High DA Airports in Cherokee 140

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
So...as some of you know my dad and I recently got a 1965 Cherokee 140. I love it so far. I am based at KDVT (Deer Valley) in Arizona. It isn't what I would call a great climber, but it gets around quite nicely so far. I only fill to the tabs (36 gallons; full tanks is 50 gallons) and with myself (190 lbs) and a passenger (usually between 110-220lbs) I am at a gross weight of 1927-2037 lbs. Max gross for this plane is 2150 lbs.

Anyways, it worries me because the performance charts only go up to a DA of 7000 ft. I would love to go to Payson (KPAN), but it is at 5,150' and DA is often 7000'+. Runway length is 5500. Performance charts tell me at a gross weight of 2150 (worst case) it would take 3750' to clear a 50 ft obstacle and roughly 1750' for no obstacle. I would go by 50' obstacle in this case though. That just seems like not much margin - 3750' on a 5500' runway. And those are book numbers.

I would love to go to Flagstaff, it is one of the few airports I haven't been to in Northern AZ, but that is often 9000' DA and the performance charts only go to 7000' so it just seems like a bad idea. Just seems like I am going to be missing out on a lot of airports unless I am flying in the flatlands.

I am being ultra conservative, but I don't want to push my luck. What are your guys' opinions on this? Should I just stick to flying in the Phoenix area or airports that are below 7000' DA?

My dad and I have thought about doing the 160HP STC, but that is a whole 'nother topic.
 
Yea I guess my concern is I ahve no way of knowing what the performance is after 7000' DA as the charts stop there. And of course the chart says "extrapolation of chart above 7000 ft is invalid".
 
Make the trip in December or January when the DA is lower due to cold weather. -Skip
 
Go try it out. The extrapolation being invalid is a CYA, you'll get an idea by doing it. And don't go at full gross to a high DA airport for the first time. Take the usual precautions - have an abort point decided and so on.
 
Be conservative. The Cherokee is not a climber. I have flown into Big Bear and Truckee at 6,000+ feet, but only in the winter and trying to keep it light. One time, in Truckee, with two people in the plane, I did have to circle for altitude to clear the ridge. It isn't a good feeling when you are climbing that slowly. One downdraft can get you. The Hershey bar wing doesn't do well at altitude.
 
Yea so you guys think even Payson (KPAN) is a no go unless it is December or January?
 
Depends on your weight. 5500ft runway seems long enough for most days of the year, as long as you don't try to stretch the W&B envelope.
 
mtuomi said:
Depends on your weight. 5500ft runway seems long enough for most days of the year, as long as you don't try to stretch the W&B envelope.
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Yea...looks like I gotta upgrade to the Pilatus.
 
I have a cherokee 180 and live in Denver. Ground is 5500 at my airport. Winter - no problem anywhere. Summer? Let's get real - DA on the ground is 8500! Remember that the charts were invented back in the 60s, at the Piper factory, which was/is pretty much at sea level. If I went exclusively by the charts, I wouldn't fly 4-6 months of the year. Also remember how HP decreases with altitude. At 5500 ft, my 180 HP is really only 160 HP at full power. Higher than 6K, aint no way I can get full power. At 10K under best conditions, I'm running 100 HP @ max power which is really only 70%.

If you're interested, take a pencil and draw the straight line extending past the 7000 ft. Take DA into consideration along with weather, weight, etc. Then make an informed decision.
 
Yea I would feel about 100% more confident in a 180 than the 140...I wouldn't have any reservations about going to Payson in the 180...I used to fly there all the time in the 172 160HP no problem at all. Same with Sedona and Prescott.
 
mtuomi said:
Isn't 140->160 conversion simply a piston change job?
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Yea...it is about 3K to do it...it would probably be well worth it. We need that and the powerflow exhaust, but that is stupid expensive for what it is.
 
CC268 said:
Yea I would feel about 100% more confident in a 180 than the 140...I wouldn't have any reservations about going to Payson in the 180...I used to fly there all the time in the 172 160HP no problem at all. Same with Sedona and Prescott.
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The 172 has a better wing for higher altitudes, as well. It is not just a power thing. My Cherokee didn't want to climb much above 10,000 feet. I did get it close to 12,000 once, but it took a while. I loved my Cherokee, but that is ultimately why I sold it. My dad lives in Big Bear and I like to ski and it just isn't the right plane for high altitude airports. I am sure the 180 HP makes a difference, but still wouldn't be ideal. The Cherokee 140 is a great plane in many ways (good range, good useful load, cheap to fly, etc.), but it is not a great mountain plane.
 
John221us said:
The 172 has a better wing for higher altitudes, as well. It is not just a power thing. My Cherokee didn't want to climb much above 10,000 feet. I did get it close to 12,000 once, but it took a while. I loved my Cherokee, but that is ultimately why I sold it. My dad lives in Big Bear and I like to ski and it just isn't the right plane for high altitude airports. I am sure the 180 HP makes a difference, but still wouldn't be ideal. The Cherokee 140 is a great plane in many ways (good range, good useful load, cheap to fly, etc.), but it is not a great mountain plane.
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That is a good point about the wing itself...did you have a Cherokee 140,160, or 180?
 
John221us said:
The 172 has a better wing for higher altitudes, as well. It is not just a power thing. My Cherokee didn't want to climb much above 10,000 feet. I did get it close to 12,000 once, but it took a while. I loved my Cherokee, but that is ultimately why I sold it. My dad lives in Big Bear and I like to ski and it just isn't the right plane for high altitude airports. I am sure the 180 HP makes a difference, but still wouldn't be ideal. The Cherokee 140 is a great plane in many ways (good range, good useful load, cheap to fly, etc.), but it is not a great mountain plane.
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What do you have now? And I wonder if the Hoerner tips make a huge difference on a Hershey bar Cherokee.
 
CC268 said:
Yea...it is about 3K to do it...it would probably be well worth it. We need that and the powerflow exhaust, but that is stupid expensive for what it is.
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I think it will be closer to 5K with new cylinders. I had a major overhaul on my engine two years ago. I bought all new Lycoming cylinder kits and they were about 1K each. Then you have to add the labor on top of that. I can't say that I saw any real cruise speed increase but it did improve my climb performance.
 
MickYoumans said:
I think it will be closer to 5K with new cylinders. I had a major overhaul on my engine two years ago. I bought all new Lycoming cylinder kits and they were about 1K each. Then you have to add the labor on top of that. I can't say that I saw any real cruise speed increase but it did improve my climb performance.
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How much did it improve your climb performance? Have you flown into any airports over 7000' DA? Trying to get as much feedback on this as possible.
 
MickYoumans said:
I think it will be closer to 5K with new cylinders. I had a major overhaul on my engine two years ago. I bought all new Lycoming cylinder kits and they were about 1K each. Then you have to add the labor on top of that. I can't say that I saw any real cruise speed increase but it did improve my climb performance.
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Did you get the prop repitched?
 
We did not do anything to the prop. It is whatever the standard 0-320 prop is for a PA-28 Cherokee. I think the higher compression cylinders added some extra horsepower. My engine had 2300 hrs on it at rebuild time so I'm sure it was not delivering the full HP an 0-320 normally generates. As I stated in the previous post, I don't think there is any significant increase in cruise speed but I would estimate the climb performance being about 15% better than before. The highest airports I generally fly into are 2000' or less so I can't tell you what to expect at a DA of 7000'. I would not want to give you any misleading guesstimations.
 
Go up by your self when the Wx gets cooler and leave Dvt at tabs. Have breakfast or lunch at PAN and come home. Run the numbers from poh, you,ll be ok. Heavy, ie near gross, and hot affect the 140 the most.
 
gacoon said:
Go up by your self when the Wx gets cooler and leave Dvt at tabs. Have breakfast or lunch at PAN and come home. Run the numbers from poh, you,ll be ok. Heavy, ie near gross, and hot affect the 140 the most.
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But what if I don't want to eat breakfast by myself!?!? Haha...
 
Think I'd be just fine now that it is cooling down.
 
We flew our 140 all over the mountain west when there were just two of us in the family. We do have 160 hp. Fuel to the tabs and light bags was not a problem even in the summer as long as we departed at daybreak. Who wants to fly the mountains in the afternoon during the summer anyway?
 
ircphoenix said:
What do you have now? And I wonder if the Hoerner tips make a huge difference on a Hershey bar Cherokee.
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I went through two failed pre-buys on turbo Arrows and came close to buying a TB-21, but have a few business things slowing me down at the moment. Buying airplanes is tough.
 
mtuomi said:
Then bring your friends:
http://www.gulfstream.com/aircraft/gulfstream-g500

There are things 140hp planes can't do. Hot and high with friends is one of those things :( .
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Sure they can, just depends on how fat you and your pax are, and how much runway and non mountian real estate you have to work with, of course not carrying super excess fuel helps too.

I've gotten to a point now where I default my tanks low and fuel for any X/C so that I'll be landing plus one hour fuel. In the time I've owned my plane, I've yet to top the tanks (long range).
 
CC268 said:
So...as some of you know my dad and I recently got a 1965 Cherokee 140. I love it so far. I am based at KDVT (Deer Valley) in Arizona. It isn't what I would call a great climber, but it gets around quite nicely so far. I only fill to the tabs (36 gallons; full tanks is 50 gallons) and with myself (190 lbs) and a passenger (usually between 110-220lbs) I am at a gross weight of 1927-2037 lbs. Max gross for this plane is 2150 lbs.

Anyways, it worries me because the performance charts only go up to a DA of 7000 ft. I would love to go to Payson (KPAN), but it is at 5,150' and DA is often 7000'+. Runway length is 5500. Performance charts tell me at a gross weight of 2150 (worst case) it would take 3750' to clear a 50 ft obstacle and roughly 1750' for no obstacle. I would go by 50' obstacle in this case though. That just seems like not much margin - 3750' on a 5500' runway. And those are book numbers.

I would love to go to Flagstaff, it is one of the few airports I haven't been to in Northern AZ, but that is often 9000' DA and the performance charts only go to 7000' so it just seems like a bad idea. Just seems like I am going to be missing out on a lot of airports unless I am flying in the flatlands.

I am being ultra conservative, but I don't want to push my luck. What are your guys' opinions on this? Should I just stick to flying in the Phoenix area or airports that are below 7000' DA?

My dad and I have thought about doing the 160HP STC, but that is a whole 'nother topic.
Click to expand...
Years ago I flew a 140 Cherokee at sealevel with my wife in it.( 110 lbs. ) I agree that it was no climber but rather very slow to gain altitude. I can't imagine flying it in the mountains . I'll pass.
 
So I've talked to some people here in AZ who have actually flown 140s a lot and have experience flying them here in the AZ mountains. As long as it is cool and I keep it light there should be no issues. Talked to the previous owner who took this thing to Payson all the time and he is a big dude.
 
One thing to add: work your way up to the higher DAs. Try out 5,000 before you try 8,000. The airplane behaves much differently. Keep the nose down until it is really ready to climb.
 
You need to leave plenty of margin. For what is not published in the POH charts you are a TEST PILOT. Read some books on mountain flying and take a course. Don't fly in high DA mountain areas when winds are 25kts+ at ridge lines. You can get into situations where you cannot out climb downdrafts and you will be pushed into terrain. Go with an experienced mountain flying CFI and load up to MGW at high DA and get an idea of how the plane performs. Learn to lean for best power during your runup at high DA airports. If not at 70% of Vr by halfway down the runway abort takeoff. There are a lot of general rules of thumb- Google is your friend.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
You need to leave plenty of margin. For what is not published in the POH charts you are a TEST PILOT. Read some books on mountain flying and take a course. Don't fly in high DA mountain areas when winds are 25kts+ at ridge lines. You can get into situations where you cannot out climb downdrafts and you will be pushed into terrain. Go with an experienced mountain flying CFI and load up to MGW at high DA and get an idea of how the plane performs. Learn to lean for best power during your runup at high DA airports. If not at 70% of Vr by halfway down the runway abort takeoff. There are a lot of general rules of thumb- Google is your friend.
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I think maybe I was a little decieving by my first post. A lot of my training and solo cross country flying was in a 172N (160HP) to all the mountain airports here in AZ (besides Flagstaff). I would never fly into any airport with high winds like that, nor would I ever be a position where I would be flying in canyons, close to ridge lines, etc...so I totally know where your coming from. Going with a CFI to some of these mountain airports is probably a good idea like you mention. I always lean to best power during runup at these airports as well. Good note on the 70% of VR by halfway point.
 
CC268 said:
So I've talked to some people here in AZ who have actually flown 140s a lot and have experience flying them here in the AZ mountains. As long as it is cool and I keep it light there should be no issues. Talked to the previous owner who took this thing to Payson all the time and he is a big dude.
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1. It's good you're being careful
2. Run your numbers just like you did and be aware
3. Take your dad to Payson, you won't be full fuel departing Payson if you were full leaving DVT.
4. If you're not wheels up by the midway point of the runway, then abort the takeoff.
5. Only take on fuel to the tabs on both legs rather then max fuel would be even better then #3 above
6. If windy, with chance of downdrafts, pick an alternate day
7. Someday you're going to encounter LLWS at 100-150 AGL on takeoff. Mother nature is a real ***** - both of my encounters were at night on takeoff .
8. You'll find a rotor someday as well, my encounter resulted in me taking some unusual recoveries, spins and light acro in a Pitts from a CFI friend

During PPL training with my CFI in a 152 here in El Paso, DA would be 7500-8500 during summer mid afternoon. He'd insist MTOW (all of 14 gallons) and then we'd slog around with 100 FPM climbs nearing zero with downdrafts ... he'd call for a go-around just after the mains made contact, and the 152 would settle a second time on the runway before anemically climbing. He wanted me to see/experience all this with him ... 3pm flights in summer here are brutally horrible. He made sure to get a several windy days that weren't the easy ones included ... am glad he trained in this method.
 
I owned and flew a Cherokee 140 for a decade and know the plane well.
Don't do it unless you like the idea of burning to death in a crumpled ball of aluminum somewhere off the departure end of the runway.
With density altitude of 9000' on a hot day, I'd want 6500' of runway minimum and a good headwind straight down the runway. And that's with the tires aired up to the max p.s.i. and be certain the brake pads aren't dragging (Cherokees are notorious for the parking brake / handbrake master cylinder sticking and holding a little bit of hydraulic pressure.

Try climbing up to 9000' MSL on a standard day or warmer with the plane loaded like you'd expect... level off, then see what kind of rate of climb you get when you push in full throttle and pitch up for ~80 mph. That's what you're gonna get trying to takeoff from such an airport on a 9000' DA day, and it's gonna eat up a lot of runway before you get to takeoff speed. Rule of thumb is if you're not up to 75% of takeoff speed when you reach the halfway mark down the runway... abort the takeoff and wait for better conditions.

What you need is a shiny little red & white nimble Van's RV-6 ;-)
And I know where you can find one ;-)
 
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