Who Needs An Air Force?

jnmeade

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Jim Meade
If we're going to unmanned aircraft, why do we need an Air Force? The Army would be perfectly happy to assume responsibility for all unmanned aircraft ground support, including interdiction and ground-air defense. The Navy/Marines would happily fly unmanned aircraft to support their mission. So, what's the Air Force to do? Some kind of strategic missile mission? The Navy is already doing that with subs and could expand to handle ground based strategic missions, as well. Emory Riddle or North Dakota State would probably be happy to grind out the UAS pilots. If we are striving to have a purple command and control staff, there isn't much need for blue.
 
Space. That's where the money is in the AF right now.
And the Air Force needs to get out of the space business. The ability to fly airplanes, acquire airplanes, and support national policy through air power has no congruency with the need to operate unmanned satellites, acquire spacecraft, and support national policy through space power. You wouldn't put the Air Force in charge of operating attack submarines, and space operations are just as unrelated to the Air Force's traditional mission.

I worked with a lot of fine Air Force engineers in my forty years in the space business; none of them were promoted past Lieutenant Colonel. They didn't have wings, and thus were at a disadvantage against the promotion boards.

We need an independent Space Command.

Ron Wanttaja
 
And the Air Force needs to get out of the space business. The ability to fly airplanes, acquire airplanes, and support national policy through air power has no congruency with the need to operate unmanned satellites, acquire spacecraft, and support national policy through space power. You wouldn't put the Air Force in charge of operating attack submarines, and space operations are just as unrelated to the Air Force's traditional mission.

I worked with a lot of fine Air Force engineers in my forty years in the space business; none of them were promoted past Lieutenant Colonel. They didn't have wings, and thus were at a disadvantage against the promotion boards.

We need an independent Space Command.

Ron Wanttaja

You and I both know they would put up a fight on that, and in the end if you get a separate Space Command it'll just be an excuse to spend more for less. Funding a whole new wing of the Pentagon alone would be the biggest debt-driven boondoggle since the creation of DHS.

The only way I could support a separate Space Command is if the ENTIRE startup and new operating budget were guaranteed to be taken from the traditional USAF budget.

And we both know the USAF brass would never let that happen.

Not to mention the problems of unraveling the mess already in place of much of what US Space Command does being involved with non-military budgets and or grey or black budgets for NRO.

Try finding out how much we spend on "space" even today ad you'll never figure it out in your lifetime from published numbers. How you roll that onto a new standalone Space Command budget without being able to even create a correct balance sheet, is something that would take a fleet of accountants and managers just to figure out that part, and they have to be paid out of that chunk they're figuring out if you want it to wash, and become MORE efficient.

No conflict of interest there... (sarcasm in case that's not clear) and I think you'd just pay more for the same end result... because those folks would just play games with the numbers to keep themselves busy for at least ten years. If not twenty.

Just thinking about the difference between your "sounds great on paper" and how it would actually be implemented makes me think it would bankrupt any private entity, and in the case of government just raise our debt by tens of billions of dollars just to do the accounting and startup.

Shiny new buildings with pretty Space Command signs, a fleet of managers, attorneys, and accountants, five-stars losing their minds and demanding no budget of theirs will go down to pay for it. Master Caution, Master Warning, and a slew of Idiot lights just illuminated on my panel as soon as you said "new government agency".

The politicians would salivate too. "A new big building full of indebted workers who'll vote for big government growth for my district..."
 
Certainly good arguments, Nate, but all of that was true in 1947, too, and we still got an independent Air Force out of it. Likely, it'll take a major space war to highlight the inanity of putting Animal Husbandry majors* in charge of space operations.

Ron Wanttaja

* Neither a joke or sarcasm. When I was on active duty operating missile warning satellites, our squadron commander had an animal husbandry degree. But he HAD flown F-51s in Korea, and that was considered close enough.
 
Certainly good arguments, Nate, but all of that was true in 1947, too, and we still got an independent Air Force out of it. Likely, it'll take a major space war to highlight the inanity of putting Animal Husbandry majors* in charge of space operations.

Ron Wanttaja

* Neither a joke or sarcasm. When I was on active duty operating missile warning satellites, our squadron commander had an animal husbandry degree. But he HAD flown F-51s in Korea, and that was considered close enough.

Oh I know nothing stops "progress", certainly not anything like the reality of a budget based upon how much money the government actually takes in, or anything. LOL.

I wonder what the degrees of all the kids living down in the silos with the nice shiny launch keys are.

Death Wears Bunny Slippers...

As usual, remind me not to **** off Wyoming or North Dakota. Both have more nukes underground, each, than the vast majority of countries. Another Space Command budgetary number.

One of my former co-workers in network security used to joke that he knew he needed to get out of the AF and do something else, when he had to politely suggest that one of his fellow USAF members kindly not beat on the nuclear weapon with a hammer. :)

They both knew it wasn't truly dangerous, but it wasn't exactly an approved maintenance technique, either.
 
<rant>
I remember flying into combat in a plane with no gun.
"Don't need 'em." they told us. "It's all stand off and fire missiles."
Except that 75% plus of the missiles totally failed to operate.
Anyone who thinks unmanned aircraft can replace manned aircraft is totally clueless, and not likely bright enough to ever get a clue.
</rant>
Sorry. I don't mean to be cranky, But it's only 8:25 AM and people have already used up the entire day's allotment of stupid.
 
Since we aren't going to a completely unmanned force in any service, you still need a manned Air Force.

UAVs provide limited services in warfare right now. Troops aren't being flown into theater in unmanned C-17s. CSAR and MEDEVAC isn't being provided by unmanned H-60s. UAVs supplement manned CAS, not replace it. No UAVs are engaged in any form of ACM and therefore cannot fulfill a CAP role. Don't know if any UAV capable of performing SEAD right now. UAVs shine at ISR but until they have the same capabilities of manned (MC-12 / RC-12 / U-2), it will be a mixed manned & unmanned role for the foreseeable future. UAV Supply missions are valuable in high threat areas but they still lack the flexibility of their manned counterparts.

Maybe in 50 years we'll be fully unmanned but I doubt the last military pilot has been born yet. The whole manned vs manned debate is nothing new. It's been going on for decades and we're no closer now than we were then.

Robin Olds comments around 20 minutes in. ;)

 
Since we aren't going to a completely unmanned force in any service, you still need a manned Air Force.

UAVs provide limited services in warfare right now. Troops aren't being flown into theater in unmanned C-17s. CSAR and MEDEVAC isn't being provided by unmanned H-60s. UAVs supplement manned CAS, not replace it. No UAVs are engaged in any form of ACM and therefore cannot fulfill a CAP role. Don't know if any UAV capable of performing SEAD right now. UAVs shine at ISR but until they have the same capabilities of manned (MC-12 / RC-12 / U-2), it will be a mixed manned & unmanned role for the foreseeable future. UAV Supply missions are valuable in high threat areas but they still lack the flexibility of their manned counterparts.

Maybe in 50 years we'll be fully unmanned but I doubt the last military pilot has been born yet. The whole manned vs manned debate is nothing new. It's been going on for decades and we're no closer now than we were then.

Robin Olds comments around 20 minutes in. ;)

Translation of the acronyms, please. Not everyone was in the clubhouse with the secret handshake.

thanks.
 
Translation of the acronyms, please. Not everyone was in the clubhouse with the secret handshake.

thanks.

Sorry.

CAS-Close Air Support (A-10 / AH-64)
CSAR-Combat Search And Rescue or Personnel Recovery
CAP-Combat Air Patrol (F-22 / F-15)
ACM-Air Combat Manuvering or "dogfighting"
ISR-Intel Surveillance Reconnaissance (sensor warfare)
UAV / UAS-Unmanned Aerial Vehicle / System
MEDEVAC-Medical Evacuation
SEAD-Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses. Anti-Surface to Air Missiles
 
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UAV - Unmannaed Aerial Vehicle (drone)
CSAR- Combat Search And Rescue
MEDEVAC- if i have to explain this one i quit
CAS- Combat Air Support (A10's killing things on the ground that the AF wants to use new $50 billion air superiority fighters for)
ACM- Air Combat Maneuvering - Dogfighting
CAP - Combat Air Patrol (flying around making sure the bad guys dont sneek in and 'Pearl Harbor' our ass, again)
SEAD - Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (Killing SAM sites and AAA batteries. Best done in a EA6, for cool points)
ISR - Intel, Surveillance, Recon (watching bad guys pick their noses)

edit- too slow by seconds--my definitions are cooler though
 
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What makes you think the Army would be happy to do the Air Force mission? They are just as happy to make a call and get a ride or bomb dropped and not have to do it themselves. The Marines do it all but only because of the size and that can't be duplicated at the size of the Army.
 
The Marines do it all because the 'help' from the other services was found to be unreliable.
It is hard to give quality close air support from 60000 ft.
 
The Marines do it all because the 'help' from the other services was found to be unreliable.
It is hard to give quality close air support from 60000 ft.

Some exaggeration going on there... :rolleyes:
 
60,000' for one, ever hear of the A-10? Ask special operators about AC-130s .
OK, 40000 ft. And the A-10 which the AF keeps trying to get rid of. Just repeating what I hear from my Harrier pilot friends.
 
60,000 or even 40,000 are both way off the mark as providing CAS. Only thing at those altitudes in theater, would be a U-2 or a Global Hawk. Even if you could get a combat load up that high, it would be useless in providing CAS. Not to mention, in the last 2 wars, tactically (threat avoidance) would make no sense.
 
60,000 or even 40,000 are both way off the mark as providing CAS. Only thing at those altitudes in theater, would be a U-2 or a Global Hawk. Even if you could get a combat load up that high, it would be useless in providing CAS. Not to mention, in the last 2 wars, tactically (threat avoidance) would make no sense.

Yeah but V, he "heard" from his Harrier buddies CAS by the USAF was flown at 60K, must be true right? :popcorn:
 
Yeah but V, he "heard" from his Harrier buddies CAS by the USAF was flown at 60K, must be true right? :popcorn:

Well it's possible there was a miss understanding with his friends. I don't know.

The reality is, in the last two wars, AF fixed wing CAS gets down into helo altitudes. I had the AFCENT commander in the back of my aircraft one day and got on to me about my altitude. "I just want to make sure you aren't getting in the way of my fighter guys." I won't tell you our coordination altitude (deconfliction) but it ain't very high.

Of course, their show of force stuff gets low as well. "Attention all rotary-wing aircraft, Dude 11, F-16, conducting show of force along MSR Utah, five hundred and below. I say again..." You better know where you're at or you'll get a face full of AF CAS! :D

These days, most of what they do over there isn't traditional CAS anyway. It's basically a ad hoc, hasty CAS in response to a TIC. The days of A-10 & AH-64 JAAT stuff is good in theory but not so much on a fluid battlefield.

Murphey, that's Troops In Contact (getting shot at) and Joint Air Attack Team. ;)
 
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OK you guys are right, alway right.
But why, starting before WWII did the Marines, get their own planes when the AAF /Navy was there doing a great job? Why did they buy the Harrier?

I still agree with the OP, the AF is for the most part a superfluous, money gobbling machine. Name two missions that could not be done just as well by one of the other branches.
 
OK you guys are right, alway right.
But why, starting before WWII did the Marines, get their own planes when the AAF /Navy was there doing a great job? Why did they buy the Harrier?

I still agree with the OP, the AF is for the most part a superfluous, money gobbling machine. Name two missions that could not be done just as well by one of the other branches.

Same reason why they have helos. The MEU requires those aviation assets in order to prosecute the MAGTF doctrine. Probably the most flexible, complete, war fighting system ever developed.
 
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The Marines do it all because the 'help' from the other services was found to be unreliable.
It is hard to give quality close air support from 60000 ft.

Semper.....
 
I still agree with the OP, the AF is for the most part a superfluous, money gobbling machine. Name two missions that could not be done just as well by one of the other branches.

Obviously you have a hard one for the USAF. You've been proven wrong already, so why you think you're still right on this is beyond me. But, I'll play one more time, then I'm out. How about strategic refueling, strategic bombers, fast deploying tactical fighters (actually quicker than an aircraft carrier not already in theater), air defense of the USA, reconnaissance (U-2, SR-71 in the past) space and satellites (we don't know what kind, classified), CSAR, Combat Controllers, and on and on.

Here's something for you to think about though. You want to save money, why not combine all the services into one, like Canada.
 
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Obviously you have a hard one for the USAF. You've been proven wrong already, so why you think you're still right on this is beyond me. But, I'll play one more time, then I'm out. How about strategic refueling, strategic bombers, fast deploying tactical fighters (actually quicker than an aircraft carrier not already in theater), air defense of the USA, reconnaissance (U-2, SR-71 in the past) space and satellites (we don't know what kind, classified), CSAR, Combat Controllers, and on and on.

You forgot to mention their air traffic controllers are the best out of any branch.
 
OK you guys are right, alway right.
But why, starting before WWII did the Marines, get their own planes when the AAF /Navy was there doing a great job? Why did they buy the Harrier?

I still agree with the OP, the AF is for the most part a superfluous, money gobbling machine. Name two missions that could not be done just as well by one of the other branches.
Golf course maintenance for one!
 
Obviously you have a hard one for the USAF. You've been proven wrong already, so why you think you're still right on this is beyond me. But, I'll play one more time, then I'm out. How about strategic refueling, strategic bombers, fast deploying tactical fighters (actually quicker than an aircraft carrier not already in theater), air defense of the USA, reconnaissance (U-2, SR-71 in the past) space and satellites (we don't know what kind, classified), CSAR, Combat Controllers, and on and on.

Here's something for you to think about though. You want to save money, why not combine all the services into one, like Canada.

Hard on is not the term I would use. I have observed after 20+ years working in aviation maintenance for the DOD that the AF consistently finds the most expensive path to a solution (If it is inexpensive, it can't be good) Whereas the Marines actively work to be good stewards of the taxpayers money.
 
Hard on is not the term I would use. I have observed after 20+ years working in aviation maintenance for the DOD that the AF consistently finds the most expensive path to a solution (If it is inexpensive, it can't be good) Whereas the Marines actively work to be good stewards of the taxpayers money.
I don't care what the leadership says, the Air Force doesn't care about saving money. They care about compliance and control. They want oversight and obedience, not savings.
 
Oh I know nothing stops "progress", certainly not anything like the reality of a budget based upon how much money the government actually takes in, or anything. LOL.

I wonder what the degrees of all the kids living down in the silos with the nice shiny launch keys are.

.

This was harder to find than I thought it should be. More stringent than I remembered.

"3. Specialty Qualifications:

3.1. Knowledge. The following knowledge is mandatory for award of the AFSC indicated:
3.1.1. 13N2/3. Nuclear and missile operations history, organization, mission, and C2 structure; combat crew procedures; targeting; emergency war orders (EWO) concepts and procedures; nuclear codes and code handling procedures; safety, security, and maintenance activities; nuclear and missile operations subsystems; technical order and Air Force policy directive familiarization.
3.2. Education. For entry into this specialty, the following education is mandatory for 5% of initial accessions and highly desirable for the remainder:
3.2.1. 13N1. Undergraduate or graduate academic specialization is highly desirable in Science-Technical-Engineering-Math disciplines to include computer science; electrical, computer, or systems engineering; physics; mathematics; information systems; or information security/assurance. Desirable in physical sciences, administration, or management.
3.2.1.2. Officers not meeting the highly desirable academic specializations shall have a minimum of 12 credit hours (or equivalent) in Science-Technical-Engineering-Math courses.
3.3. Training. The following training is mandatory for award of AFSC indicated:
3.3.1. 13N2. Completion of nuclear and missile combat crew operations Initial Skills Training and unit mission qualification training.
3.3.2. 13N3. Completion of all 13N2 prerequisites and unit nuclear and missile operations combat crew commander upgrade training."

AFSC - Air Force Specialty Code
13N- Nuclear and Missile Operations
AFSC 13N4, Staff
AFSC 13N3, Qualified
AFSC 13N2, Intermediate
AFSC 13N1, Entry

Source: https://www.uc.edu/content/dam/uc/afrotc/docs/UpdatedDocs2013/AFOCD_30Apr13.pdf
 
Name two missions that could not be done just as well by one of the other branches.
Just off the top of my head I'll give you 6:

Air to air
Deep strike
SEAD (Suppresion of enemy air defenses)
Refueling
TAC airlift
Reconnaissance

A2A: USAF has the only dedicated platforms and are hands down the best

Deep Strike: unable from the boat

SEAD: No aircraft that primarily do kinetic SEAD in any other service

Refueling - not enough long runways and ramp space in other services.

TAC airlift - not enough planes

Recon: no specialty aircraft that are required for that mission.

Bigger than all that, talk to a Marine or Navy pilot to see where the service emphasis lies. It's not with aviation. That's the reason you can't successfully expand the other services to get rid of the USAF. You'll have no experts left.
 
Someone needs to grab a can of Corrosion X and spray them Hornets down!:D
 
<rant>
I remember flying into combat in a plane with no gun.
"Don't need 'em." they told us. "It's all stand off and fire missiles."
Except that 75% plus of the missiles totally failed to operate.
Anyone who thinks unmanned aircraft can replace manned aircraft is totally clueless, and not likely bright enough to ever get a clue.
</rant>
Sorry. I don't mean to be cranky, But it's only 8:25 AM and people have already used up the entire day's allotment of stupid.
Rant on my AF brother, you earned the right to do so in my humble but accurate opinion.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 
Just off the top of my head I'll give you 6:

Air to air
Deep strike
SEAD (Suppresion of enemy air defenses)
Refueling
TAC airlift
Reconnaissance

A2A: USAF has the only dedicated platforms and are hands down the best

Deep Strike: unable from the boat

SEAD: No aircraft that primarily do kinetic SEAD in any other service

Refueling - not enough long runways and ramp space in other services.

TAC airlift - not enough planes

Recon: no specialty aircraft that are required for that mission.

Bigger than all that, talk to a Marine or Navy pilot to see where the service emphasis lies. It's not with aviation. That's the reason you can't successfully expand the other services to get rid of the USAF. You'll have no experts left.

Quoted for (mostly) truth, and I'm a Marine. These are things that reside specifically in the Air Force institutionally. Some of them (strat lift), nobody wants to do. Let's also add aviation Command and Control to the list, especially.

I would change "Deep Strike" to "Strategic Bombing" because anything that's not close is deep and everybody can do that just fine. It's the take off from Kansas and drop bombs on Somalia that not everybody can do. I would change Tac lift to strat lift. Both of these are semantics.

The only real qualm I have with the list is SEAD. The Prowler is still kicking in the Marine Corps, but will be gone soon. The real disagreement however, comes with the F18G Growler. It's the best kinetic EW platform out there. The F16CJ is too multi-role to beat the Growler.
 
Quoted for (mostly) truth, and I'm a Marine. These are things that reside specifically in the Air Force institutionally. Some of them (strat lift), nobody wants to do. Let's also add aviation Command and Control to the list, especially.

I would change "Deep Strike" to "Strategic Bombing" because anything that's not close is deep and everybody can do that just fine. It's the take off from Kansas and drop bombs on Somalia that not everybody can do. I would change Tac lift to strat lift. Both of these are semantics.

The only real qualm I have with the list is SEAD. The Prowler is still kicking in the Marine Corps, but will be gone soon. The real disagreement however, comes with the F18G Growler. It's the best kinetic EW platform out there. The F16CJ is too multi-role to beat the Growler.

Oh no you didn't go the A2C2 route! :D Seriously though from a large scale role the AF dominates in that regard. In the day to day battle scenario the Army is quite capable. The task force commander can not only control the sequence of battle from the air, they also have a birds eye view...albeit at a higher risk than their E-3 counterparts. It's not real A2C2 until you can feel the 30 MM from Apaches in the A2C2 platform. ;)

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/a2c2s.htm
 
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