Choosing a CFI... old guy/gal or young guy/gal?

azblackbird

azblackbird

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azblackbird
Who do you prefer to learn from... somebody older or younger than you?

What were your actual experiences with either/or when taking your initial PPL instruction?

Just curious...
 
Well, I had an extremely unpleasant experience recently. Hired a flight instructor without meeting them, they show up and are 100 years old with dual hearing aids. Has trouble hearing ATC, and won't shut up long enough for me to reply. Would interrupt to answer the question he thought I was about to ask, and got it wrong nearly every time. I could go on....

I think I've always done best when my instructor was about my age or a -little- older. YMMV.
 
Mine was younger and one of my best friends. Worked out pretty well. It was a trade off, I taught him how to be a controller and he taught me how to be a pilot.
 
Age and gender didn't matter to me. The ability to instruct me well and to make sure I followed instruction and focused on the flight at hand did. My CFI was about 15 years older than I and barked instructions as was required. I learned a great deal from him.
 
The most enjoyable guys to fly with tended to be older and had, "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" type of guys. They're the ones who were pretty good at giving someone a "leash" that was just long enough while providing a relaxed atmosphere to work within.
 
Slightly different experience here. My primary CFI was a young guy, I was his first zero time student. I'm guessing he was 25 or so (I was in my low 40's). He was squared away, and had the "knack" of teaching...at least with me. I think his only unsure moment was signing off to solo...he was more nervous than I was. After my checkride, the DPE made a note of his name....felt I was well prepared and was surprised I only had 1 CFI. Goes to show its the INDIVIDUAL, not the age that makes the difference.
I lost touch with him years ago....last I heard he was flying for a regional.....

I will say that I've had some great flight reviews with some much MUCH older guys. Learned a lot every time
 
As a CAP pilot, I fly with a lot of different instructors.

You might as well ask what color their hair should be. Age doesn't matter.

Their goals do. I find part timers work nicely, as I know they aren't headed to SkyWest as soon as they hit the hour minimum. So do long-term full timers.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
The most enjoyable guys to fly with tended to be older and had, "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" type of guys. They're the ones who were pretty good at giving someone a "leash" that was just long enough while providing a relaxed atmosphere to work within.
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I hear ya loud and clear... what little (logable) instruction I received over 30 years ago, was from a couple CFI rated Ag pilots who at the time were in their 60's or 70's. I was in my early 20's and just thought all flight instructors were old Ag pilots. I didn't know any different. Both were very cool guys, and were very laid back concerning teaching/showing me what I needed to know to fly an airplane. However, most of my real flying experience was with a buddy from the oil field (who was also older) who taught me to fly his airplanes whenever he was transporting us back and forth from our various job locations.

Currently I'm a 55 yr. old internet geek who contracts out a lot of my work to those that are many years younger than me. We all get along great and we communicate just fine as I'm pretty good at speaking their language. When it comes to learning things from each other, there's a lot of things they teach me, and a lot of things I teach them, so it all works out in the end.

I guess for me it really doesn't matter whether male/female or old/young as long as they can commit to my schedule and we’re compatible in the cockpit. ;)
 
My CFI was probably 15 years younger (I started late), but he'd been a regional already, and wasn't chasing the majors. I learned far more from him than most of my pilot buddies did in their primary training.
 
Doesn't matter.

It's all about

1 how well you mesh
2 their teaching ability
3 their experience / skill


If you're looking for a way to thin the heard a little without interviewing anyone, I'd start with a ATP/Gold Seal CFI. This means they've trained a few folks with at least a 80% first time pass, went a little out of their way to get a ground instructor too and visit a FSDO, the ATP means they have the hours to be else where, so they arnt just building hours by instructing and probably are in it to teach and are less likely to just disappear when the lowest bidder airline offers them a job.
 
Mine is a 16,000-hour ATP who has flown everything from J3 cubs to Embraer regional jets. He is about 75 years old and we mesh really well.
 
James331 said:
If you're looking for a way to thin the heard a little without interviewing anyone, I'd start with a ATP/Gold Seal CFI. This means they've trained a few folks with at least a 80% first time pass, went a little out of their way to get a ground instructor too and visit a FSDO, the ATP means they have the hours to be else where, so they arnt just building hours by instructing and probably are in it to teach and are less likely to just disappear when the lowest bidder airline offers them a job.
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Actually a couple of the CFI's I have picked are "Gold Seal" approved. I also like their ground school prep for the written. Although I can't find where they do any instrument training. I'll probably end up going with Gleim for the instrument training.
 
James331 said:
Doesn't matter.

It's all about

1 how well you mesh
2 their teaching ability
3 their experience / skill
Click to expand...

Agree.

James331 said:
If you're looking for a way to thin the heard a little without interviewing anyone, I'd start with a ATP/Gold Seal CFI. This means they've trained a few folks with at least a 80% first time pass, went a little out of their way to get a ground instructor too and visit a FSDO, the ATP means they have the hours to be else where
Click to expand...

You keep parroting that line like a broken record, and I am going to disagree AGAIN. One of the worst (if not the worst) instructors in the area is an ATP/Gold Seal. Means nothing. Has had students wreck airplanes during their first solos.
 
dmspilot said:
You keep parroting that line like a broken record, and I am going to disagree AGAIN. One of the worst (if not the worst) instructors in the area is an ATP/Gold Seal. Means nothing. Has had students wreck airplanes during their first solos.
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So what's your beef with "Gold Seal" approved? Aren't you kinda painting with a broad brush? I suppose there's a bad apple in every bunch of instructors, whether Gold Seal approved or not. Wouldn't you agree?
 
azblackbird said:
Actually a couple of the CFI's I have picked are "Gold Seal" approved. I also like their ground school prep for the written. Although I can't find where they do any instrument training. I'll probably end up going with Gleim for the instrument training.
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The gold seal program is diffrent than being a FAA gold seal instructor.




dmspilot said:
Agree.



You keep parroting that line like a broken record, and I am going to disagree AGAIN. One of the worst (if not the worst) instructors in the area is an ATP/Gold Seal. Means nothing. Has had students wreck airplanes during their first solos.
Click to expand...

Must have taken quite a fleet of planes to get that 80% first time pass ratio if that was the case lol


But it's really the easiest least BS way to filter, sorry if it offends anyone, but as a student who doesn't know any better it's really hard to know if some guy is a greenhorn or completely inactive CFI, or if they have a track record. At least that little gold circle tells ya, without doing detective work, that at least 10 folks were trained and at least 80% passed their ride on the first attempt.


Per the FAA

"
CHAPTER 2 TITLE 14 CFR PART 61 CERTIFICATION OF PILOTS AND FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS

Section 13 Issue a Gold Seal Flight Instructor Certificate

5-566 PROGRAM TRACKING AND REPORTING SUBSYSTEM (PTRS) ACTIVITY CODE. 1528 (as appropriate, for renewal, reinstatement, or added rating, or upon application).

5-567 OBJECTIVE. This task determines if an applicant is eligible for a gold seal flight instructor certificate. Successful completion of this task results in the issuance of a temporary airman certificate for a gold seal flight instructor or the denial of a gold seal flight instructor certificate.

5-568 GENERAL.
A. Purpose of Gold Seal Flight Instructor Certificate. Flight instructor certificates with distinctive gold seals are issued to instructors who currently meet certain qualifications. These certificates are intended to identify those instructors who have high personal qualifications and good records as active flight instructors. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) hopes to issue as many gold seal certificates as possible to provide an incentive for flight instructors to improve their qualifications.
B. Renewal and Eligibility. The holder of a gold seal flight instructor certificate who applies for renewal does not need to reestablish his/her eligibility for a gold seal.
C. Issuance. If the applicant meets the criteria stated in subparagraph 5-571E3), the aviation safety inspector (ASI) may add a gold seal to the instructor’s certificate upon renewal or reinstatement, when adding an additional rating, or upon initial application."
 
azblackbird said:
So what's your beef with "Gold Seal" approved? Aren't you kinda painting with a broad brush? I suppose there's a bad apple in every bunch of instructors, whether Gold Seal approved or not. Wouldn't you agree?
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Well, yes and no. I don't have any "beef" with instructors with a gold seal. My beef is with the assertion that it is somehow a measure of quality. I just do not think it has anything more than token value.

There is a training business with "Gold Seal" in the name, which is what I think when you say "Gold Seal Approved". It is in no way related to what James and I are talking about.
 
Age doesn't matter. I was 21 when I got my CFI and had students that were older and younger than me. My first CFI was in his 50s and the second one was a few years older than me.
 
For primary training instructor age/experience may not be the most important things. Everything is fresh for the new CFI and the fundamentals just aren't that complicated in our little spam cans. Maybe the experienced guy can transfer knowledge quicker maybe not. Good interaction in student/teacher relationship is probably more important. Student must be receptive and teacher usually should work in a structured/planned way to build student's knowledge and ability at the correct rate for the individual.

The nature of individual training is the intriguing part of and what tempts me to try instructing. When teaching in a classroom it was a race to get the student group through the material in the allotted time. With an individual the focus would be more on moving as fast as the student was capable.
 
I am in the "it doesn't matter" group when it comes to age and experience, I have met terrible old instructors and wonderful young ones.

The primary goal at this stage is the accumulation of basic skills and knowledge. The scenario based decision making and risk management components are pretty rudimentary and, even if the local training environment has some features posing special risk factors (i.e., high mountain terrain, extensive swamps, large bodies of water, weird weather), what sounds unique and special to a stranger will be old hat to a local instructor.

A brand new, wet behind the ears CFI has already passed 4 FAA checkrides. If she can teach you to fly only as well as she does, you will be way ahead of the game.

There are far more important compatibility issues when choosing a primary flight instructor than whether they have grey hair, or none at all.
 
I've had both younger and older CFIs that Iike, but as a sweeping generalization I've tended to mesh better with the younger ones.
 
I've had 9 instructors so far. I do not believe age has much to do with it, but why they are instructing, what their personality is, and how they communicate.

My top two favorite/preferred instructors are very far apart from each other...

1) Guy around 70 years old. Civil Air Patrol Captain and Check Ride pilot, CFI. Tons of hours, been flying forever, knows more than I can imagine, doesn't need the money just likes to instruct. I love that not only does he know tons of stuff, every time he explains something it's very practical with a good, concise "why" component. So instead of "Do it this way" I get "You can do that if you want, but usually I do it like this, because...". Or "Do you want me to tell you why I don't like doing it like that?" It's great, refreshing, and probably one of the best ways I've found to remember a lot of important stuff.

2) Guy a lot closer to my age. Mid 30's. Instructed, went and did commercial at a young age, but came back and started a flight school because he likes it. Very easy to get along with, very practical, always willing to help, not pushy, and really wants to teach people to fly. He was the first instructor that actually said "Wait...no other instructor has taken you to a different field yet? That's BS. Nobody gets their PL because they want to stay at their airport. Let's go."
 
Age has nothing to do with it. It is all in their demeanor and temperament. A good instructor has knowledge, communication and awareness of their trainee. Everybody learns differently. They should be able to recognize and adapt their students accordingly. They should be able to see when their student gets a bit cocky and use a good dose of humility to bring them back down to an appropriate place. See when they are stuffing and find a way to fix that issue. Most of all they should be willing to do the work necessary to keep their students moving forward.
 
James331 said:
Doesn't matter.

It's all about

1 how well you mesh
2 their teaching ability
3 their experience / skill
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This. Age doesn't matter, find someone that fits these 3 things.
 
I think it's pretty interesting, but I guess I'm getting to know the audience around here pretty well. I "almost" called who would pick the older CFI (regardless of teaching chops) vs someone who actually knows their stuff (old or young).

I am pleased to see however, that most people don't factor age into the picture and are more concerned about ability/etc..
 
When I worked at the FBO at Lafayette, IN (LAF) I was 20, working with 6 other guys who were between 18 and 23. Our boss was a retired Navy captain who still works there. All of us except him were building time.

Combined we trained around 50 students to completion, ranging in age from 17 to 70, and had a 90% or better pass rate for primary and instrument students among four DPEs. It was a kick ass group of guys. Most of us were there 7 days a week for as many hours as we could work. I'm pretty sure that FBO is Part 141 now, thanks in part to the pass rate. I helped write portions of the TCO before I left.

Questions to ask your CFI:
(1) Pass rate
(2) Availability
(3) Average time to completion at his or her specific business
(4) Average cost to completion a time his or her specific business
 
azblackbird said:
Who do you prefer to learn from... somebody older or younger than you?
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Like most of the posters, I don't have a preference based on age. And, I cannot say that my preference is necessarily based on objective measures of experience or competence - the Instructors who appear to be comfortable and relaxed (not lackadaisical) are the ones that earn my trust, and they are the ones I prefer to fly with. Frankly, I look for personality, for better or worse. Having said that, I have noticed that there are a few Instructors (and pilots) who simply act 'old' - they seem to pontificate, and talk about the past, and don't really listen. Flying with them, irrespective of their chronological age, is almost tedious. That isn't a good fit for me.
azblackbird said:
What were your actual experiences with either/or when taking your initial PPL instruction?
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My PPL instructor was a bit younger than me - 30s vs late 40s. But he had an engaging personality, and we quickly found we were both interested in older movies. I cannot count the number of times one or the other of us used a movie quote to explain something. I also sensed immediately that he was a serious (about safety and competence) instructor, and I felt like I learned a lot. But, mainly, flying with him was FUN.

I am now doing my commercial with a woman who is probably 20 years younger than I am (getting harder to find instructors older than me :)). And, as with my PPL, and instrument, the fit is based on personality. I am pretty sure I have more hours than she does, but that doesn't make a difference. She knows what she needs to know to help me meet the training performance requirements. She also is comfortable enough to allow me to kid with her. I started flying with her last Fall, to get current again after not flying for almost 10 years. So, I was rusty - not dangerous, but not as good as I was once, and wanted to be again. Early on, we went up to do some pattern work, and landings. And, I noticed with each landing that as we were on short final, she would squirm in her seat just the tinniest bit. Hey, I get it - she didn't know whether I would melt down at the last minute or not. But, I now kid her about it when we are flying and she squirms a bit - 'Hey, we must be on final, you are starting to fidget in your seat. Don't worry, I got this!' :) We both laugh. I really like flying with her.
 
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Picking an instructor....

Back when I was instructing I had those who loved me, and those who thought I was too tough. Never really had anyone who thought I was "bad". That said, some liked me at first, than as training progressed not as much (again, thought I was too demanding).
I also had some that thought I was too stringent at first, but than grew to love my style.

The point??? You will never know until training progresses.

FWIW: I was 24 at the time. Wanted to move on but no plan whatsoever.
 
Finding the right instructor is gonna be on you to figure out. But two things that can be and I have seen with the young and old. The young guy is really just looking to build hours and get a job. So he might end up jumping ship mid way through training. The old guy depending on what you consider old can be stubborn and stuck in his ways. The old guy might not be up to date on the most recent updates in training such as the ACS, but has flying experience built up over years flying different planes and dealing with real world situations . The young guy might not much experience outside of his training, but will up to date on the most recent updates in training and regulations.

So they both have pro's and con's. You just have to find on that works for you. And most importantly that you are on the same page about everything during training. If you don't mesh with the CFI, you lose right from the beginning.
 
I will agree with what a lot of others said, it's not necessarily age but experience. I was taught by a 70 year old guy with 15,000 hours of experience over almost 50 years. Wouldn't trade it for anything. That's the kind of instructor that can teach you things that aren't in the books, that has had all kinds of experiences that he can pass what he learned or did on to you. But then he might just tell you, while signing you off for your first solo x-country and is writing the date, "Oh, April 1st, that is when I had my first engine failure 30 years ago....."
 
azblackbird said:
Who do you prefer to learn from... somebody older or younger than you?

What were your actual experiences with either/or when taking your initial PPL instruction?

Just curious...
Click to expand...

Do you take instruction well? Then your job is easy. If not, then your hunt will be harder regardless of gender, age or race.
 
TRocket said:
I will agree with what a lot of others said, it's not necessarily age but experience. I was taught by a 70 year old guy with 15,000 hours of experience over almost 50 years. Wouldn't trade it for anything. That's the kind of instructor that can teach you things that aren't in the books, that has had all kinds of experiences that he can pass what he learned or did on to you. But then he might just tell you, while signing you off for your first solo x-country and is writing the date, "Oh, April 1st, that is when I had my first engine failure 30 years ago....."
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It's not about experience either IMO.

It's about the ability to teach... And the chemistry between the two.
 
I qualified for the gold seal, but I never applied for it. It meant as much to me as a good conduct medal in the military. I worked under a captain that had every award he ever received on the wall, including his 6th grade penmanship award.

When I was a student the best instructor I had was a low timer. He was also a former school teacher. Our personalities matched, his teaching style matched my learning style. I had been through 4 or 5 instructors before him. My first instructor was an older guy that just could not stop talking about his "stellar" flying career.
 
Find one who you can work with and will stick around until you finish.... My PPL instructor worked out fine, but when I did my instrument.... One was 70+ and was too busy bitching that he did not like my plane. (he wanted to teach in a 182) The next three ran off to the airlines and just said AMF and were gone. This was very frustrating because I ended up paying for the same lessons 3-4 times.
 
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