Sat in a few planes today

Rykymus

Rykymus

Line Up and Wait
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Rykymus
My wife and I went to Aircraft Expo at KPAO today. Sat inside a Mooney Acclaim, a new Cirrus, a Piper M600, and an Epic. (Didn't bother with the PC-12, as I could never afford it, and I passed on the TBM because I didn't feel like putting 'booties' on.)

First, I'm a big guy. 6' and 250#. Wife is more like 5'6" and 130#. I've lost a lot of weight, but I doubt I'll get down past 220#.

Mooney was nice, but a little cramped. Same with the Cirrus. It looks big, like it would be roomy, but it really doesn't feel that much roomier. You do have more space between you and your copilot, but you're still shoulder-against-the-wall like in my Archer. The Piper M600 was very cramped. I didn't even try to get into the pilot's seat for fear that I'd never get out! Even my wife felt claustrophobia in that cabin. Shame, cuz I've always loved that airframe.

The most comfortable plane was the Epic e1000. It wasn't overtly roomy, but it had room in all the right places. There was plenty of leg room in the club seating area, and it was not difficult at all to slide up front and take the pilot's seat. And even that was quite comfortable. A very impressive aircraft.

Of course, I doubt I'll be buying one anytime soon. But for the first time, my wife said "We're fine with our little plane." So that's a plus. Still, I'll probably step up to a Toga in a few years.

Still a little heartbroken that the M600 was SO cramped. I'm sure I could have figured out how to sit in it, but who wants to squeeze their way out of the cockpit after several hours in the air?
 
I'm a Mooney pilot, I'm your size. It's not bad when your co pilot keeps their seat back and you stagger. But it's not huge... but is fast.

Saratoga is the comfort move. Will see how big my kids get :p




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All I have ever owned is Pipers - from a 1961 Cherokee 160 through a series of other Cherokee derivatives including an Arrow, and now an Aztec. I am 6'4" and about 240 lbs.

Some people here have commented that they find some of the Pipers small. The back seats on the short body Cherokees, sure. But I have never felt cramped or short of leg room in the left front seat in any of them (especially the Aztec, which is cavernous), and none of them are as difficult to ingress/egress as the Malibu lineup. Feel the same way as you do about it, as the Malibu would have been the perfect next plane for me stepping up from the Aztec.
 
I hear the Epic is awesome. Is it an experimental still or is it certified?
 
jordane93 said:
I hear the Epic is awesome. Is it an experimental still or is it certified?
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Epic is still working through the certification process. Last I heard it is pretty close, so maybe this year.
 
had to look up the epic. is that right, 3 mill? sheeeit, get urself a toga and use the rest for a bazillion gallons of avgas.
 
GRG55 said:
Epic is still working through the certification process. Last I heard it is pretty close, so maybe this year.
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Interesting. One of our Cirrus owner is raving about it. He's debating whether to purchase an Epic, PC12 or Vision Jet
 
The Epic is $3m. The PC12 is $5m. The SF50 is $1.9m.
 
jordane93 said:
Interesting. One of our Cirrus owner is raving about it. He's debating whether to purchase an Epic, PC12 or Vision Jet
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Nice dilemma to have ;)

They are all quite a bit different size airplanes from one another, with the Pilatus carrying up to 9 passengers and a gross take-off weight 75% more than the Cirrus jet. The Epic is the hot rod of the bunch though, if you really want to get up high and go fast.
 
Epic would be my pick


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I tell ya, that Epic was nice...every square inch of it. Every seat was comfy. If I had 3 mil laying around...
 
Always thought the PA24 was like a tardis, lots larger inside :)

Of course no self respecting pilot would buy a trike.
 
Other considerations include the SF50 can be flown under BasicMed the other two require 3rd class or better. The annuals get into the $20k a year range for single engine. The Epic 1000 and SF50 burn approx 60gph @ $4.50 = $270.
 
No one will fly a SF50 under basic med. you are restricted to under 18k feet and 250kts.


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gsengle said:
No one will fly a SF50 under basic med. you are restricted to under 18k feet and 250kts.
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Sure they will. If you have $2m or more tied up in a plane and you can't get a 3rd class anymore you will simply fly just below FL180 and cruise at 250kts or less. The SR22T has a 25k ceiling but many don't fly them in the flight levels now.
 
citizen5000 said:
Sure they will. If you have $2m or more tied up in a plane and you can't get a 3rd class anymore you will simply fly just below FL180 and cruise at 250kts or less. The SR22T has a 25k ceiling but many don't fly them in the flight levels now.
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It would be a heck of a way to waste money like that. I wouldn't even fly a turboprop under Basic Med
 
Rykymus said:
My wife and I went to Aircraft Expo at KPAO today. Sat inside a Mooney Acclaim, a new Cirrus, a Piper M600, and an Epic. (Didn't bother with the PC-12, as I could never afford it, and I passed on the TBM because I didn't feel like putting 'booties' on.)

First, I'm a big guy. 6' and 250#. Wife is more like 5'6" and 130#. I've lost a lot of weight, but I doubt I'll get down past 220#.

Mooney was nice, but a little cramped. Same with the Cirrus. It looks big, like it would be roomy, but it really doesn't feel that much roomier. You do have more space between you and your copilot, but you're still shoulder-against-the-wall like in my Archer. The Piper M600 was very cramped. I didn't even try to get into the pilot's seat for fear that I'd never get out! Even my wife felt claustrophobia in that cabin. Shame, cuz I've always loved that airframe.

The most comfortable plane was the Epic e1000. It wasn't overtly roomy, but it had room in all the right places. There was plenty of leg room in the club seating area, and it was not difficult at all to slide up front and take the pilot's seat. And even that was quite comfortable. A very impressive aircraft.

Of course, I doubt I'll be buying one anytime soon. But for the first time, my wife said "We're fine with our little plane." So that's a plus. Still, I'll probably step up to a Toga in a few years.

Still a little heartbroken that the M600 was SO cramped. I'm sure I could have figured out how to sit in it, but who wants to squeeze their way out of the cockpit after several hours in the air?
Click to expand...

I can totally relate!

I'm 6'1 240.

I got in a Piper M600 at Sun and Fun and I was surprised at how cramped it was. I was determined to get into the left seat and I was surprised to find out that getting in and out is tough but once you are in the left seat it's not so bad. Everything is where it needs to be so it's not comfortable but you can fly it for a few hours. You don't want to get TOO comfortable in the seats anyway....ZZzZz :)
My wife is the same height and weight and she gets in and out without any issues....lucky for her.

From what I remember Mooney's were a lot better to get in and out of course the double doors help a lot.

What is your mission? If you purchased an airplane what would you use it for?

For me the Epic is a nice looking airplane but for that price range I want to carry at least 7 people and have a bathroom so Epic would be out. (The more people you carry the more someone is going to want to use the bathroom....ESPECIALLY if you are taking kids up. Parent: "Do you have to use the bathroom?" Kid: "No" (In the sky at 5,000 feet or more...depending on the kid) Kid: "I have to use the bathroom" Parent: "I thought you said you didn't have to?" Kid: " I didn't until you asked me on the ground" :)

Piper 6 is pretty good too, Have you tried to get into a Bonanza?
 
jordane93 said:
It would be a heck of a way to waste money like that. I wouldn't even fly a turboprop under Basic Med
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Went to a BasicMed FAA presentation a couple of days ago. Standing room only. About 200 in there and a quick polling of the attendees showed over half were over 70. Many of them twin and turboprop owners. BasicMed will allow these guys to continue to fly their planes too.

Cirrus was kind of genius IMHO to keep the SF50 at 6,000. BasicMed just proved why.
 
Almost no one will buy a SF50 if they are stuck with basic med. that airplane wants to go above 18 and go faster than 250 for sure.


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So what's the difference between basic med and a class III medical?
 
citizen5000 said:
Went to a BasicMed FAA presentation a couple of days ago. Standing room only. About 200 in there and a quick polling of the attendees showed over half were over 70. Many of them twin and turboprop owners. BasicMed will allow these guys to continue to fly their planes too.

Cirrus was kind of genius IMHO to keep the SF50 at 6,000. BasicMed just proved why.
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Depends on whether or not the doc passes them. Jury out on what insurance companies will do with 70+ on BM.

AKBill said:
So what's the difference between basic med and a class III medical?
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Been in hibernation up there in AK, Bill? ;)
 
AKBill said:
So what's the difference between basic med and a class III medical?
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Can't fly anything over 6000lbs over 250kts over 6 seats over 18k ft basically


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I am making a simple point.

A majority of the GA pilots are over 50. A large number over 70. The customer for the SF50 will be middle aged to older. They may buy the plane with a current 3rd class medical or already be on BasicMed but they may soon be unable to pass the 3rd class medical and will still be able to fly under BasicMed.

The major restriction being the MTOW weight limit. A Cirrus SR22T has a ceiling of FL250 and a MTOW of 3600 lbs as do many other turbo-charged piston singles (like the Mooney Acclaim). Pilots will be able to buy and fly the SR22T under BasicMed just as they will be able to fly pressurized aircraft like the 6000 lb SF50 as long as they do not exceed 250KIAS or fly above FL180. Same applies to the Evolution, the Piper M500 and M600 etc.
 
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citizen5000 said:
...Pilots will be able to buy and fly the SR22T under BasicMed just as they will be able to fly pressurized aircraft like the 6000 lb SF50 as long as they do not exceed 250ktas or fly above FL180. Same applies to the Evolution, the Piper M500 and M600 etc.
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That would be like having a 50 mph max speed governor on your Bentley Continental...
 
GRG55 said:
That would be like having a 50 mph max speed governor on your Bentley Continental...
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Just found out the speed limit is 250KIAS not KTAS. At least according to the FAA presentation handout on BasicMed hosted by the AOPA.
 
paflyer said:
Depends on whether or not the doc passes them. Jury out on what insurance companies will do with 70+ on BM.
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I wonder how many 70+ would pass on insurance if they can afford an SF50? If they can afford the airplane and the rest of their assets are protected.
 
citizen5000 said:
I am making a simple point.

A majority of the GA pilots are over 50. A large number over 70. The customer for the SF50 will be middle aged to older. They may buy the plane with a current 3rd class medical or already be on BasicMed but they may soon be unable to pass the 3rd class medical and will still be able to fly under BasicMed.

The major restriction being the MTOW weight limit. A Cirrus SR22T has a ceiling of FL250 and a MTOW of 3600 lbs as do many other turbo-charged piston singles (like the Mooney Acclaim). Pilots will be able to buy and fly the SR22T under BasicMed just as they will be able to fly pressurized aircraft like the 6000 lb SF50 as long as they do not exceed 250KIAS or fly above FL180. Same applies to the Evolution, the Piper M500 and M600 etc.
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From where are you getting your statistics?
 
The CFI who did my transition training in the Matrix was 6'7", 280. No joke. He fit in the copilot seat but I am not sure how he did it.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Post 62 182's are massive. They widened them 4"
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yeah...to a whopping 42" LOL. No wider than a Cherokee. Perception is reality. Mooneys are wider than a 182 at the elbow, horrible rest of their ergonomics notwithstanding. The headroom on the 182 series is decent and what gives people the impression of more room, as is the backseat. the seating is even more upright than even the Piper offering, which adds to the perception of space by having more "floor room" due to the lack of spar hump.

The Cardinal interior is outstanding at 48 inches, as is the ingress and egress. Cessna leads the pack on that front.

By no means I'm saying a 182 is cramped, but wide a 182 is not, even by smaller airplane standards. Hell, even the 206/210 series at 43" (front seats, lower window line) require stagger seating, which is a joke considering it's an airplane for Cherokee six type mission. The PA32[R]/34 is the granddaddy at 49" across and loading dock double door in the back. If you're not sporting at least 45 inches at the elbows, you're not in the roomy airplane class for fat American standards.
 
hindsight2020 said:
yeah...to a whopping 42" LOL. No wider than a Cherokee. Perception is reality. Mooneys are wider than a 182 at the elbow, horrible rest of their ergonomics notwithstanding. The headroom on the 182 series is decent and what gives people the impression of more room, as is the backseat. the seating is even more upright than even the Piper offering, which adds to the perception of space by having more "floor room" due to the lack of spar hump.

The Cardinal interior is outstanding at 48 inches, as is the ingress and egress. Cessna leads the pack on that front.

By no means I'm saying a 182 is cramped, but wide a 182 is not, even by smaller airplane standards. Hell, even the 206/210 series at 43" (front seats, lower window line) require stagger seating, which is a joke considering it's an airplane for Cherokee six type mission. The PA32[R]/34 is the granddaddy at 49" across and loading dock double door in the back. If you're not sporting at least 45 inches at the elbows, you're not in the roomy airplane class for fat American standards.
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I was being sarcastic :biggrin: They are way better than a 172, though, and are stupid fun with the 285/300hp engine.
 
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