night currency

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Matt C

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Matt C
Hello again all. I already know the generic answer is contact my CFI but here we go. I'm still low time as far as I'm concerned (under 150 total hours), I own my first airplane (C172) and I haven't done any night ops since required PPL training. How much should I be concerned about practicing and getting "current" for night operations? I'm tempted to try to get current enough to have passengers up for July 4 fireworks. I didn't have any trouble or reservation during my training process and actually enjoyed night flying despite the challenges of doing my first long cross country flight at night.
 
Two part answer:
If you're in doubt, go do more dual night until you're really comfortable. Then do the minimums to stay current.

Don't bother with flying around fireworks. It sounds far cooler than it actually is. You'll be above them (where the smoke goes), wearing headsets (so no cool booms). Oh, and you'll be flying an airplane at night which is way more cool!
 
Matt C said:
Hello again all. I already know the generic answer is contact my CFI but here we go. I'm still low time as far as I'm concerned (under 150 total hours), I own my first airplane (C172) and I haven't done any night ops since required PPL training. How much should I be concerned about practicing and getting "current" for night operations?
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You should be concerned. You need to be fully comfortable with night operations prior to taking any passengers along with you. It's not something to take lightly by just trying to wing it.

If you don't feel comfortable trying to get current on your own, then bring a CFI along. I just became night current after a few years hiatus from night flying. For me I didn't feel the need to bring a CFI along, I just gradually got back into it and surprisingly felt very comfortable considering how much time had lapsed.

Good luck! Night flying is a blast!
 
Go do a few laps with a CFI if you're uncomfortable, but I think you'll find it will be easier at 150 hours than it was as a student.
 
Ravioli said:
Two part answer:
Don't bother with flying around fireworks. It sounds far cooler than it actually is. You'll be above them (where the smoke goes), wearing headsets (so no cool booms). Oh, and you'll be flying an airplane at night which is way more cool!
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This is one of those things where opinions differ greatly. See previous thread on the subject:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/night-flight-4th-of-july.72048/

My view (in post 52: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/night-flight-4th-of-july.72048/page-2#post-1494194 ) is pretty much the opposite of @Ravioli 's. I think it's neat having a different perspective. It helps that in large parts of where I live, fireworks are legal and for sale everywhere, so every neighborhood will have several driveway shows going on simultaneously. It's good fun!
 
Not during the 4th...but I have seen fireworks from the air...it was a dud. Sounds way cooler than it actually is in person...now if you were flying in say the LA Basin where they are going off everywhere...maybe different story as mentioned above.

Night proficiency varies quite a bit from pilot to pilot. Some it is a non issue, some have issues with depth perception.

If all you have is your PPL min night experience, I would go do your three night laps with a CFI before taking up PAX to make sure you are both proficient and current.
 
If you go out as its getting dark you can actually start when it's light out and then ease into total darkness.
 
I'm a city dweller... so night flying for me is FANTASTIC. SoCal lights in every direction. I love it. Go up there and do it... make sure you get practice tooling around before you take pax. Have a CFI practice with you at poorly lit fields and hell, even simulate an electrical failure at night. Human beings are naturally day people, so the transition to night time goes against your biology. Make sure you practice.
 
ircphoenix said:
Have a CFI practice with you at poorly lit fields and hell, even simulate an electrical failure at night.
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Good suggestion...I had an actual landing light failure on a night flight. Pre flight check was fine, turned final and thought "man, it is dark"...nada, zip, dead and gone!

Had just replaced my red Beacon with a very bright LED unit so about one every second I got a red flash of...there's the runway...black...theres the runway...black...there's the runway...black...

Wasn't one of my top 10 landings even with runway lights!
 
Lando said:
If you go out as its getting dark you can actually start when it's light out and then ease into total darkness.
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This. That's what I did for my first two flights and then the third was a complete night flight. It really helps to get your eyes and senses adjusted.
 
RussR said:
This is one of those things where opinions differ greatly. See previous thread on the subject:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/night-flight-4th-of-july.72048/

My view (in post 52: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/night-flight-4th-of-july.72048/page-2#post-1494194 ) is pretty much the opposite of @Ravioli 's. I think it's neat having a different perspective. It helps that in large parts of where I live, fireworks are legal and for sale everywhere, so every neighborhood will have several driveway shows going on simultaneously. It's good fun!
Click to expand...

Here in Texas they sell all kinds of stuff that would never be allowable in other states. My place is on what could be called a hill in these parts. (Elev 800') From my backyard I see no less than 30 "big shows" and then there are all the driveway do-it-yourself people.

Ever flown in to SNA just after sunset? Disneyland does nightly shows. For that matter, when I was a teenager we used to go up on nearby hill with whatever booze we could find, and usually with whatever girls we could find and watch the Disney fireworks from 20 miles away. Pretty lights, no sound.

My main point is that when you want to watch fireworks you should park your butt in a lawn chair.
 
Back when I was a student my instructor and I got to fly over Disney World and over the fireworks show. That was fantastic..!!!
 
ircphoenix said:
I'm a city dweller... so night flying for me is FANTASTIC. SoCal lights in every direction. I love it. Go up there and do it... make sure you get practice tooling around before you take pax. Have a CFI practice with you at poorly lit fields and hell, even simulate an electrical failure at night. Human beings are naturally day people, so the transition to night time goes against your biology. Make sure you practice.
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You need to try flying at night in the middle of nowhere on a full moon night. Very different experience, and you would be amazed at how much you can see if you keep the panel lights low and turn off the iPad.
 
Also practice with the runway lights off. One of my last night flights I clicked the mic 7 times and nothing. Was strange as they worked when I took off. Dialed up the localizer and followed it in and the trusty led landing light didnt disappoint.

Had the tractor landing light fail on me before hence the led.

Moral is grab a cfi and go out and practice non standard things. Makes you confident and proficient. And when the lights do fail you it will be a non issue as you've seen it before. Night flying is magical and sadly I don't do enough of it.
 
If you are concerned enough to ask the question, you should go with a CFI. You may get to a point with experience that you would feel comfortable getting night current on your own even after a year or two, but you are obviously not there.

On the fireworks, it depends. I did one of two of those flights. You don't get close enough to any of them to see anything as good as from the ground, but with 100 miles visibilities (I was then in the Denver area) it is fun to see a whole bunch of them at once. Christmas lights in a densely populated area is far more interesting.
 
Thanks for all of the responses, I appreciate the perspective. I think I will end up with my instructor for the non-standard practice as suggested, I hadn't really thought of that.

Regards
 
Matt C said:
Hello again all. I already know the generic answer is contact my CFI but here we go. I'm still low time as far as I'm concerned (under 150 total hours), I own my first airplane (C172) and I haven't done any night ops since required PPL training. How much should I be concerned about practicing and getting "current" for night operations? I'm tempted to try to get current enough to have passengers up for July 4 fireworks. I didn't have any trouble or reservation during my training process and actually enjoyed night flying despite the challenges of doing my first long cross country flight at night.
Click to expand...

If your day landings are good, just fly in late afternoon and practice landings after sunset during civil twilight and continue as the light continues into night and complete a few more. This will ease your transition back into night landings, and you could do it all in about one hour.
 
SbestCFII said:
If your day landings are good, just fly in late afternoon and practice landings after sunset during civil twilight and continue as the light continues into night and complete a few more. This will ease your transition back into night landings, and you could do it all in about one hour.
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This. Although, keep in mind that being night "current" doesn't just involve takeoffs and landings. Being able to comfortably navigate at altitude is part of it too.
 
All this talk of night currency has me wondering... is that the extra c-note you carry for when the credit card gets declined at the watering hole?

[We now return you to the aviation thread already in progress]
 
SbestCFII said:
If your day landings are good, just fly in late afternoon and practice landings after sunset during civil twilight and continue as the light continues into night and complete a few more. This will ease your transition back into night landings, and you could do it all in about one hour.
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That's a great idea. Like so many others I don't have any time at night either since my PPL training days... which kind of sucks to be honest, flying at night was one of my favorites... it was beautiful with the lights and it awakened those memories of "this is what it must be like to be a real pilot"

Ryanb said:
Being able to comfortably navigate at altitude is part of it too.
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but admittedly this is my bigger worry, being in the relative security of the pattern you don't really get the right kind of experience I feel like you need. Night currency in my case would be useful after spending the day somewhere like Palm Springs, and then coming back in the socal around sometime between 7-9pm. It's those big black mountains that scare me. FF (Foreflight/flight following) and glass are great, but there's still a heightened level of attention needed.. and in the unlikely event of an engine failure landing in a black unlit field is that much more challenging

Frankly, I may do option option one from @SbestCFII myself just to get legally current, but do a proper XC all at night with a CFI to really get comfortable with it all again
 
Looked like the post was primarily about currency for carrying passengers.

Night takeoffs and landings are more challenging than night XC navigation. Unless someone has vision issues that impact night flight, most XC night flight is, from my perspective, more or less the same as day VFR flight. Naturally, you need to be mindful of the illusory issues we all learn. I believe most active pilots today use some type of GPS to get from A to B. Picking out airports from a distance is sometimes less difficult at night, except when there is a confluence of lights near the airport, usually in or near cities. In those cases, I usually employ an approach, or just use the OBS mode on the GPS, to orient myself to active runway at the airport. The real beauty of night flying is smoothness of flight you usually have, less traffic, lack of incessant VFR chatter and "any traffic in the pattern please advise", and the more relaxed tempo of ATC operations. These combine to makes night XC flying much more pleasant than daytime.
 
Tantalum said:
but admittedly this is my bigger worry, being in the relative security of the pattern you don't really get the right kind of experience I feel like you need. Night currency in my case would be useful after spending the day somewhere like Palm Springs, and then coming back in the socal around sometime between 7-9pm. It's those big black mountains that scare me. FF (Foreflight/flight following) and glass are great, but there's still a heightened level of attention needed.. and in the unlikely event of an engine failure landing in a black unlit field is that much more challenging
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And rightfully so! Night flying requires precision altitude and airspeed as well as knowing the terrain that's around you. You're definitely undertaking a higher level of risk at night in a single engine airplane, but it can be reduced by having efficient ADM and CRM.

But then again, the airplane doesn't know it's night time, does it? ;)
 
SbestCFII said:
Looked like the post was primarily about currency for carrying passengers.

Night takeoffs and landings are more challenging than night XC navigation. Unless someone has vision issues that impact night flight, most XC night flight is, from my perspective, more or less the same as day VFR flight. Naturally, you need to be mindful of the illusory issues we all learn. I believe most active pilots today use some type of GPS to get from A to B. Picking out airports from a distance is sometimes less difficult at night, except when there is a confluence of lights near the airport, usually in or near cities. In those cases, I usually employ an approach, or just use the OBS mode on the GPS, to orient myself to active runway at the airport. The real beauty of night flying is smoothness of flight you usually have, less traffic, lack of incessant VFR chatter and "any traffic in the pattern please advise", and the more relaxed tempo of ATC operations. These combine to makes night XC flying much more pleasant than daytime.
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It was, but "currency" shouldn't just include the renewed ability to takeoff and land at night. You're not going to get passengers and just fly circles in the pattern are you?

Takeoffs and Landings are only half of what's really needed to say "I'm night current."
 
Ryanb said:
But then again, the airplane doesn't know it's night time, does it?
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I used to (still do?) have a somewhat (ir)rational fear of flying single engine over water out of glide distance to land. Someone I work with (CFI, ex-DL pilot) would always remind me that the plane doesn't know if it's over water or land. Nor if it's in the clouds or not. The human factor is quite real. How many accidents are caused by things breaking? Even many engine failures have a preventable cause (fuel starvation, carb ice, improper leaning technique, etc.)
 
Tantalum said:
I used to (still do?) have a somewhat (ir)rational fear of flying single engine over water out of glide distance to land. Someone I work with (CFI, ex-DL pilot) would always remind me that the plane doesn't know if it's over water or land. Nor if it's in the clouds or not. The human factor is quite real. How many accidents are caused by things breaking? Even many engine failures have a preventable cause (fuel starvation, carb ice, improper leaning technique, etc.)
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Yeah. HOWEVER, even though the chances of failure are the same over land or over water, the RISK is higher over water. You can't just "walk away" from a water landing.
 
Ryanb said:
It was, but "currency" shouldn't just include the renewed ability to takeoff and land at night. You're not going to get passengers and just fly circles in the pattern are you?

Takeoffs and Landings are only half of what's really needed to say "I'm night current."
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Nope, but like I said, I don't think that night XC is all that challenging in my experience and I've flown several hundred of my hours as night XC. You plan a proper flight, execute your plan and you should be fine. P-poor planning would be another animal altogether. Obviously you'll plan proper headings and altitudes for your route of flight, but it's still not all that complex. If you're going willy-nilly into the mountains without proper route and altitude planning, then you're simply not a very conscientious pilot. Same with weather, you're not going to plan a VFR night XC at altitudes near, at, or above where you might encounter clouds at night. Good to avoid moonless nights, flight over water or featureless terrain that would be defacto IFR conditions. Just exercise good common sense flight planning and stick with the plan.
 
Tantalum said:
I used to (still do?) have a somewhat (ir)rational fear of flying single engine over water out of glide distance to land. Someone I work with (CFI, ex-DL pilot) would always remind me that the plane doesn't know if it's over water or land. Nor if it's in the clouds or not. The human factor is quite real. How many accidents are caused by things breaking? Even many engine failures have a preventable cause (fuel starvation, carb ice, improper leaning technique, etc.)
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The person you work with doesn't understand risk management.
 
^well she did remind me on life jackets
 
Tantalum said:
I used to (still do?) have a somewhat (ir)rational fear of flying single engine over water out of glide distance to land.
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Put some amphibious floats on it, then you won't have to care whether you're over land or water. :yesnod:
 
Ryanb said:
It was, but "currency" shouldn't just include the renewed ability to takeoff and land at night. You're not going to get passengers and just fly circles in the pattern are you?

Takeoffs and Landings are only half of what's really needed to say "I'm night current."
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Fair assessment of my concern Ryanb. The legal requirements are obvious, I guess what I was going for was maybe more about competent than "current". I was hoping for input about other problems that may arise other than the "how do I get back down?" thingy. I remember, for example, that navigating at night was ridiculously easy around here (you can see everything) and landings were similar to day landings but darker (eye roll here) so I wondered what I'm missing. Some great responses so far from everyone - thanks.
 
I actually find some aspects of night flying to be easier than day. The air tends to be smoother, skies around here tend to clear up later at night, and I think it's easier to find airports at night, all you have to do is look in the right general direction until you see the beacon. Most places here in the midwest I've flown in you can usually see several beacons around you if you look.
 
cowman said:
I actually find some aspects of night flying to be easier than day. The air tends to be smoother, skies around here tend to clear up later at night, and I think it's easier to find airports at night, all you have to do is look in the right general direction until you see the beacon. Most places here in the midwest I've flown in you can usually see several beacons around you if you look.
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Agree totally!
 
cowman said:
I actually find some aspects of night flying to be easier than day. The air tends to be smoother, skies around here tend to clear up later at night, and I think it's easier to find airports at night, all you have to do is look in the right general direction until you see the beacon. Most places here in the midwest I've flown in you can usually see several beacons around you if you look.
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It's a LOT easier to spot traffic.

Not all airports have beacons. Spotting one, especially in the city, can be difficult. Especially KRHV. The street next to it is so much brighter than the runway lights, that the chart supplement has a warning not to line up on it.
 
MAKG1 said:
. Especially KRHV. The street next to it is so much brighter than the runway lights, that the chart supplement has a warning not to line up on it.
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My instructor taught me to look for the dark area to find the airport. In my experience it works more often than not.

I also like looking for all the beacons when riding on a commercial airliner at night. You'd be surprised how many beacons there are and how easy they are to find from >30,000 ft.
 
skier said:
My instructor taught me to look for the dark area to find the airport. In my experience it works more often than not.

I also like looking for all the beacons when riding on a commercial airliner at night. You'd be surprised how many beacons there are and how easy they are to find from >30,000 ft.
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Dark spots can also be lakes and mountains.
 
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