NavCanada vs. US ATC: Opinions?

colojo

colojo

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Colojo
Today an opinion piece came out in the Wall Street Journal that was strongly in favor of privatizing the US air traffic control system, and it touted NavCanada as a shining, successful example of why we should do so. I'd be curious to hear from pilots on both sides of the border who are familiar with both systems to compare and contrast the two. I've only flown to Canada once, back in 2000 and only to one airport, so I don't have an opinion of my own.
 
Canada is no where near at the same scale of operation, which should be kept in mind when making comparisons...


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gsengle said:
Canada is no where near at the same scale of operation, which should be kept in mind when making comparisons...


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Click to expand...

Whats the delta on the US vs Canadian ATC operations?
 
Next thing you know the FAA will be doing it like everyone, like charging you a fee to submit and review a field approval, airmen application, airworthiness certificate application, or operator's certificate (135/121) application etc.
 
I'd be curious as to why they think NavCanada is better.

From the perspective of a pilot in the left seat, I find that they're pretty similar. They both speak English and are friendly and generally accommodating (US ATC moreso than Canadian). Canada has a great amount of uncontrolled airspace. I don't think flying into a big airport in Canada is any better or worse from an ATC perspective than flying into a US airport. I do like the "fast close a flight plan" feature where you basically leave a message with your name, tail number, arrival airport and time when landing at remote airports. Unlike the US where you may have to talk to Lockheed Martin (with a long hold time) this happens quickly. However that is also different because these are airports in uncontrolled airspace so they don't have to wait for a report to free up the airspace for anyone else.

Flight Planning is better in the US. Better products. Filing flight plans has gotten about on par, I can file US and Canadian flight plans with basically the same tools. My first Canadian trip in 2010 this was not the case, and I had to call NavCanada for that.

Big difference? The fees. NavCanada you get a bunch of them mailed to you, which as I've said elsewhere I think is a bad idea, whereas here it's baked into the fuel tax. I've seen far too many cheap pilots who would do anything to save a nickel (even when flying $1,000/hr turboprops) and would stop filing flight plans, using flight following, etc. if ATC start charging fees.

We have it really good here. Let's keep it that way.
 
Keep in mind taxes are taxes, I don't care what or where they are I just judge by what I pay OTD.

US was waaaay better and costs less for US pilots.

It's like a fight between a Doberman and a chiwawa

Aside from then shear number of airports and approaches in the US, try this.

Go to Canada, don't talk to anyone, pay anyone, file anything, just take off a uncontrolled field, fill up your 100LL for less than Canada normally charges, take off and request flight following to you destination, climb to VFR ontop, notice it's not as forecasts is you might have a hard time getting down, get a pop up IFR, now notice you have a good tailwind and are going to be a little early, go shoot a PAR at your local airfield, then radar vectors to your field, well it looks like it's going to be getting even worse, get vectors to the IF for the LPV, land, cancel IFR, go home, no bills or anything ever comes in the mail.
 
Oh yeah, should have also mentioned you were able to print all your plates for free, plan on foreflight, or skyvector, or fltplan, etc
 
I've flown in Canada many times, albeit in a business jet, and I find ATC services are pretty much equal in quality.
 
If you fly in Canada, you get bills in the mail.

That right there is enough to make me not want it.
 
Plus what's the incentive to not give airlines preferental treatment and block GA out of using the airspace?

Right now a dude in a 152 can fly into DFW and he's given the same service as the big boys. Under a private system that same guy could be told to get lost or denied landing.

I've been put on holding vectors so ATC could get a small guy in. I didn't mind one bit as he got there first and has every right to land before us.
 
It'll be the ATC version of [lack of] "net neutrality", if this thing goes private. User fees would then seek to further disincentive use by the "undesirables". Same ol tired privatization dog and pony show. If we go user fees, I'll be the first one to actively lobby for toll roads everywhere. This is America, no carve-outs. We all burn together, right? yeah.:rolleyes:
 
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Like many have said, if it gets privatized, they are gonna start charging user fees, therefore, less people will contact ATC for flight following, only file IFR when they need to, and safety will be reduced in my opinion.
 
OkieAviator said:
Whats the delta on the US vs Canadian ATC operations?
Click to expand...

Like 5x?

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https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/defau...ir Navigation Systems Final Report^9-2-15.pdf


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It will be like making a collect call back in the day.

XYC Center, Bugsmasher N12345 with request
Bugsmasher N12345, state your request
345 requesting VFR flight following to Podunk Municipal at 4,500ft
Bugsmasher 345, Roger, Squawk 1234, that'll be about tree-fitty, do you accept the charges?
 
Tyndall
Someone said that for the $65 you can fly into all but the 6 biggest airports in Canada. Is that true? If it is, how does that compare to our Class B airports? I fly into KHOU Hobby airport in Houston frequently and have flown into KIAH Houston Intercontinental. In each case I'm treated very well by the controllers and the folks on the field.

While there are airports I probably wouldn't fly into because I don't have a reason I like having the option to do so without any additional fees. Once you're on the ground the costs can be significantly higher than they are at smaller airports but even on the ground I feel like I'm treated like everyone else. Everyone pays much more in ground fees at those airports.

I prefer the fuel based fees because it prevents a lot of games but the key to me is maintaining the freedom to fly where I want to. Many of us feel like we'll lose that if ATC is privatized in the US and is controlled by a board that is primarily made up of representatives from the airlines.

Gary
 
Is it $65 per year or per quarter? I think that's what I paid for one trip through Canada to Alaska and back.
Flight plans are required, most airports had desks with phones to a common FSS for weather briefs and filing.
It got that each day I called, they knew my N number and asked where to today?

VFR flight plans are automatically activated at proposed departure time.
If you were late getting off the ground, be sure to let them know so the ETA can be adjusted.
Control Towers automatically canceled your VFR flight plan.
The weather briefers were great, really knew their areas and what to expect as storm fronts moved through.
 
GaryV said:
Tyndall
Someone said that for the $65 you can fly into all but the 6 biggest airports in Canada. Is that true?
Click to expand...
Yep. There's a fee for Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. All have more GA friendly airports nearby with no fees. If you did decide to fly into one of those city's main airports, the charge is $10/24 hours but the timer doesn't start till you depart. And it's good for multiple airports within the 24 hours - Leave Edmonton, stop in Calgary, stop in Winnipeg, carry on to Toronto - $10. Spend the day ****ing off airliners by doing touch and goes in Ottawa - $10.

BillTIZ said:
Is it $65 per year or per quarter? I think that's what I paid for one trip through Canada to Alaska and back.
Flight plans are required, most airports had desks with phones to a common FSS for weather briefs and filing.
It got that each day I called, they knew my N number and asked where to today?
Click to expand...

$65 per year if under 6600lbs. Foreign aircraft can pay quarterly at 25%, but as the quarters have fixed dates, it's possible to have a week long trip hit two quarters.

Flight plans are sorta required. You have the option of using a flight itinerary for VFR. That's where you leave your flight info with anyone who will notify SAR if you are late. It's based on the honor system, so when you say you have an "itinerary to CYVR", they won't verify it.
 
If privatization occurs I predict everything below 18k will become automated (ADS-B).

Pilots won't have to pay because they'll never ever talk to anyone. Will safety be compromised? Not sure..
 
pkuhns said:
If privatization occurs I predict everything below 18k will become automated (ADS-B).

Pilots won't have to pay because they'll never ever talk to anyone. Will safety be compromised? Not sure..
Click to expand...

ADS-B isn't required in all of that space.
 
donjohnston said:
Wait a minute...

The UK has three times as much airspace as Canada???

How is that possible? Are they counting parts of the North Atlantic?
Click to expand...

That's controlled airspace. Not total airspace. Class G is excluded.


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I don't think anyone has mentioned Canadian FSS. In my experience the briefings are far better than we get in the US. AFIK the US briefers are limited to the material available to them and discouraged or prohibited from offering opinions. In Canada it feels like talking to an actual weather man and they are very helpful. One time I was watching a cold front and asked the briefer if he thought that it would come through overnight. The answer was something like this: "I've actually been watching that one. It's making about 40 knots and should pass when you're sleeping." Another time the briefer gave me a play-by-play on thunderstorms popping up, using the IR satellite imagery. The plural of anecdote is not data, I understand, but I just feel that I get higher quality information in Canada.

Re cost: IMO the fees are more a PITA than they are an economic issue. I've always gotten paper bills that have to be paid; maybe there is a way to put a credit card on file.
 
airdale said:
I don't think anyone has mentioned Canadian FSS. In my experience the briefings are far better than we get in the US. AFIK the US briefers are limited to the material available to them and discouraged or prohibited from offering opinions. In Canada it feels like talking to an actual weather man and they are very helpful. One time I was watching a cold front and asked the briefer if he thought that it would come through overnight. The answer was something like this: "I've actually been watching that one. It's making about 40 knots and should pass when you're sleeping." Another time the briefer gave me a play-by-play on thunderstorms popping up, using the IR satellite imagery. The plural of anecdote is not data, I understand, but I just feel that I get higher quality information in Canada.

Re cost: IMO the fees are more a PITA than they are an economic issue. I've always gotten paper bills that have to be paid; maybe there is a way to put a credit card on file.
Click to expand...

Except FSS is the one thing ALREADY privatized in the US...


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My first clue that I'm leaving Canadian Airspace for US - "Datalink Lost". Back to the Stone Age of voice procedures. You gotta love CPDLC - quiet, simple and effortless.
 
airdale said:
I don't think anyone has mentioned Canadian FSS. In my experience the briefings are far better than we get in the US. AFIK the US briefers are limited to the material available to them and discouraged or prohibited from offering opinions. In Canada it feels like talking to an actual weather man and they are very helpful. One time I was watching a cold front and asked the briefer if he thought that it would come through overnight. The answer was something like this: "I've actually been watching that one. It's making about 40 knots and should pass when you're sleeping." Another time the briefer gave me a play-by-play on thunderstorms popping up, using the IR satellite imagery. The plural of anecdote is not data, I understand, but I just feel that I get higher quality information in Canada.

Re cost: IMO the fees are more a PITA than they are an economic issue. I've always gotten paper bills that have to be paid; maybe there is a way to put a credit card on file.
Click to expand...

Shy of students pilots and low timers, who calls for a briefing?
 
They didn't when I was there in 2001 and 2002.
My error. I should have updated myself.
 
As a Canadian pilot who's flown in the US a couple times, I find the quality of ATC service generally very comparable. Both usually very friendly and accommodating as long as you're proficient. The FSS briefings seem to be a bit better north of the border but given my limited time stateside it's hard to say for sure. For the <$100 per year that the typical Canadian GA pilot pays I think you're getting pretty good bang-for-buck, and the fact that it's run independent of gov't funding is a big plus in my books. I've never paid a landing fee either, though haven't landed at any of the major airports. I have done plenty of low passes over YVR though. $30 or so if you trip the landing sensor...
 
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