Dog attack....what do I do?

[SkyHog]

Let me preface this by saying how much I love my dog. Really, really love that dog. He's been my best friend in times when I didn't really have any friends. He went through some rough periods with illnesses and I nursed him back to life. He was rough to furniture, but with the help of my parents, I broke him of that.

About a week ago, he had a hotdog wrapper, and my dad tried to take it from him, and he bared his teeth and bit the crap out of my dad (not a play bite for sure). My dad was cool, but he did break the skin.

A few days ago, my dad tried to take one of those stryofoam thingies that goes under hamburg away from him, and he went after him again, but my dad got away with it, and Piper missed.

Tonight, I was walking by my dog, who had a giant "Mammoth Bone" that I bought him the other day because I knew he'd love it. When I got near, he bared his teeth and I knew he was getting defensive, so I wanted to see how far he'd go. I reached down to grab the bone, and Piper lunged for my arm. He bit me a few times before I could literally beat the **** out of him to get him off. I then alpha rolled him (scared to death at this point, because he had never been this ****y before), until he calmed down.

Everytime this has happened, he's spend hours afterwards feeling really bad about his action. He sulks and looks depressed, like he KNOWS he did something wrong (this is the first time I've actually gotten physical with my dog).

My arm is bloody, I'm filled with both adrenaline and dread, because I think I know what I have to do. And I really, really don't want to do it, but I need others to tell me if there's any options besides the "Final" option. I'm actually tearing up here thinking about it.....

edit: no photos, my arm is too hairy for them to turn out well.

 

[garyb]

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com

 

[SkyHog]

Thanks for the suggestion, I'd definitely do it, but, from the site:

The Dog Whisperer will only be taking submissions from the following cities:
Los Angeles, CA; San Francisco, CA; Seattle, WA

 

[AWACSEng]

Holy crap! A seminar? Look, I love a faithful animal just as much as the next person, but something needs to be understood. Dogs and domestic animals in general know that the human is the master. When the animal oversteps the boundry and takes advantage of the human, in your case starting to bite, it is unexcusable. You may think he knows what he is doing is wrong, but that explination will not fly when you are talking to the parents of the toddler that gets too close. I'm not saying you have to commit to the "final option", but you need to consider it or put your faith in a "dog wisperer". I do not envy your plight, I've had to make this decision. Unfortunately I could not afford the therapy, so I chickened out and took her to the animal shelter. It was for my own selfishnes I did not want to be the one to make the final choice. Hope this helps and whatever you decide, you'll be o.k.

 

[Henning]

I then alpha rolled him (scared to death at this point, because he had never been this ****y before), until he calmed down.

By this, do you mean you grabbed him by the throat, holding him down and pinching off his windpipe until he submitted? If so, that's the best way I know to establish "Alpha" over your dog. I've had to get into it with one or two dogs of mine (Great Pyrenees guardian dogs on the ranch, freaked my ex wife & MIL out when I got into a fight with a big a** dog) in the past and this worked every time. One of the problems people have when they bring up dogs is they think that "Paw Up" on your leg or hand, climbing up on your lap, or whatever, is a cute friendly affectionate thing, it's not, it's a dominance thing. If this isn't countermanded early, they get the impression they are Alpha (especially if they are genetically Alphas holding their tail high) and when they get between 1 & 2, they start coming out with other Alpha behavior challenging for pack dominance in the way that canids do, with their teeth. If it's gone that far, the only cure you have is to establish your dominance in a way that a dog understands, and that is NOT beating the crap out of them, they don't understand that in this context, they aren't that smart. Watch dogs/wolves/coyotes/dingos in a pack fight and establish order. It's a throat grab. You pinch off the windpipe until they give up, then you let go, it's over, time to pet them and let them show submission. DO NOT beat or punish them after this. For continued brain washing and dominance (and pre-emptive with pupies and those not demonstrating dominance) pet them on top of the head, and stroke their throats, gently but with a definite slight pressure on the windpipe, and pet down their back pushing their tail down as you go off their back. When your dog puts it's paw up on your arm or leg or what ever, PUSH IT OFF, do not allow that, especially in a tail high dog, it's a recipe for problems.

When you want to communicate with animals, you have to first understand how they communicate with each other. There is no dog more than a few gene sequences away from a wolf, and German Sheppards are closer than most. Good luck with Piper.

 

[Henning]

Holy crap! A seminar? Look, I love a faithful animal just as much as the next person, but something needs to be understood. Dogs and domestic animals in general know that the human is the master. When the animal oversteps the boundry and takes advantage of the human, in your case starting to bite, it is unexcusable. You may think he knows what he is doing is wrong, but that explination will not fly when you are talking to the parents of the toddler that gets too close. I'm not saying you have to commit to the "final option", but you need to consider it or put your faith in a "dog wisperer". I do not envy your plight, I've had to make this decision. Unfortunately I could not afford the therapy, so I chickened out and took her to the animal shelter. It was for my own selfishnes I did not want to be the one to make the final choice. Hope this helps and whatever you decide, you'll be o.k.

That is NOT true, they KNOW no such thing, they need to be taught that, especially the genetic Alphas when it comes to dogs. Cats never will believe that, and horses, well horses you are never master, but you can get them to agree with what you want. Humans have an advantage over animals with intelligence, but that does not give us an advantage WITH animals. Thing is, if you want to communicate with animals, you have to understand how they communicate with each other, because they CAN'T understand us trying to communicate with them at our level.

One piece of advice I give people looking for a puppy/dog as a family pet who don't really understand or need the abilities of an Alpha dog is DON'T pick that cute puppy who's climbing over his/her siblings with its tail held high. This is a genetic Alpha and you (and your family) have to understand how to handle that kind of dog to maintain your Alpha status in his/her pack. There are definitly jobs you want an Alpha for and they can make fine family dogs, they just require more knowledge and effort. The best family pets, especially with small children are the Omegas, tail tucked low, last to get a nipple. They are at the bottom of the pack order, but their place is submissive and job in the pack is to initiate play.

It always amazes me how people who know nothing about animals get them.

 

[rottydaddy]

He's just being a dog. They are opportunistic by nature, and even in well-established packs, canines will challenge the leader.
Killing a dog for being a dog is an admission that you've failed as a dog "master", IMHO.
YOU let him get the hot dog wrapper and the foam thing. It's your fault. If he's running around loose where there is trash like that, what the hell do you expect him to do? The only way to control what your dog gets ahold of is to consistently get between him and whatever it is he's after. Everything in the house is YOURS, and he must be trained to come to you for access to it. Other humans in the household must be trained to prevent access to these things, and to assert their right to possession of whatever it might be... BEFORE the fact. By the time you're playing tug-of-war with your dog over something he really shouldn't have, it's already too late... you've completely undermined your position of dominance... by not being pre-emptive.

I know dogs often get into things outside the home, etc... your move is to grab the snout or the nape of the neck (where the dog's mother would grab them) and remove the object. Otherwise, forget it.

My dog used to have a habit of getting into the trash or any food within reach that was not in a metal or glass container. I had to work harder on my roommates than my dog to establish the correct protocols, but I also had to consistently come down like the Fist of God on my dog... this meant ALWAYS taking anything out of her mouth that was not approved, and taking the time, many a morning, to drag her out of her sleeping area and rub her nose in whatever it was she'd gotten into before cleaning it up. WITHOUT FAIL. If you just get all upset and clean it up, the dog will think "well, that was easy..."

Which reminds me of something I learned from Millan's show: when food magically appears in that bowl every morning, dogs often start looking for challenges when it comes to food. It's good to shake up the routine now and then; make them beg or hunt for their food.

Dogs are hunters by nature. Remember that. Even a useless puffball Pekinese has some wolf in him. They need to gain food by their wits from time to time, or they become neurotic.

When your dog is acting contrite after misbehaving, that is the perfect time to establish rules. Keep it simple, always asserting that you are the boss, but be just as thorough in praising good behavior. Even wolf pack leaders do this- lesser pack members are not browbeaten, they're just constrained. And when they do good, the leader shows them approval. Even beta members are important- they must still feel like they're part of the team, even when they've been punished.

A dog needs to believe you are serious, and since they don't understand your words, let alone your ideas of manners, you have to assert your dominance as dogs do- as many times as it takes. They can be stubborn and bold, so you must be even more stubborn and show no fear of their fangs. Dogs usually can be made to understand that human hands, collars and leashes will easily trump their fangs, which are the only tools and weapons a dog has.
Just as they must learn to rely on you for food, shelter and affection, they must learn to rely on you for discipline.
You don't have to yell, you don't have to hit them...in fact, both of these methods tend to make things worse. Forcing a submissive posture physically works pretty well, but if you have to do that on a regular basis, you're missing something. you must be consistent, cool and methodical... always one step ahead of the dog, keeping your emotions in check.

But how to understand doggie mischief?

It's very simple. If your dog begs at the table, for example, it's because somebody is giving him scraps at the table. My roommates are still soft touches, but Peg knows that when I am in the kitchen, she is to sit or lie down until I offer her something...always placed in her bowl or directly in her mouth... and never, ever when I am seated at the table. If she approaches the table when I am eating, I get up and either stare her down or I'll drag her away and make her lie down. Verbal commands only work when reinforced with a physical confrontation... eventually, most times the verbal command will be enough, but only if the dog understands that you are ready to do more than just bark. It's a psych-out contest, and any human of normal intelligence an out-psych a dog, because they are very simple-minded, no matter how many tricks they know.

If your dog is picking up anything he shouldn't have, it's because you are slacking off; it's that simple.

As far as the bone goes, if you give him a bone and don't want him growling at you over it, you have to really make him work for the bone in the first place, to show that he is only getting that bone thanks to you... an you can taketh away as well as giveth. But once they have it, it's irrational, in their minds, for you to want it back, hence the challenge (growling). So be careful what you give your dog... dogs play for keeps.

Peg sometimes gets a bit growly with her bones (I often give her raw beef shanks full of yummy marrow) because I am too casual sometimes in giving her one. But because I try hard to always observe proper protocols in every interaction with her, I can easily get past her bluster without any serious challenge, and take her bone or anything else away from her, if need be.

One technique I've used to get to that point is hunkering down next to her after giving her a bone and just looking at it. I'll take it away if she growls, then give it back. I usually don't have to do that twice. I can lie there and touch her bone when she is chewing it.

As it stands now, the only time Peg will even come close to biting (although it's mostly bluff) is when a visiting dog or cat gets too close to her bones, food, water, or bed... but that's between them; they can work that out better than I can. I intervene sometimes when that happens, but only to keep the peace and reassure the other humans present. But I know that among dogs, this sort of argument is usually over quickly, without bloodshed.

As others have stated, you simply cannot get a dog to see your point of view- you have to assert your dominance as they do amongst themselves.

If you really love your dog, do yourself and your dog a favor and try to think like he does, because he's never going to try to think like you do.

If you decide you can't manage that, consider offering him for adoption rather than putting him down- maybe someone else will do a better job with him.

 

[markb5900]

Sorry to hear about this Nick.
Either find a really GOOD trainer to help you or the alternative.
He has bit YOU, not some stranger.
As others have stated, at least it wasn't some kid that couldn't pull him off.
I know it can be hard, but what ever you decide to do. DO IT TODAY, don't wait and think about it. Next time he may lunge at your mom and not just her arm.

Mark B

 

[Andy Greever]

You work harder at training your dog.

Piper doesn't deserve to die just because you didn't train him properly.

 

[Skip Miller]

Piper doesn't deserve to die just because you didn't train him properly.

That's too harsh. Nick feels bad enough already.

-Skip

 

[Capt Binkley]

That's too harsh. Nick feels bad enough already.

-Skip

It may sound harsh, but I'd hazard to guess that 90% of dog owners in this country know little to nothing about training their dogs.

There has been some great advice on this here. And as to the criticism of Cesar Milan, the guy knows what he's talking about. His whole approach is understanding how a dog thinks, communicating the way he understands, and making absolute certain the dog knows who's boss at all times.

My wife and I starting training our dog at a very early age (see avatar). Every single time he showed any dominance to us or anyone else for that matter, we came down on him like a ton of bricks. Grab him by the throat, the ear, pin him to the ground belly exposed, and do not let up until he does. You might be there a while if you have an alpha minded dog, but you stay on top of him until he cries uncle. That's the only way the dog will learn who is boss.

Saw one trainer do this to a rotty and he had his knee in the dogs throat for a good two or three minutes before the dog realized he rather breathe than fight.

In a pack, other dogs get tough with dogs that get out of line. You need to be willing to get tough as well. Real tough in some instances.

Go find a good trainer, it will be money and time well spent. You'll be much happier and your dog will be much happier.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Find a good trainer and have them come into your home for some one-on-one sessions...

Then make it like Doggy Boot camp around the house for a while.

 

[etsisk]

You work harder at training your dog.

Piper doesn't deserve to die just because you didn't train him properly.

This is true.

Rotty had it right - make Piper work for his food. Feed him by hand, one kibble at a time, making him do sits and downs. He has to understand that the food comes from you. I'll let Maria post further - she's a trainer and has some ideas about dealing with food aggression, which is all this is.

This is fixable, Nick - it'll be ok.

 

[SkyHog]

OK, I found some good suggestions here and elsewhere. Apparently, alpha rolling him just made it worse, so that's something I'll have to deal with. I ordered a video about dealing with aggressive and dominant dogs, and I'm working on teaching the "Drop it" command (I had tried, but never knew how to do it, now I know).

Any last bits of just cuddly fun we have are over, since apparently, its not good to love a dog, you're supposed to be a jerk to the dog all the time. So he does not sleep in my bed. He does not get to come up and ask for a petting. He gets to stay on a leash at all times. Pretty much boot camp.

To be honest, I don't see why one would want to have a dog under these situations, but in my case, its important because I care about Piper, so I'll do it. But the dog is supposed to be man's best friend.

While I know its my fault, for those complaining because he had the ability to get a hot dog wrapper and a piece of styrofoam, I guess your dog has never gotten out of your sight for one moment, and if he did, he just kind of laid there, because they were perfect animals. I work, and my dog cannot be under 24 hour supervision. I refuse to crate train because I'm not a heartless bastard. I'll be a total jerk to my dog if it will save his life, but I'm not going to cage him up because a bunch of people on the internet (and no where else) seem to think its necessary.

So - why do y'all have dogs? Is it a control thing? Doesn't sound like much fun to take a dog from puppy until old age, making sure that dog is never loved and every moment is spent in either a cage or in some form of controlled situation. I needed companionship when I got Piper, not some personal beat-down toy.

 

[GMascelli]

I raised Dobermans and Rottweilers that we would show and I have had the large german males, it must start from day one. Dogs never go up or down stairs or through doorways before any human in this house. Also if you walk across the room and the dog is stretched out, don't cross him/her, make them get up and move. It's all about dominance. It can even be as simple as sharing your bed or furniture at home if they 'think' they are your equal your in deep crap.

I can stick my hand in any food dish with any dog I've owned including the italian mastif Mary and I have now.

A biter is a biter, and if they bite the hand that feeds them they wouldn't think twice about a stranger or child. If you feel up to the challenge you could try the "fake arm/hand" while feeding with 'leave it' commands and positive reinforcement as Piper responds. It's work and it takes patience but you may turn him around.

The hand feeding as mentioned will also work if you feel up to the task, either process will take time and patience.

Any last bits of just cuddly fun we have are over, since apparently, its not good to love a dog, you're supposed to be a jerk to the dog all the time. So he does not sleep in my bed. He does not get to come up and ask for a petting. He gets to stay on a leash at all times. Pretty much boot camp.

To be honest, I don't see why one would want to have a dog under these situations, but in my case, its important because I care about Piper, so I'll do it. But the dog is supposed to be man's best friend.

Nick, NOT TRUE! Once they learn their place in the pack it's a great relationship. Our dogs are like our children they get plenty of play time and cuddle time. What the difference is that now you will be able to trust him and he will know his place with the humans.

 

[etsisk]

Hi I am Maria, Tom's wife.
1) Biting and aggression is always serious. Do not play it down, do not ignore it. He broke your skin: these were warning bites for sure. If he wanted to do "real damage" he could have (cruched a bone, inches of puncture, serious injury to your face). So I think there is hope and a lot you can do about it without endangering yourself, your dad, or the dog. Here is my take of the situation and a few tips:
a) You may want to also talk to a vet with a back ground in dog behaviour (doggie shrink). Purpose: to learn what elicits aggression in dogs and how to recognize the early warning signs. There are plenty of signs before any growl or snap happens. Your dog is a perfectly normal dog, its the communication between humans and dogs that sometimes does not work.
b) Looks like as if you (and your dad) have become "competitors" in the eye of your dog and he is also anxious around you. Do NOT react with aggression or punishment now because that will probably deepen the anxiety and make a serious bite more likely. IT IS DANGEROUS!!!! To remember: aggressive behaviour (animals and humans) is in most cases a sign of anxiety and insecurity
c) You need to become the "provider" not the "competitor" for ANYTHING your dog wants or needs. Behavioural concept: Nothing in life is free:
i) no more free food, toys, or treats; let your dog work for it. By the way this is fun and will deepen your relationship. You are allowed to smile and laugh when you do it. You can teach tricks etc and show them off. My dogs do handshakes, paw waves, roll overs, weaves, heel, attention sits etc. Two of my dogs are food aggressive and you would not know it if you saw them work for their food.
ii) take the food bowl away: feed him dinner, breakfast by hand and ask him to sit before you give him a handful; if he is a little rough taking it out of your hand, place a handful in his bowl and let him eat out of the bowl while you are holding the bowl. One little handful at a time and a sit is required before you give it. (Ask a dog trainer how to teach a sit if you do not know how to; it is easy: hold food at dog nose height and move slowly back over the head, dog head comes up, butt goes down, its biomechanics; may take a few reps but is it pretty easy)
iii) NEVER just take anything away from your dog. Exchange it for something else. Here is an example: take something your dog likes to take but something not too important to him (a ball, a stick). When he takes it, offer a small piece of cheese (chicken, beef, etc) and have him drop the ball in your hands; when you pick up his (empty) food bowl, give him a little of his food in exchange; throw those (empty) food wrappers on the ground, offer some steak for an exchange. Purpose: your dog will start to like it when you come to get something because something REALLY good will happen to him. Apple, who is food aggressive, will spit out any raw hide chewie when I take it because she knows she will get it back with Peanut Butter on it. Mica, my other food aggressive dog (fear aggression biter) starts drooling when I take his food bowl. Life is good, you know!

When you do all this be careful for any sign of aggression or anxiety (always watch those ears, lips and whether the body is loose or stiff). Any sign of aggression, step away and let it be. Eat the cheese, steak, yourself, put the dog food or treat away (don't think you wanna eat that it is pretty nasty I can assure) but otherwise ignore the dog. If he wants to ever (in his life) eat dinner or breakfast again he will have to be nice the next time, remember, no more free food.

Remember, you are the human with the thumbs (necessary to open doors, cans, refrigerators, treatbags etc). You are not your dog's friend, you will have to be GOD who provides (at least in the eyes of your dog). A little self indulgence can not hurt.

Good luck!!!!!

 

[Greebo]

Nick,

First of all:
GET YOUR ARM LOOKED AT AND GET ON ANTIBIOTICS NOW!

Dog bites even from the best of dogs, if they break skin, are very dangerous. My wife had a nip from a pit-bull mix (that was playful and not intentional) and she got a SERIOUS infection that, if she hadn't gotten on very strong antibiotics right away, would have hospitalized her for intravenous antibiotics.

Ok, that out of the way - I have 2 dogs, and love them to death, but I am undisputedly their master. This is not because I love control, but because DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS. Dogs NEED the strong, rigid control structure of a strong pack leader. If you are not the top dog in their mind, then they will instinctively take on that roll.

Firmly establishing yourself as the pack leader will train the dog to follow your lead, not to act on their own instinct.

You need to get a good - a very good - animal trainer who works with aggressive dogs and learn how to bring yours in line. Trust me, as master/dog you will both be much happier.

A good animal trainer doesn't teach the dog anything. They teach you.

 

[etsisk]

Nick, NOT TRUE! Once they learn their place in the pack it's a great relationship. Our dogs are like our children they get plenty of play time and cuddle time. What the difference is that now you will be able to trust him and he will know his place with the humans.

Ok, it's Tom again!

I agree with this - once things are back on solid footing, you guys are good to go again! Just remember to keep the training up, keep working with him on the food bowls, bones, etc. so he'll remember what's what. There's always hope. Mica - aussie cattledog/aussie shepherd mix - is an actual lunatic, got him from a pound and he'd been there a while - it wasn't good, when he first came. Couldn't sit still for five seconds (I timed him), would food guard and growl - didn't bite, because we didn't let it get to that point, but I fully expect he would have. Now he'll still worry about his food or chewie or whatever, but he'll gladly give 'em up, too - 'cause there's always a payoff.

And for folks that think you have to use force and MAKE 'em do what you want 'em to, that think positive training doesn't work, take a trip to Sea World and see how they do it. What do ya think would happen the first time you smacked a killer whale?

And, yeah - GET YOUR ARM LOOKED AT!!

 

[rottydaddy]

OK, I found some good suggestions here and elsewhere. Apparently, alpha rolling him just made it worse, so that's something I'll have to deal with. I ordered a video about dealing with aggressive and dominant dogs, and I'm working on teaching the "Drop it" command (I had tried, but never knew how to do it, now I know).

Any last bits of just cuddly fun we have are over, since apparently, its not good to love a dog, you're supposed to be a jerk to the dog all the time. So he does not sleep in my bed. He does not get to come up and ask for a petting. He gets to stay on a leash at all times. Pretty much boot camp.

To be honest, I don't see why one would want to have a dog under these situations, but in my case, its important because I care about Piper, so I'll do it. But the dog is supposed to be man's best friend.

While I know its my fault, for those complaining because he had the ability to get a hot dog wrapper and a piece of styrofoam, I guess your dog has never gotten out of your sight for one moment, and if he did, he just kind of laid there, because they were perfect animals. I work, and my dog cannot be under 24 hour supervision. I refuse to crate train because I'm not a heartless bastard. I'll be a total jerk to my dog if it will save his life, but I'm not going to cage him up because a bunch of people on the internet (and no where else) seem to think its necessary.

So - why do y'all have dogs? Is it a control thing? Doesn't sound like much fun to take a dog from puppy until old age, making sure that dog is never loved and every moment is spent in either a cage or in some form of controlled situation. I needed companionship when I got Piper, not some personal beat-down toy.

First of all, I didn't mean to be hard on you personally- I was just stating the facts. By saying you may not being able to handle your dog, I'm not saying you're a schmuck... everybody has plenty of other things that take up their time, and everybody gets frustrated when they come home after a hard day to find the sofa ripped up instead of Fido sitting there with your slippers and newspaper. And dogs just don't think like we do... it's bewildering, sometimes.

I'm no master dog handler, but I know what I've done right and what I've done wrong, and I accept the responsibility. And I've learned that once you're PO'd at your dog, you have to back up and ask yourself what you did wrong before you punish them.
It can be frustrating and yes, it takes a lot of time, but it's worth it to have a loving companion who's also on the same page as you in terms of the rules of the game.



I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, dominating my dog has been a matter of necessity, not pleasure. But generally speaking, it's possible to get your dog to the point where you don't have to "be a jerk" all the time.
Reinforcing good behavior and responding consistently to bad behavior should lead to better behavior, so the domination stuff can be minimized.


And being a strict master doesn't mean the fun, easygoing companionship thing is impossible... I am certain that one reason my dog respects me is because we also have an emotional bond.
It's been easier for me because she is not an alpha-type and is very laid-back and sweet by nature, but I think a good balance of love and respect is possible with just about any dog.

Good luck; I know you really care about your dog, which is more than a lot of people can say... I know that will help you.

 

[KennyFlys]

Nick, I'm just curious. Did you have Piper from a pup or did you get him in later months or years? I really hope you can work this out with some professional training help.

I've been around only a few dogs for any period of time in my life. One was a German Shepherd, a retired police dog. Duchess was incredibly protective of myself and my sister. My folks couldn't even raise their voice to me around her. She was one neat dog. We were fortunate for her to have such great command training as well as be so playful. The best we can figure is someone had antagonized her when no one was home. She jumped the fence and found her way out to the highway where her body was found.

For a while, my mom had a Chihuahua. I hated that dog and it hated everyone. He had to have been the most aggressive dog I'd ever seen for his size. All Chihuahuas belong in Korea!

Then, we had a Chow. She was a pup from another sister's dog. Friendly as ever but had died after a couple years. I can't recall why.

Later, there was Nikki, a white shepherd/husky mix. She had been abused when younger but warmed up to my mom, dad and I in a few months. I recall a picture my mom had snapped when I was home on leave. She had crawled in bed with me and placed her head up on the pillow. While I was at sea, mom was no longer able to care for her so she was given to a farmer... who let her run free around a working farming tractor. A sad loss.

The last one was a shepherd/wolf mix. Her name was also Nikki and owned by a girlfriend. By appearance, she was a Shepherd but had all the characteristics of a wolf; being very skittish and weary of any fast movement, you brought in food slowly and never lost eye contact. She wasn't aggressive but we knew she was strong. She had dug out from her pen a few times and at least twice had killed a deer and dragged the carcass back to the house (We lived in a canyon above Boulder). It took at least six months to get near her and pet her. One thing Nikki taught me, a dog's normal appearance and demeanor may be very deceiving. Nikki wasn't the best animal to be kept around but Beth couldn't bring herself to ever do anything that would lead to Nikki being put down.

 

[Henning]

Any last bits of just cuddly fun we have are over, since apparently, its not good to love a dog, you're supposed to be a jerk to the dog all the time. So he does not sleep in my bed. He does not get to come up and ask for a petting. He gets to stay on a leash at all times. Pretty much boot camp.

So - why do y'all have dogs? Is it a control thing? Doesn't sound like much fun to take a dog from puppy until old age, making sure that dog is never loved and every moment is spent in either a cage or in some form of controlled situation. I needed companionship when I got Piper, not some personal beat-down toy.

There is no reason for the cuddly fun to be over, you just have to realize, that to him, cuddly fun is also part of establishing pack dominance, it has been since the first time he went for a nipple or played with his siblings. You can't make the mistake of humanizing a dog, especially a genetic Alpha. What you need to learn is what the Alpha cues he signals on are and use them. If you want him to sleep in your bed, that's not a problem, go ahead, if he jumps up with out being called, knock him off playfully, when he finally stays off, THEN call him up, but YOU lay with your arm/head on top of him, don't let him lay his paws or head on top of you. Now since you already have an issue with Piper over him being Alpha and getting things away from him, you may need to temporarily regress the situation from one of dominance to one of play. The easiest way to do this is to drop to your knees and forearms in front of him in a play bow, bounce side to side a couple of times and when you see him react in a non aggressive manner (shifting to Play mode), knock the item away, keep up the play grab him close and tight and firmly rub his chest and throat. This starts to re-establish your dominance in the play mode rather than the fight mode. This is all instinctive with dogs and they can't help but react to it. There is never a reason to beat or be an a**hole to your dog, you just have to learn their mode of communication. Most issues with animals can be cured by training the owners.

 

[etsisk]

Good advice, Henning, with the "who's on top of whom" business.

Nick, be very careful with the whole Alpha Rolling business - I notice you said you tried it and it made things worse ...
if you find yourself as the Party of the Second Part in a dog fight, don't be blaming Piper - you'll be the one that started it! There are better ways.

 

[poadeleted20]

You and the dog need serious training immediately if you don't want to lose him. Contact the local dog trainers (you can find them via the AKC or places like PetSmart) and get the two of you enrolled at once. Note that this is a process of months or years, not an overnight fix, and will require you to commit time and effort on a daily basis to make it work. Until then, you may need some sort of muzzling device to ensure safety.

 

[jesse]

I was around a lot of dogs growing up. Everything from little tiny lap dogs to full sized Saint Bernards and active police german sheppards. I am almost positive that there isn't a dog out there that won't at some point challenge a human. Some of them will do it by command and others will do it at complete random.

My most memorable experience with an aggressive dog was some type of mutt. He was the neighbors dog and I played with him all the time. I'd run over and start petting him--play tug of war with him..etc.

One day someone told me that the neighbors dog was aggressive and tried to bite them a couple months ago. I didn't believe them at all and walked over to play with the dog like I always did. This time I had a slight fear of the dog in the back of my head and it instantly went into attack mode.

There are also those dogs--that people say wouldn't hurt a fly. They'll let them play with babies and do whatever. For a long time I believed that dogs like this existed--I believed we had such a dog. One day it ran through an open door and just bit the first random person it could outside. I'm willing to bet that this lady showed fear to the tiny dog as it approached and the dog fed off this.

I've found that most dogs will trigger on fear. If you approach them with confidence and absolutely no fear they will stand down. There are some that will hold their ground and challenge you but doing something similar to as Henning suggested will put them back into their place.

I've not entirely sure how you teach a dog like that to not challenge every human it encounters. I'm not sure you can. I do know that they can distinguish the difference between people that have showed dominance to them and those that haven't. Can you teach such a dog that all humans have dominance over them no matter how the human approaches them? I doubt it.

Most Dogs have killer instincts. Yes even your family dog. If you don't believe this--put them in a fenced in area with a squirrel or rabbit. My little sister even discovered recently that her harmless golden retriever left in a room alone with a small bird was a bad idea.

*Snap*...feathers everywhere...no more birdy

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Not sure how old your dog is or its past history? That might determine what kind of training is possible for your dog.

I agree with most of what Henning said. I have 3 labs (hardly aggressive dogs) and have had several litters. Having 3 at one time does give you a chance to see some pack behaviors and pecking orders among the dogs. I'm not sure you're gonna want to be putting your dog in a submissive position without a muzzle. You're gonna have a fight on your hands until he learns you are boss.

The alpha of the group tends to be the one that's always first to eat, trying to leg up on you, and domineering of the group. I do have an alpha. They do play hard with each other and do growl and bite each other. Not enough biting to draw blood, but enough to establish the pecking order among the dogs. I have young kids and the dogs have learned to respect the kids as well as adults. At young ages, the puppies were conditioned by putting them on their backs until they look away and act submissive. The kids performed the training so they've learned that pecking order also. The labs probably would not be as aggressive towards kids than maybe another breed (but they are dogs and I'd not trust that).

My dogs are crate trained from puppies. Do not get the wrong idea about crating a dog. They find comfort in the crate and do enjoy being in a small confined area, kinda like being in a den. That's natural for them. I've used crating as a way to control behaviors when I can't be there to train and direct them. There's nothing wrong or in humane for them to be crated for up to 6 hours. There are some tips like not to feed them or over water them prior to crating. My point is that crating is not cruel and is good for them. My dogs, now that they are adults, will go to their crates on their own now and I don't close the doors. When they want to be alone or sleep they go to the crate. That is their quite, safe place.

Sounds like you have some re-training to do. I'm no dog expert, but your pet needs to re-learn it's pecking order. You are the boss and need to learn to communicate to your dog in ways he'll understand you and everyone else's dominance over the dog. Your pet needs to learn to be second in the human world.

Best wishes,
Rick

 

[mantakos]

Dogs don't think like people, they think like dogs. If you want to communicate with your dog, you have to communicate in dog, not in people. You never plead or reason or explain with a dog, that's how humans communicate. If you find yourself speaking in complete sentences to your dog, you're on the wrong track. Actions that seem downright rude in human (e.g. pinning a dog against the ground), are no more than a sternly phrased reminder in dog.

I see dog owners who are afraid of offending their dogs, afraid of hurting the dog's feelings. They ask the dog nicely to behave. They remind the dog firmly of the conversation they had before leaving the house, and how they had, at that time, established that the dog was to behave well during the walkies that was to follow. For some reason, this doesn't work. They think they're being nice to the dog.

In the end, though, as a result of all this "niceness", they end up with a dog that spends all it's time stuck in the house, because the dog isn't well behaved enough to "come with" anywhere. The dog never gets to interact with other people, nor other dogs. When the dog is allowed out, it's taken out in one of those ridiculous muzzle things, like Hannibal Lector, because the owner needs that advantage in order to help win the physical struggle of the leash. In extreme situations, the dog is considered too socially dysfunctional, and is put down. All so that the owner could be "nice" to the dog.

A well-trained dog gets to be a constant companion. Gets to ride in the car everywhere. Gets to visit the grandparents and the nieces and nephews. Gets to play. Gets to hang out at the dog park and sniff all the butts there. The price of admission is no worse than occasional reminders that seem impolite in human society, but which are perfectly acceptable phrases in dog.

If you grab your human friend, pin him to the ground, and shout at him, he will probably not want to hang out with you again. If you do this to a dog, his response will be "okay, okay, I get it. What fun can we have now?"
-harry

 

[Danos]

There are also those dogs--that people say wouldn't hurt a fly. They'll let them play with babies and do whatever. For a long time I believed that dogs like this existed--I believed we had such a dog. One day it ran through an open door and just bit the first random person it could outside. I'm willing to bet that this lady showed fear to the tiny dog as it approached and the dog fed off this.

When I was growing up something similar happened. The dog's name was Quincy. He attacked a small girl one day out of the blue. Shortly thereafter Quincy disappeared. He went to the "country". Years later I figured out what country he went to.

I've found that most dogs will trigger on fear. If you approach them with confidence and absolutely no fear they will stand down. There are some that will hold their ground and challenge you but doing something similar to as Henning suggested will put them back into their place.

Very true! I was jogging a few weeks ago and thsi BIG montrosity of a dog decided to follow me. I closely watched it and its body language adn proximity then it started snarling and barking at me. I figured that it probably though I was runing from it so I stopped running and walked towards briskly it not losing eye contact making sharp short loud noises at it. It ran away. The dog was big enough to put in full on a rear naked choke which was my plan it things got really ugly.

 

[Andy Greever]

That's too harsh. Nick feels bad enough already.

-Skip

I'm sure he does feel bad, but he eluded to the possibility of putting the dog to sleep because of the problem.

I think that would be wrong.

He's getting some great advice and it sounds like everything will work out.

I meant no disrespect towards Nick.

 

[Henning]

Nick, be very careful with the whole Alpha Rolling business.

Can someone explain to me what an "Alpha Roll" is? I'm not a professional dog trainer nor had any training, I just used to have 14 working dogs at one time (and a dozen+ cats, 6-20 horses at any time, a dozen Llamas, between 100 & 300 goats, and a skunk who BTW was the best sweetest pet I ever had) and just kinda had to learn on my own.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Best way to explain it is to put the dog down on his back. Hold him there until he gives up resisting to be on his back. That will teach the dog to be submissive.

You may get bit with an unruly dog....that's where the muzzle comes in.

 

[Andy Greever]

Best way to explain it is to put the dog down on his back. Hold him there until he gives up resisting to be on his back. That will teach the dog to be submissive.

You may get bit with an unruly dog....that's where the muzzle comes in.

Yep, that's it. I've seen the DogWhisperer do that many times.

(some of the advice Henning gave, could have come straight from the Dog Whisperers' mouth, especially the part about training the Owners, NOT the dogs')

 

[silver-eagle]

All in all, I'm much happier with my dog than my kid. Dogs, like children, need structure, control, and discipline. All is not lost. With a little work, life can be sweet again. Good luck with Piper.

 

[Henning]

Best way to explain it is to put the dog down on his back. Hold him there until he gives up resisting to be on his back. That will teach the dog to be submissive.

You may get bit with an unruly dog....that's where the muzzle comes in.

Thanks for the info, in my experience, this is a worthless and confusing (to the dog) tactic. Unless you have him by the throat pinching off his windpipe, this will do you no good. Dogs don't understand wrestling, they understand choking, they don't wrestle each other and tap out, they choke each other to submission. The key is, when they submit, it's over, and when they come back to you with their tail and head down, it's time to pet them and accept their submission.

 

[SkyHog]

Nick, I'm just curious. Did you have Piper from a pup or did you get him in later months or years? I really hope you can work this out with some professional training help.

Yeah, I had Piper from the time he was a wee little puppy. He made his first public appearance at Gastons 2 years ago (so cute back then).

 

[mantakos]

By the way, this discussion has become all about "correction", but I think it should be pointed out that what we're discussing is not something that should need to be done routinely. You don't establish dominance over a dog by rolling him onto his back on a regular basis. You establish dominance by continually being in charge. By controlling what happens and when. A well trained dog looks to you to find out if he can jump up on the bed, if it's time to walk across the street, if he's allowed to go pee on that tree, if he's allowed to have some of the food sitting there. That's done through a continual process of small gestures, not occasional executions of professional wrestling maneuvers.

In extreme situations, though, it is occasionally necessary to "correct", and these corrections occasionally need to extend beyond "small gestures", as responses to _extreme_ misbehavior (like violence against other dogs, or people). What I've done, on occasion, would be best characterized as "pinning and standing over". This has been, for me, an extremely rarely needed maneuver, only necessary in extreme situations. Far more often, when it's necessary to get "hands on", it's smaller actions like holding the dog's nose in your hand and giving a shake, getting in his face and staring him down, maybe shaking from the dog's shoulders.

I've never seen the need to cut off a dog's wind-pipe, and frankly, I think that's a bit ridiculous, though I can see "communication" in pinching/nipping at the throat. I've also never tried to roll a dog fully onto his back, I've found some dogs resist this, I suspect out of fear. Your goal is not to make the dog fear for his life, your goal is not to communicate that you're trying to kill him.

For what it's worth, just like in raising children, different techniques come and go in popularity, and there are many who dismiss the concept of "alpha roll" as misguided, pointing out that while the "premise" here was that this is similar to how dogs communicate dominance over each other, the act of flipping an animal on its back is actually only done with intention to harm or kill the animal, and is not something that real world dogs/wolves do. The concern is that the dog interprets this as an act of violence against the dog, and may feel the need to defend himself, which is not the territory you're trying to get into by asserting dominance.

We could probably clear this up pretty quickly, if any of the regulars here are actually dogs, and could chime in.
-harry

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Most of the advice (especially seeking either a Behaviour Consultant or a Certified Dog Trainer to help you) is pretty good, only thing I will add is; Your Safety is most important thing. If you try to dominate your dog with some of these techniques, be careful, there is no way you cannot predict the outcome. Many people have been seriously injured by manhandling a dog they really had no business messing with. I had a client who lost two fingers this way. I have another client who took a canine tooth through the eye. Its not something for the uninformed.
Find an expert, Nick and good luck.

Here are some of the indications of 'higher achievement' in dog trainer world if you go to look for one:

Certified Pet Dog Trainer CCPDT
AKC Approved CGC Evaluator
Member APDT
Certified Member IAABC
Professional Member ABMA
Member IIACAB

in the veterinary realm, there is a specialty "Behaviorist".

 

[Henning]

I've never seen the need to cut off a dog's wind-pipe, and frankly, I think that's a bit ridiculous, -harry

When you have a 120+lb Great Pyrenees who's been raised as a guardian dog trying to tear your throat out for trying to stop him from attacking someone that is not known to him (my MIL trying to pick up one of the baby goats), you may change your opinion on that. BTW, it worked just fine, he came out of attack mode and was just fine. Watch what the dogs go for when they fight. When it gets serious, you have to communicate with them in no uncertain terms TO THEM.

Outside of that, I completely agree with you, the little reinforcement signals are something that should happen on a continuous and friendly subliminal basis. Stroking the throat, putting his/her snout in your hand gently and giving it a little playful shake, roll him on his back and briskly rub his belly, all freindly and comfortable acts, and to a dog, all cues of pack dominance. It's best to use all the alpha cues in your daily "play" mode interactions as it sets their definite position in any situation.

 

[kevin47881]

<snip>By this, do you mean you grabbed him by the throat, holding him down and pinching off his windpipe until he submitted? If so, that's the best way I know to establish "Alpha" over your dog.

I had to do the exact same thing with my now 7 year old when he was about 3. After he bit into my arm I literally grabbed him by the throat and held him up against the chimney until he had that "oh ****" look in his eyes. Haven't had another problem with him since.

 

[SkyHog]

When you have a 120+lb Great Pyrenees who's been raised as a guardian dog trying to tear your throat out for trying to stop him from attacking someone that is not known to him (my MIL trying to pick up one of the baby goats), you may change your opinion on that. BTW, it worked just fine, he came out of attack mode and was just fine. Watch what the dogs go for when they fight. When it gets serious, you have to communicate with them in no uncertain terms TO THEM.

Outside of that, I completely agree with you, the little reinforcement signals are something that should happen on a continuous and friendly subliminal basis. Stroking the throat, putting his/her snout in your hand gently and giving it a little playful shake, roll him on his back and briskly rub his belly, all freindly and comfortable acts, and to a dog, all cues of pack dominance. It's best to use all the alpha cues in your daily "play" mode interactions as it sets their definite position in any situation.

That is one of the perplexing things about this. I always walk by and tap his head, rub his throat, and playfully push him around. I can also often put him on his back and rub his belly, without a single objection. He gave every sign that he was submissive until last night.

I feel horrible right now, its all I can think about at work, because it was so weird to see that side of sweet wonderful Piper. To see his evil side was disturbing to say the least, and its scary. I have to break him of this, because by taking his bone, I pretty much did what any child would do trying to play, and had I been a child, I'd have a broken arm or be dead right now.

Scary.

 

[Anymouse]

We could probably clear this up pretty quickly, if any of the regulars here are actually dogs, and could chime in.
-harry

Well, there are those that have called me a dog!!

Actually I've been watching this thread with interest. I got a dog a bunch of years ago. He was a mostly black lab with a bit of white fur on his throat. I called him Padre since he looked like a priest. Bottom line, after two or three months I realized that I was totally botching my role as caretaker and trainer (working two jobs, never home, etc.) and passed him on to a friend. As much as I like dogs, I swore that I would never get another one until I had the ability to spend the time and effort to do things right. I've seen too many unruly pets and far more awesome pets to want to do different.

Nick, I feel for ya. Good luck. I hope it all turns out good.