DaleB
Final Approach
To be fair, anything else would be immoral and illegal -- just like a private pilot letting a passenger pay more than half the cost of a flight, right?
Need flight hours
- Thread starter Ryan Haynes
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paflyer
Final Approach
What's your status /goal?
paflyer
Final Approach
That's compensation in the eyes of the FAA...maybe if the pilots pay for the gas that gets them "off the hook"...
Mtns2Skies
Final Approach
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Mtns2Skies
Count me into the VFR Comm boat.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
What was being proposed would be improper even with a commercial pilot certificate and especially with a VFR-only one.
korben88
Line Up and Wait
I see what you're saying, but I was thinking more along the lines of an I'm already going, anyone wanna tag along deal. Here in salt lake we have a ride share page that operates like that. People can post that they are going and have room for others, or they post that they are looking for a ride.
Once I get my license I plan on going to Vegas often (I do now, but I drive) because I have family there. So I wouldn't be flying someone down there as much as I would be offetting the cost for I flight I'd be taking regardless.
And there's nothing illegal with having someone tag along as long the costs are split in a pro-rata format.
Joshuajayg
Line Up and Wait
Smuggle drugs into the U.S. from Mexico. You get 210 and 206 time.
mtuomi
En-Route
Would be a great line in a resume. "800 hours on 206, all international night X/C flying".
Joshuajayg
Line Up and Wait
Don't forget low-level.
korben88
Line Up and Wait
That's what I thought.
Tampico Trauma
Line Up and Wait
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Mauled Formerly known as Tampico Trauma
All they do over my ranches are sketchy ultralights with baskets on the bottom
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midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
I won't comment on a detailed scenario like that but just as a heads-up, be aware the more it happens, the more it starts looking like a charter, and the more likely it becomes for the FAA to learn if it. Apparently, most grey charters are found by real charter folks reporting them. And the FAA tends to be protective of the companies that jump through the extra regulatory hoops, spend the extra bucks, and accept the higher level of direct FAA supervision to get and maintain their operating certificates.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
PM 6PC and offer to fly his "new" Grumman from NC to TX for him.
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Bob Gardner
From an opinion of the Office of the General Counsel:
"This letter is in response to your request for a legal interpretation received on June 9, 2011 regarding private pilot privileges and limitations of 14 CFR § 61.133. In your letter, you present several scenarios and question whether they comply with Part 61. Summary of the scenarios you present, background information, and responses to the questions follow below.
Factual Background
Your first three questions involve a general scenario in which you and your wife are flying from Raleigh, NC to Long Island, NY in your Piper Arrow and receive a pro rata share operating expense reimbursement from your additional passengers. You also write that you understand you are not authorized to engage in common carriage. First, you ask whether you may advertise, on Facebook, the specific time and date that you are travelling to the wedding in order to carry two additional passengers with you to Long Island in exchange for a pro rata reimbursement of the operating expenses. Second, you further state that you then receive a response to your Facebook post described above from two friends that express an interest in travelling to Long Island with you in order to attend a baseball game. You question whether you and your passengers share a "common purpose" in this scenario. Third, you question whether you may post the same information as describe above on a fixed based operator's (FBO) bulletin board instead of on Facebook. Lastly, you pose a general question about receipt of the pro rata expenses through Paypal and whether it is "legal for others besides the pilot to profit on a flight," as Paypal extracts a 3% commission from any fees paid through their service.
Applicable law
Private pilots are prohibited from carrying passengers for compensation or hire with certain exceptions. See 14 CFR § 61.113(a)-(d). Section 61.113(c) allows a private pilot to receive a pro rata reimbursement from his passengers for fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees, so long as the pilot and his passengers share a bona fide common purpose for conducting the flight. See Legal interpretation to Don Bobertz from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (May 18, 2009); Legal interpretation to Guy Mangiamele from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Mar. 4, 2009). Absent a bona fide common purpose, reimbursement for the pro rata share of operating expenses constitutes compensation for the flights, thus requiring a part 119 certificate to conduct commercial operations.1 See Bobertz Interpretation (finding no common purpose when a pilot made nine trips to transport members of a canoe club, three at a time, to a race site because the pilot did not attend the race and the only purpose for conducting the flights was to transport the canoe club).
Though not defined in FAA regulations, common carriage is a common law term.2 Federal courts have developed its definition over many years. See Legal interpretation to Howard Turner from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (2005). Holding out to the public or a segment of the public is the "crucial determination" in deciding if one has engaged in common carriage or not. See Woolsey v. Nat'l Transp. Safety Board, 993 F.2d 516,523 (5th Cir. 1993). The holding out can be accomplished by any "means which communicates to the public that a transportation service is indiscriminately available" to the members of that segment of the public it is designed to attract. See Transocean Airlines, Enforcement Proceeding, 11 C.A.B. at 350 (1950). FAA Advisory Circular 120-12A explains that a holding out may be accomplished through a variety of ways; signs and advertising are the most direct means, but not the only methods. There may also be a holding out without advertising, where a reputation to serve all is sufficient to constitute an offer to carryall customers. Whether or not the holding generates little success is not a factor.
Analysis
1). You question whether advertising, on Facebook, the specific time and date of your trip to your "friends/family/acquaintances" would be acceptable as a private pilot, since you do not consider yourself to be holding out to "the general public." As described above, holding out is accomplished when one communicates to the public, or a segment to the public, that transportation services are indiscriminately available to any person with whom contact is made.
While you offer no additional details about the nature of the post or how large your Facebook audience is, the FAA cautions that this type of advertising may be construed as holding out.
Advertising is not confined to print media, such as magazines or newspapers, and advancing technology allows one to quickly reach a large audience through the electronic communications and internet posts. Additionally, even if you limit the transportation services to a class or segment of the general public (such as Facebook users), it may still be considered holding out if it expresses a willingness to provide transportation for all within this class or segment to the extent of its capacity. Legal interpretation to William A. Dempsay from Donald P. Byrne, Acting Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations and Enforcement (June 5, 1990). Finally, the FAA cannot determine or approve in advance what type of advertising or soliciting are considered a holding out of air transportation service without all available facts concerning a specific situation. See Legal interpretation to Earl H. Simmons, Jr. from Donald P. Byrne, Acting Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations and Enforcement (July 27, 1989) (advising a travel club that the use of mass media, salesmen, travel club brochures, and other forms of advertising or recruitment cannot be approved in advance without all available, specific facts).
I have included a copy of the article "Come Fly With Me," contained in the September/October issue of the FAA Safety Briefing, which may be a helpful reference as it discusses exceptions for private pilots that carry passengers for compensation or hire (archived editions of the FAA Safety Briefing may also be found online at www.faa.gov/news/safety briefing).
2). Second, you question whether you and your passengers share a common purpose if you are travelling to Long Island for a wedding but your passengers express an interest in going to Long Island to attend a baseball game. The existence of a bona fide common purpose is determined on a case-by-case basis. Based on these facts, there appears to be a bona fide common purpose, as the destination was dictated by the pilot, not the passengers, and both you and your passengers have personal business to conduct in Long Island. The purpose of this flight is not merely to transport your passengers to Long Island. See Bobertz Interpretation (explaining that a pilot who planned to attend a race and transported a race team to and from the race site would have a bona fide common purpose with his passengers for those two flights, but not for additional flights conducted in order to transport more team members back and forth); Legal Interpretation to Thomas H. Chero from John H. Cassady, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations and Enforcement (Dec. 26, 1985) (finding no common purpose if the pilot is transporting passengers to a destination where the pilot has no particular business to conduct).
3). You question whether you may post the specific time and date that you are travelling to Long Island on an FBO's bulletin board in order to carry two additional passengers with in exchange for a pro rata reimbursement of the operating expenses. Again, the FAA cautions that this type of advertising may be construed as holding out (see explanation in question 1 above).
4). Lastly, you pose a general question about receipt of the pro rata expenses through Paypal and whether it is "legal for others besides the pilot to profit on a flight" since Paypal extracts a 3% commission from fees submitted through their site. Assuming a bona fide common purpose exists, a pilot may seek pro rata reimbursement from his passengers, not from a third party (such as an employer). See 14 C.F.R. § 61.113(c); Legal Interpretation to Ronald R. Lamb from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Mar. 1, 2010). So long as the pilot does not pay less than his pro rata share of expenses, and only seeks reimbursement from fellow passengers, then the pilot is in compliance with § 61.113(c). Whether or not such payment comes through an online payment system such as Paypal has no bearing on the legality of this situation. However, payment through Paypal would suggest that there is an interest in carrying passengers with whom there is no previous personal relationship and that the offer to accept passengers is being made to the general public (see concerns raised in question 1 above).
We appreciate your patience and trust that the above responds to your concerns. This response was prepared by Nancy Sanchez, an attorney in the Regulations Division of the Office of the Chief Counsel, and was coordinated with the General Aviation and Commercial Division of Flight Standards. Please contact us at (202) 267-3073 if we can be of further assistance."
Bob Gardner (my emphasis)
"This letter is in response to your request for a legal interpretation received on June 9, 2011 regarding private pilot privileges and limitations of 14 CFR § 61.133. In your letter, you present several scenarios and question whether they comply with Part 61. Summary of the scenarios you present, background information, and responses to the questions follow below.
Factual Background
Your first three questions involve a general scenario in which you and your wife are flying from Raleigh, NC to Long Island, NY in your Piper Arrow and receive a pro rata share operating expense reimbursement from your additional passengers. You also write that you understand you are not authorized to engage in common carriage. First, you ask whether you may advertise, on Facebook, the specific time and date that you are travelling to the wedding in order to carry two additional passengers with you to Long Island in exchange for a pro rata reimbursement of the operating expenses. Second, you further state that you then receive a response to your Facebook post described above from two friends that express an interest in travelling to Long Island with you in order to attend a baseball game. You question whether you and your passengers share a "common purpose" in this scenario. Third, you question whether you may post the same information as describe above on a fixed based operator's (FBO) bulletin board instead of on Facebook. Lastly, you pose a general question about receipt of the pro rata expenses through Paypal and whether it is "legal for others besides the pilot to profit on a flight," as Paypal extracts a 3% commission from any fees paid through their service.
Applicable law
Private pilots are prohibited from carrying passengers for compensation or hire with certain exceptions. See 14 CFR § 61.113(a)-(d). Section 61.113(c) allows a private pilot to receive a pro rata reimbursement from his passengers for fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees, so long as the pilot and his passengers share a bona fide common purpose for conducting the flight. See Legal interpretation to Don Bobertz from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (May 18, 2009); Legal interpretation to Guy Mangiamele from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Mar. 4, 2009). Absent a bona fide common purpose, reimbursement for the pro rata share of operating expenses constitutes compensation for the flights, thus requiring a part 119 certificate to conduct commercial operations.1 See Bobertz Interpretation (finding no common purpose when a pilot made nine trips to transport members of a canoe club, three at a time, to a race site because the pilot did not attend the race and the only purpose for conducting the flights was to transport the canoe club).
Though not defined in FAA regulations, common carriage is a common law term.2 Federal courts have developed its definition over many years. See Legal interpretation to Howard Turner from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (2005). Holding out to the public or a segment of the public is the "crucial determination" in deciding if one has engaged in common carriage or not. See Woolsey v. Nat'l Transp. Safety Board, 993 F.2d 516,523 (5th Cir. 1993). The holding out can be accomplished by any "means which communicates to the public that a transportation service is indiscriminately available" to the members of that segment of the public it is designed to attract. See Transocean Airlines, Enforcement Proceeding, 11 C.A.B. at 350 (1950). FAA Advisory Circular 120-12A explains that a holding out may be accomplished through a variety of ways; signs and advertising are the most direct means, but not the only methods. There may also be a holding out without advertising, where a reputation to serve all is sufficient to constitute an offer to carryall customers. Whether or not the holding generates little success is not a factor.
Analysis
1). You question whether advertising, on Facebook, the specific time and date of your trip to your "friends/family/acquaintances" would be acceptable as a private pilot, since you do not consider yourself to be holding out to "the general public." As described above, holding out is accomplished when one communicates to the public, or a segment to the public, that transportation services are indiscriminately available to any person with whom contact is made.
While you offer no additional details about the nature of the post or how large your Facebook audience is, the FAA cautions that this type of advertising may be construed as holding out.
Advertising is not confined to print media, such as magazines or newspapers, and advancing technology allows one to quickly reach a large audience through the electronic communications and internet posts. Additionally, even if you limit the transportation services to a class or segment of the general public (such as Facebook users), it may still be considered holding out if it expresses a willingness to provide transportation for all within this class or segment to the extent of its capacity. Legal interpretation to William A. Dempsay from Donald P. Byrne, Acting Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations and Enforcement (June 5, 1990). Finally, the FAA cannot determine or approve in advance what type of advertising or soliciting are considered a holding out of air transportation service without all available facts concerning a specific situation. See Legal interpretation to Earl H. Simmons, Jr. from Donald P. Byrne, Acting Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations and Enforcement (July 27, 1989) (advising a travel club that the use of mass media, salesmen, travel club brochures, and other forms of advertising or recruitment cannot be approved in advance without all available, specific facts).
I have included a copy of the article "Come Fly With Me," contained in the September/October issue of the FAA Safety Briefing, which may be a helpful reference as it discusses exceptions for private pilots that carry passengers for compensation or hire (archived editions of the FAA Safety Briefing may also be found online at www.faa.gov/news/safety briefing).
2). Second, you question whether you and your passengers share a common purpose if you are travelling to Long Island for a wedding but your passengers express an interest in going to Long Island to attend a baseball game. The existence of a bona fide common purpose is determined on a case-by-case basis. Based on these facts, there appears to be a bona fide common purpose, as the destination was dictated by the pilot, not the passengers, and both you and your passengers have personal business to conduct in Long Island. The purpose of this flight is not merely to transport your passengers to Long Island. See Bobertz Interpretation (explaining that a pilot who planned to attend a race and transported a race team to and from the race site would have a bona fide common purpose with his passengers for those two flights, but not for additional flights conducted in order to transport more team members back and forth); Legal Interpretation to Thomas H. Chero from John H. Cassady, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations and Enforcement (Dec. 26, 1985) (finding no common purpose if the pilot is transporting passengers to a destination where the pilot has no particular business to conduct).
3). You question whether you may post the specific time and date that you are travelling to Long Island on an FBO's bulletin board in order to carry two additional passengers with in exchange for a pro rata reimbursement of the operating expenses. Again, the FAA cautions that this type of advertising may be construed as holding out (see explanation in question 1 above).
4). Lastly, you pose a general question about receipt of the pro rata expenses through Paypal and whether it is "legal for others besides the pilot to profit on a flight" since Paypal extracts a 3% commission from fees submitted through their site. Assuming a bona fide common purpose exists, a pilot may seek pro rata reimbursement from his passengers, not from a third party (such as an employer). See 14 C.F.R. § 61.113(c); Legal Interpretation to Ronald R. Lamb from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Mar. 1, 2010). So long as the pilot does not pay less than his pro rata share of expenses, and only seeks reimbursement from fellow passengers, then the pilot is in compliance with § 61.113(c). Whether or not such payment comes through an online payment system such as Paypal has no bearing on the legality of this situation. However, payment through Paypal would suggest that there is an interest in carrying passengers with whom there is no previous personal relationship and that the offer to accept passengers is being made to the general public (see concerns raised in question 1 above).
We appreciate your patience and trust that the above responds to your concerns. This response was prepared by Nancy Sanchez, an attorney in the Regulations Division of the Office of the Chief Counsel, and was coordinated with the General Aviation and Commercial Division of Flight Standards. Please contact us at (202) 267-3073 if we can be of further assistance."
Bob Gardner (my emphasis)
texasag93
Line Up and Wait
I would suggest getting a job as a lineman at your local airport.
When you are filling up every airplane (and getting paid for it), chat up the pilot. Lots of pilots like showing off their airplanes.
Most will let you get in a little time behind the stick when they take you up and as long as you are rated for that class of airplane, you can log it.
Over time, some may let you take their plane out. I say that, it would take a long time to get to that level. You would also need enough time to qualify under their open pilot insurance provision. Ask them if they are IFR certified and if they ever need a safety pilot, you will do it.
Work for a shop (avionics or A&P) at your field. Do it when they need help for cheap.
Get your A&P.
I am not saying to make your living at it, but if you have extra time, turn it into a second job.
When you are filling up every airplane (and getting paid for it), chat up the pilot. Lots of pilots like showing off their airplanes.
Most will let you get in a little time behind the stick when they take you up and as long as you are rated for that class of airplane, you can log it.
Over time, some may let you take their plane out. I say that, it would take a long time to get to that level. You would also need enough time to qualify under their open pilot insurance provision. Ask them if they are IFR certified and if they ever need a safety pilot, you will do it.
Work for a shop (avionics or A&P) at your field. Do it when they need help for cheap.
Get your A&P.
I am not saying to make your living at it, but if you have extra time, turn it into a second job.
korben88
Line Up and Wait
@bobmrg
Thanks for that article. A lot of almost useful information in there.
It sounds like there is quite a bit of ambiguity from the faa on the subject. IE it's not against the rules per say, but COULD be viewed as holding out and would be judged on a case by case basis.
Reminds my of the ATFs views on 80% ar lower receivers where there are cases where one person was perfectly fine and another was charged with a felony for doing the exact same thing.
Thanks for that article. A lot of almost useful information in there.
It sounds like there is quite a bit of ambiguity from the faa on the subject. IE it's not against the rules per say, but COULD be viewed as holding out and would be judged on a case by case basis.
Reminds my of the ATFs views on 80% ar lower receivers where there are cases where one person was perfectly fine and another was charged with a felony for doing the exact same thing.
Last edited:
Ryan Haynes
Filing Flight Plan
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vflpilot
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mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Go check out Moontown. Friendly folks out there, grass strip, EAA Chapter, and fun. Might hook up w/ someone who will get you some time.
paflyer
Final Approach
Good thing that doesn't apply to government officials.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
Building hours is always difficult early on. The best advice I can give is to hang out at the airport. You never know when you'll find someone who needs a safety pilot or will let you tag along. Even if you tag along for a trip that you can't log, you'll learn a lot. What you really need to do is build experience and get some good learnin' in. Hours are, of course, the obvious focus, but education and hours don't always go hand in hand.
