Please help - Do I have to disclose a sealed record?

R

Richard23

Guest
Hello everyone,

I have a class c felony in Washington state (lowest felony - "possession of non prescription drug" - convicted 2010 and finished probation 2012 - clean record since. I was 20, now 27).

I was in the process of sealing that record. Do I have to disclose this once sealed on medical examinations? - employment applications? or will the TSA see it regardless? If no one knows is there a lawyer or someone I can pay to find out?

I really wanted to be a pilot after leaving my last job on good terms to start something new. I had the flight school picked out and was ready to spend the money to go from zero to regional pilot but then i happened to read that a felony may make this dream pointless. This is hitting me where it hurts - please help
 
The questions rarely ask "If we look, will we find an arrest/conviction?" The questions usually ask "Have you ever been arrested/convicted?" Even with your record "sealed," what's the honest answer to that question?
 
Stop,posting under your name and contact an aviation lawyer. There are couple on this website. Perhaps they will respond privately.
 
Dr. Bruce posted the attached file in the Arson thread. It shows the items the TSA say are disqualifying.

From my limited understanding, if you have kept clean since your conviction in 2010, you have have another 3 years to go before you can apply.

But between now and then, you can still participate in aviation activities, such as attending ground schools and seminars, participating with the local EAA Chapters, reading books, learning the basics of small airplane repair, and keeping pilot friend company in the right seat as you guys do flights for burgers, pancakes, and charity flight missions.

In other words, there is still plenty to do to add to the knowledge end of the spectrum. But you must wait a bit more before you can get moving on the practical end.
 

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Richard23 said:
Hello everyone,

I have a class c felony in Washington state (lowest felony - "possession of non prescription drug" - convicted 2010 and finished probation 2012 - clean record since. I was 20, now 27).
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When it comes to "sealed" criminal records there is no such thing as sealed for law enforcement. The FAAs background check could still turn it up.
 
Richard23 said:
I had the flight school picked out and was ready to spend the money to go from zero to regional pilot
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Re-read the original post and this caught my eye....

Be sure to do appropriate due diligence on utilizing pilot mills like this.... Some are okay, others are very shady.

Also, be wary on the financial aspect. If you do succeed in obtaining an interview and are hired on with a regional, but incur a very large debt to get there, it will take a very long time before you have repaid that debt. And be prepared to deal with the debt with a financially viable fallback job if something goes pear shaped and you do not get the big flying job.
 
Sealing a record is controlled by state law. Those laws usually say you may exclude the conviction on any matter and Washington law says that. Your criminal record within Washington may disappear, but the conviction recorded with the FBI will not. The FBI record is not official. A govt agency wishing to view the official court record, which in Washington the court maintains, would have to move for a hearing a show a cause allowed under the state's law for the record to be unsealed. The court would deny that motion based on state law because basically the court pardoned you based on your good behavor.

Yes, you need to talk to an attorney for legal advice before you proceed.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Dr. Bruce posted the attached file in the Arson thread. It shows the items the TSA say are disqualifying.

From my limited understanding, if you have kept clean since your conviction in 2010, you have have another 3 years to go before you can apply.

But between now and then, you can still participate in aviation activities, such as attending ground schools and seminars, participating with the local EAA Chapters, reading books, learning the basics of small airplane repair, and keeping pilot friend company in the right seat as you guys do flights for burgers, pancakes, and charity flight missions.

In other words, there is still plenty to do to add to the knowledge end of the spectrum. But you must wait a bit more before you can get moving on the practical end.
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Which of those offenses applies?
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, you need to talk to an attorney for legal advice before you proceed.
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I think this advice is pase. If someone's willing to make a life-altering decision regarding legal rights, health, or career based on advice from SGOTI instead of a qualified professional, I think we should let them.
 
Lindberg said:
I think this advice is pase. If someone's willing to make a life-altering decision regarding legal rights, health, or career based on advice from SGOTI instead of a qualified professional, I think we should let them.
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The advices is still good. People will, for various reasons, ask SGOTI. It is solid advice to say, "Don't."
 
murphey said:
Stop,posting under your name and contact an aviation lawyer. There are couple on this website. Perhaps they will respond privately.
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My end goal is to talk to an attorney but I wasn't sure what kind of attorney, (employment attorney, aviation attorney, defense attorney, etc... because the situation sort of falls under all of them. Also thank you all for your help.

If anyone could point me in the direction of a good lawyer to talk to about this I would appreciate that.
 
Reply said:
My end goal is to talk to an attorney but I wasn't sure what kind of attorney, (employment attorney, aviation attorney, defense attorney, etc... because the situation sort of falls under all of them. Also thank you all for your help.

If anyone could point me in the direction of a good lawyer to talk to about this I would appreciate that.
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I would suggest talking with Dr. Bruce Chien. He has a really good network of referrals for various situations.

Just be 100% honest and cheerful with him. www.aeromedicaldoc.com
 
AggieMike88 said:
I would suggest talking with Dr. Bruce Chien. He has a really good network of referrals for various situations.

Just be 100% honest and cheerful with him. www.aeromedicaldoc.com
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I appreciate you helping me and your advice (and everyone elses!!!). I'll get in contact with him and see what can be done. I look forward to seeing everyone here in the skies one day.
 
Reply said:
My end goal is to talk to an attorney but I wasn't sure what kind of attorney, (employment attorney, aviation attorney, defense attorney, etc... because the situation sort of falls under all of them. Also thank you all for your help.

If anyone could point me in the direction of a good lawyer to talk to about this I would appreciate that.
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I would suggest a criminal attorney in your state, followed by one familiar with FAA regs. If you can find one who's familiar with both, so much the better. Your state bar should have a referral service. FAA knowledge will be the limiting factor, so you might start with that.

I'm sure that Bruce Chien is an excellent doctor, but I wouldn't ask the best lawyer I know for medical advice.
 
Lindberg said:
I would suggest a criminal attorney in your state, followed by one familiar with FAA regs. If you can find one who's familiar with both, so much the better. Your state bar should have a referral service. FAA knowledge will be the limiting factor, so you might start with that.

I'm sure that Bruce Chien is an excellent doctor, but I wouldn't ask the best lawyer I know for medical advice.
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I think the recommendation was to ask Bruce for a referral to a good lawyer with knowledge about aviation medical issues. Given that he's one of the most knowledgeable AMEs in the country, I think this is an appropriate query.
 
Lindberg said:
I would suggest a criminal attorney in your state, followed by one familiar with FAA regs. If you can find one who's familiar with both, so much the better.

I'm sure that Bruce Chien is an excellent doctor, but I wouldn't ask the best lawyer I know for medical advice.
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Since the OP is attempting to determine his position vis-a-vis FAA medical issuance regulations, obtaining a pilot certificate, and his potential inability to do so, I would say consulting an attorney specializing in these particular aviation matters would be much more productive than contacting a criminal defense attorney.

The chances are excellent the criminal attorney would have no relevant knowledge whatsoever in how to resolve the OP's problem.

Since the OP is looking for a referral, and Dr. Chien is intimately involved in assisting would be pilots caught at the intersection of medical and legal issues, I think he would he an excellent first contact.
 
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3393RP said:
Since the OP is attempting to determine his position vis-a-vis FAA medical issuance regulations, obtaining a pilot certificate, and his potential inability to do so, I would say consulting an attorney specializing in these particular aviation matters would be much more productive than contacting a criminal defense attorney.

The chances are excellent the criminal attorney would have no relevant knowledge whatsoever in how to resolve the OP's problem.

Since the OP is looking for a referral, and Dr. Chien is intimately involved in assisting would be pilots caught at the intersection of medical and legal issues, I think he would he an excellent first contact.
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He probably needs both. One who understand the state expunction laws, the other who understands the FAA and NTSB position(s) on the issue. It may not require two lawyers, but it does require both knowledge sets.

There has, for example, been more than one enforcement action for falsification involving claims that a record had been expunged when, in fact, it had not.
 
Lindberg said:
I think this advice is pase. If someone's willing to make a life-altering decision regarding legal rights, health, or career based on advice from SGOTI instead of a qualified professional, I think we should let them.
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Never heard that one before. I like it.
 
Everybody - do yourself a favor and check out your FBI record- its what the FAA uses. I don't think they bother going to West Bumcheese county in Idaho to see if you were arrested for drunk and disorderly in 1974.

Do you have a reported arrest? Then you need to report if you are asked have you ever been arrested. If you do not have a reported arrest - have you ever heard the expression .. . . "If its not written down it did not happen?"

End of story.
 
Lachlan said:
Unfortunately, there are far too many Richards in the world.
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:thumbsup:

Not only that, but I have found that there is usually at least one other Richard Palm in any metropolitan area that I've lived in.
 
comanchepilot said:
Everybody - do yourself a favor and check out your FBI record- its what the FAA uses. I don't think they bother going to West Bumcheese county in Idaho to see if you were arrested for drunk and disorderly in 1974.

Do you have a reported arrest? Then you need to report if you are asked have you ever been arrested. If you do not have a reported arrest - have you ever heard the expression .. . . "If its not written down it did not happen?"

End of story.
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When does the FAA do this? To do a complete criminal history records check requires sending fingerprints to the FBI.
All 121 carriers and at least some 135 operators do this for every pilot.... but it's not part of the medical.
 
Richard23 said:
Hello everyone,

I have a class c felony in Washington state (lowest felony - "possession of non prescription drug" - convicted 2010 and finished probation 2012 - clean record since. I was 20, now 27).

I was in the process of sealing that record. Do I have to disclose this once sealed on medical examinations? - employment applications? or will the TSA see it regardless? If no one knows is there a lawyer or someone I can pay to find out?

I really wanted to be a pilot after leaving my last job on good terms to start something new. I had the flight school picked out and was ready to spend the money to go from zero to regional pilot but then i happened to read that a felony may make this dream pointless. This is hitting me where it hurts - please help
Click to expand...


The Feds WILL see it. As I've heard someone else explain... 24 hours after your local arrest, the state has it in their system. 24 hours after that, the feds have the record of the arrest in the system.

Sealing something at the state level does nothing to require the feds to delete their record. It will always be there to them.

So.. with regards to what... you might be able to hide such a sealed record from a private employer, but likely not from a state licensing board, and most certainly not from a federal background check.

What are your options? Well... as others have mentioned, Dr Chien is one option. He has much expertise in this arena, and if it CAN be done, he knows how to get it done. What is most important is that in the past 7 years you have been a model citizen with no further arrests and no sign of addictions or illicit drug use. Find out what your options are before you spend any further funds on this dream...
 
Kritchlow said:
When does the FAA do this? To do a complete criminal history records check requires sending fingerprints to the FBI.
All 121 carriers and at least some 135 operators do this for every pilot.... but it's not part of the medical.
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You are correct. A private company or person must submit finger prints. Any law enforcement agency may run a criminal history check without finger prints. The FAA itself is not a law enforcement agency, but if they got a complaint that some one with a drug conviction history was a pilot and lied on a medical, they would refer the investigation to the FBI.
 
Kritchlow said:
When does the FAA do this? To do a complete criminal history records check requires sending fingerprints to the FBI.
All 121 carriers and at least some 135 operators do this for every pilot.... but it's not part of the medical.
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you consent to it as part of signing the medical -
 
comanchepilot said:
you consent to it as part of signing the medical -
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Where did n the form does the it say the FAA has consent to do a criminal history check?
A CCH and a Driving record check are not the same thing - although many states have an automatic suspension for a drug conviction that will appear on the DR.
 
Clip4 said:
Where did n the form does the it say the FAA has consent to do a criminal history check?
A CCH and a Driving record check are not the same thing - although many states have an automatic suspension for a drug conviction that will appear on the DR.
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Why would the federal government need your permission to look at the federal government's files when you voluntarily apply for something from the federal government?
 
Doggtyred said:
Why would the federal government need your permission to look at the federal government's files when you voluntarily apply for something from the federal government?
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I don't agree, but it still doesn't explain no fingerprints.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don't agree, but it still doesn't explain no fingerprints.
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I don't need much more than a name, date of birth, and current address to do a full background search on someone. Criminal conviction records, most of which are public, are the easy ones. I don't even need consent or a "legitimate purpose" for those.
 
Doggtyred said:
Why would the federal government need your permission to look at the federal government's files when you voluntarily apply for something from the federal government?
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Because the FAA under the law does not have access to the files. That is why they need your signature to access the nation drivers record data base.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't need much more than a name, date of birth, and current address to do a full background search on someone. Criminal conviction records, most of which are public, are the easy ones. I don't even need consent or a "legitimate purpose" for those.
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The search you are doing is from services that glean data from court records that are online. Not all courts have online records, so all misdemeanor convictions may not be included in your search.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't need much more than a name, date of birth, and current address to do a full background search on someone. Criminal conviction records, most of which are public, are the easy ones. I don't even need consent or a "legitimate purpose" for those.
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I'm sure you're correct, but I'm also sure you know that a formal CHRC requires sending prints to the FBI. Why is that as compared to running the background check you descibe?
There must be something more to it.
 
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