entering the pattern. I do it 5 miles out. This will require adding a lot of power to stay level but now you're flying a fixed gear plane.
If you plan on flying at GW make sure you double check the W&B including zero fuel. Watch the CG - It changes with the gear raised.
It's a different airplane at GW. I suggest taking an instructor the first time.
Get used to using the trim more than in the C172.
The 182 and SR20 I can understand. But the DA40 just isn't that heavy, powerful or hard to fly. So there's a blue knob, but that's about all it has over a 172SP.
TheGolfPilot
Line Up and Wait
I used to go to a small northern New Mexico town and would fly commercial to Albuquerque then drive 5 hours. I put about 80 hours a year and 200+ hours total on 182RGs and one of the local flight schools in ABQ had a 182RG. Despite being a commercial pilot with IR rating and 200 hours in C82R's they still required 10 hours in theirs with an instructor. How stupid is that? I know it wasn't an insurance requirement because you had to bring your own.
The piper arrow is a great plane and can often be rented at a decent price. Livermore had two for a long time at $125 a hour.
Anytime you can rent an airplane for less than $1 per knot it's a good day, especially a complex one.
The piper arrow is a great plane and can often be rented at a decent price. Livermore had two for a long time at $125 a hour.
Anytime you can rent an airplane for less than $1 per knot it's a good day, especially a complex one.
MadseasoN
Line Up and Wait
5 miles is ballpark. Before the pattern is what I suggest. I'm at TPA by 5 miles out. The chance of losing an engine on downwind isn't much different than it would be 2 minutes earlier. To be realistic, unless you're abeam the numbers at TPA or on a high straight in approach you're probably not going to glide it in anyway. You're gonna be on the ground quick in the Arrow.
That being said, maybe after building some complex time and getting comfortable with the plane you can lower on final. For a newly endorsed complex pilot or a transition from the C172 I would suggest getting the gear down and maybe flaps 1 before entering the pattern. I'd rather be watching for traffic and focusing on the numbers than checking gear lights. Not to mention that in 20 hours I had a the gear stick twice. Don't want to deal with that in the pattern at a busy airport.
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gsengle
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No one said lower on final. Lower on *downwind* and plan descent to arrive at TPA as you arrive in the pattern. And keep it tight.
The issue is, and it happened to me, that you descend and can then lose power as you power back up for all the drag of the gear and to level off. Then you're down in the woods or whatever.
I lost power with gear down on downwind just like this, and I made the runway. Even in the brick of a glider that is the Arrow.
Dragging five miles at 1000agl dirty adds unnecessary risk. imho.
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Clark1961
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Hmmm, descending into the pattern in a low wing, hmmmm. I'll stick with the AIM.
gsengle
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If you read me, I said arrive at the pattern at pattern altitude. Not descending in the pattern. Yeesh
Does the aim say lower the gear and drag it in at pattern altitude way before entering the pattern?
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Clark1961
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Arriving at pattern altitude and at the pattern which is what you wrote is descending into the pattern. No ifs ands or buts on that. Sheesh.
blueskyMD
Pre-takeoff checklist
I flew Arrow II ( 1973 for about 500 hours before this Lance. My arrow had auto gear extender disabled. Piper sells a kit for that. But my Lance has it and I think its a good thing to have.
If you do have auto gear extension intact then there are couple of thing you should do. 1) There is a auto extension disable lever next to flap handle which you should pull up ( engage ) and after uneventful take off and clearing obstructions disengage it. 2. If you ever flying around icing conditions make sure the auto extensions is disabled ( lever in up position ) . The tube which looks like a pitot tube is on the driver's side is not heated and will ice up and extend gear at the worst possible moment. Don't ask me how I learned this !!
If you do have auto gear extension intact then there are couple of thing you should do. 1) There is a auto extension disable lever next to flap handle which you should pull up ( engage ) and after uneventful take off and clearing obstructions disengage it. 2. If you ever flying around icing conditions make sure the auto extensions is disabled ( lever in up position ) . The tube which looks like a pitot tube is on the driver's side is not heated and will ice up and extend gear at the worst possible moment. Don't ask me how I learned this !!
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Aztec Flyer
?? Do the 10 hours in one plane. Fly that airplane only until you have the required 25 that allows you to step into the others.
The high limits are due to the clubs/rental outfits and all the rest of us trying to keep their insurance premiums, especially hull loss coverage, manageable.
The coverage on my Aztec has "named pilots". Each has to log at least ten hours on the plane to stay on the list the following year, or it's no soup for you. My youngest brother is one of the named. Thousands of hours piloting F-18 Hornets, other military fixed and fling wings and currently pays the bills flying Boeing 787s. A thousand times the pilot I will ever hope to be. Didn't log 10 hours in the past year and now cannot use my plane - until he logs some dual. It's just the way it is...
Omalley1537
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Sean
I don't think his POA parole is up...might have seen his parole officer in the room...
MadseasoN
Line Up and Wait
Where I fly you should be at TPA by 5 miles out due to traffic.
How is it 'dragging it in'? I'm back at 65% cruise power (23/2400) after lowering the gear. That's up from 20/2400 at descent or maybe even down if already at cruise power. With the gear up I'd have to power way back, to slow down, entering the pattern then push the power way back up with the gear lowered.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I had to read that twice as the first time I read it sounded like you meant descend into the traffic pattern. Reread it and got what you meant. Just a wording deal, no biggie.
gsengle
Pattern Altitude
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Gsengle
If you're entering on the 45 get to TPA before you enter the 45. No one said descend while in the pattern or any segment of it. Clark, stop being a crotchety old troll.
The main point, and I speak from personal experience in 1995 at KBED, don't put your gear down until downwind.
Arrows don't glide well. Especially with gear down. Might save your life too.
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The main point, and I speak from personal experience in 1995 at KBED, don't put your gear down until downwind.
Arrows don't glide well. Especially with gear down. Might save your life too.
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Aztec Flyer
There is no perfect answer to solving the inadvertent gear up landing problem. This was one of Piper's genuine attempts.
Unfortunately, we humans being what we are, will always find new and creative ways to screw up.
So what is the condition that should trigger a "gear still up" alarm in a light plane?
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
I understand the cause of the limits, and frankly 10 hrs to fly what something that will have a much higher workload than an old 172 seems pretty low, it is not an unreasonably high minimum to be perfectly honest. But, for someone like me that still means something in the neighborhood of $2.5K, just to basically do a "checkout"
^I figured I have better ROI for that $2.5K if I double up that time towards a rating at least
Like you said people will always find a way to screw up. I would do 2nd knotch of flaps or more and throttle brought to idle. And give an option to silence. Will people still land gear up, even with the alarm blaring, sure, but at some point people need to learn on their own from their own mistakes. It boggles my mind that cleaning products need warnings on them "harmful or fatal if swallowed" - seriously?!
Relying on "lowering on downwind" is exactly the bad practice that leads to gear up. What happens when you are heading into a towered field and given a base or final entry or are flying an instrument approach to the runway? Nope, I lower when it makes sense in the approach scheme. I always CONFIRM on short final that the green lights are on.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
This. In my limited time in piston retracts (~100 hours in single and multi), I don't think I've done the GUMPS check less than 3 times when coming back for landing.
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
I'd be curious what caused your loss of power... but I agree with the general principle. My first time "at the controls" of a "plane" was in sailplane (I think I mentioned before bro in law was a glider pilot) and I was amazed how high we came in to the field, and how easy it was to slip in at the last minute. My first few lessons in powered planes also drilled that home "could you make it to the runway from here if you had an engine out?"
So I tend to come in a tad on the high end, but I've never had to actually go around for that and frankly at least the planes I fly can be brought down pretty easily on short final...
Of course there are reasonable limits, you don't want to land high and long, but staying a little high I see nothing wrong with that.. at SEE's 27L I have no problem stopping by the 17/35 intersection... and no I'm not standing on the brakes, just a little at the end
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
I may be misinterpreting it but I don't think he strictly meant it as that, I interpreted that more to mean "I lower it when I've in the immediate vicinity of the airport" <- which may translate to somewhere on the final if flying a straight in, etc, or on the downwind
*But, I do agree that this is where over habitualizing one behavior can lead to mistakes, and if 95% percent of your landings follow pattern A->B->C->D then a mistake can easily occur if that pattern changes. As embarrassed as I am to admit it I've forgotten to turn off carb heat, etc., if something messes up my flow
To that point, as important as checklists are to making sure you "checked" what you did it's also important that flying become as second nature intuitive as possible so even if your flow gets altered you still have strong situational awareness
gsengle
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Gsengle
Ok again, use common sense. LOWER NO SOONER THAN DOWNWIND.
Don't lower until you're at the airport. And check your gear on downwind, base, final and over the fence. And for those that won't again apply common sense, if you don't fly a downwind for instance, that check won't apply.
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flyersfan31
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Freiburgfan31
Beechcraft didn't think it was silly. They actually did that for a time in Musketeers, and may even have offered that option in the Sundowner. Mine didn't have it.