Requesting input - Extended SF Bay Tour

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All,

While I've been flying in the bay area for my entire flying career, there are a couple of things I have never actually done:

(1) fly the bay tour; and
(2) fly above the bay between SFO and OAK.

I donated a flight to charity and will be taking a couple of folks up in the next few weeks for sightseeing, and I think it's time to tackle some of these. I want to do it first on my own, but I have some questions.

I would love feedback from those of you that have done either or both of these two things.

Flying between SOF and OAK

This seems simple enough. Coming from the north and already established with Norcal on comm, looks like I can take a route at 2000 ft, keeping me under the Bravo shelf on the west and to the west of OAK itself. The route would be entering above the bay bridge, then fly hugging the outer limit of the SFO Bravo core while staying such that OAK's runways are to my left, cross over the San Mateo bridge and down over the Dumbarton.

I'll be in OAK's Charlie, clearly, but that doesn't require clearance.

Right? is there something I should know about this that I am missing? I found some comments online alluding to "the core of OAK" being a "no-fly zone" in the context of requiring clearance that's never given, but I can't find anything to back that up.

Flying the Bay Tour from the South

That's pretty much what all the information online talks about. If I decide to go the above route and then swing around the go up through the tour, when would it be suggested I ask for the Bravo clearance? when I get over the Dumbarton? before? after?

Flying the Bay Tour from the NORTH

I cannot find any information online for doing it the other way around - that is, entering from the North. Is there a reason for this? is it not allowed? if it is allowed, when would one typically ask about Bravo clearance to do the tour? what sort of altitude to they assign for this version if they do allow it? is it more or less the same corridor (between 110 and 280)?

Appreciate input from those experienced in these routes.

Thanks in advance, all.
 
I've heard that NorCal doesn't allow OAK transitions, too, but in my experience, it has only been denied once, and that was because a 777 crashed at SFO and closed the airport with hundreds of flights enroute. They WILL give you a path to follow, though, generally follow 880 or fly direct Coliseum or Mormon Temple. They will want you well clear of rwy 12/30 extended centerlines.

Crossing the bay north of the Bay Bridge is normal and not at all problematic.

Is this a part 91 charitable sightseeing flight? If not, you can get around any possible Oakland issues by taking in a landing at Oakland. Though they really aren't the big bad nasty people some local flight instructors think they are.

You will not get a B clearance over the Bay southwest of SFO at all, and when you do get one elsewhere, it will be much closer to the surface area boundary. I don't suggest trying a higher shelf unless you're west of the mountains.

Entering from the north is pretty much wide open. Just ask. You may need to duck under the 2000 foot shelf, and if you're talking to Oakland Center (San Pablo Bay), you may need to ask them to hand you off to NorCal first. Watch out for Giants games. They are seriously in the way.
 
Hey,
I've never seen anyone flying between SFO and OAK, if you come from the north and wanna do a fly over SF (Alcatraz and etc...) it's not a problem, they usually ask you to stay below Bravo (3000ft) and stay north of the Bay Bridge,
when you want to head south, usually you might get a Bravo Clarence if you stick to the ocean shorline. flying south next to Oakland is usually east of OAK and the Berkley "Stadium" mark on the chart, you will have to be lower than 4000ft. when you are touring above golden gate you should request the controller if possible to head south and get a Bravo Clarence, it usually depends in how busy they are.
 
So...this is my experience, with a couple dozen Bay tours.

There are a few landmarks you should be aware of.
  1. 101 (Bayshore) Freeway. Typical Bravo clearance going either north or south along the peninsula will be "South and West of the Bayshore Freeway". If you're with NorCal, you'll be put at either 3500' or 4500' typically. If you stay with the towers, you'll be at 1500' to 2000'.
  2. Bay Bridge. On the north side, the typical instruction is to remain outside of the Bravo and stay north of the Bay Bridge.
  3. 880 Freeway. Coming south on the Oakland side, typical paths will have you outside the Bravo and east of 880. Often the instruction will be to follow it.
  4. Oakland Colosseum. On an Oakland transition, you'll typically be asked to fly at 2000' to the Colosseum.
  5. 30 Numbers. Again, on the Oakland transition, you'll typically be asked to fly 2000' or 1400' directly over the 30 numbers at the end of the big runway at OAK.
  6. San Mateo Bridge. Continuing with the Oakland transition, they'll stick you at 1400' and send you to VPMID.
  7. San Jose Airport. You didn't indicate where you're starting from. If it's RHV, you'll be asked to fly across the SJC runways at the mid point on your way to the peninsula.
If you're departing from any of the towered airports directly around the Bay, let Ground know you want the Bay Tour (except Napa, they won't help you since they're covered by Oakland Center). You'll usually get set up with a code and they set your destination with a junk destination that all the NorCal and Local controllers know to mean Bay Tour (I don't remember what it was, but I remember thinking it was clever when I heard it.) Usually, but not always, they're aware you want the Bravo and will provide you a clearance with some buffer before you bust. But know where the boundaries are! A particularly annoying spot is the triangle made with 101 and Stanford Stadium. If you're with NorCal, you'll be high enough to bust the Bravo if you're following 101 closely. I aim for Stanford Stadium when going north to avoid accidentally busting that little section. Be ready any time you're close to turn a 360 if you have no clearance yet.

Let's see...other useful points:
  • Millbrae BART station. You'll be asked to circle south of there if they need you to avoid departing jets.
  • Candlestick. Same thing when coming from the north. They'll have you circle there until there's a gap, if needed.
  • Sunken Ship. Useful point when making the Oakland transition.
  • 280 Freeway. Sometimes you'll be asked to be South and West of 280 instead of 101.
The mid-Bay transition you suggest exists, but it's extremely rare to get it, hard to fly correctly, and makes me uncomfortable to be over that much water at only around 1500'. I've flown it all of once, when the regular Oakland transition was unavailable for some reason I no longer remember. It's also nowhere are scenic as either the Oakland transition route or the peninsula route.

From the north, the peninsula route is the same, though typically they'll want you at 4500' instead of 3500'. But I've gotten both, so YMMV. The problem is that the airports you'd start from to the north are generally under Oakland Center and can't set you up like airports in NorCal can. You'll need to wait until Center hands you off to NorCal, then make the request with them. I've found they're stingier with the clearance from the north because there's less time from where they pick you up to the Bravo wall. From the south, they've been guiding you the whole way, so you're generally well set up for the clearance. I still usually get the clearance, it's just more work. Be ready for an Oakland transition, or to just give up and head all the way to the Livermore valley. That's what they'll offer you if they say no. You can, of course, head under the Bravo along the coast, but it's really easy to get caught under a marine layer, preventing a VFR return over the hills. I've had to fly all the way to Salinas to get back!

It's worth it, though. So pretty.

https://arnoha.smugmug.com/Airplanes/Nut-Tree/n-tB9br/
https://arnoha.smugmug.com/Airplanes/Interns-2015/n-7H2x95/

And yes, that was VFR. Remember: Bravo, clear of clouds. :D
 
...hugging the outer limit of the SFO Bravo core...
I prefer to leave a one mile buffer around bravo boundaries. While GPS is pretty accurate, there's no such thing as exact, and I don't know how accurate the radar readout of my position is.
 
So...this is my experience, with a couple dozen Bay tours.

There are a few landmarks you should be aware of.
  • Sunken Ship. Useful point when making the Oakland transition.
And yes, that was VFR. Remember: Bravo, clear of clouds. :D

I was flying from Hayward Executive to San Carlos and was told by Hayward ATC not to turn before the sunken ship.
I could not find the sunken ship that was shown on my TAC.
It was a clear afternoon and I was at about 1,000 feet AGL.
According to my magnetic heading out of Hayward Executive I should have passed directly over it.
It there a trick to seeing the Sunken Ship?
I ended up talking to Moffett Field and Palo Alto before San Carlos.
I felt ATC was not very helpful at Moffett and Palo Alto.
I found it disquieting being lost that close to Bravo.
 
It's charted with a glyph that looks kinda like a sinking ship. I haven't had any trouble finding it; it's a normal departure from Palo Alto when transiting Oakland. Perhaps if there were a very high high tide?

It's roughly six miles DUE south (course 180M) from HWD.

If you transition at 1400, you can go direct. Sounds like you were at 2000, not 1000. At that altitude, you have to go around the 1500 floor.
 
I was flying from Hayward Executive to San Carlos and was told by Hayward ATC not to turn before the sunken ship.
I could not find the sunken ship that was shown on my TAC.
It was a clear afternoon and I was at about 1,000 feet AGL.
According to my magnetic heading out of Hayward Executive I should have passed directly over it.
It there a trick to seeing the Sunken Ship?
I ended up talking to Moffett Field and Palo Alto before San Carlos.
I felt ATC was not very helpful at Moffett and Palo Alto.
I found it disquieting being lost that close to Bravo.

I believe this is it:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5531453,-122.1575368,206m/data=!3m1!1e3

Both tide and lighting make a big difference as to whether it's easy to spot. It is NOT lit. (Why don't ships hit it at night?) It's almost centered between the bridges and the coasts, so I visually find both coasts, both bridges (Dumbarton and San Mateo) and find the visual center. From there, a little scanning usually finds it.

It's charted with a glyph that looks kinda like a sinking ship. I haven't had any trouble finding it; it's a normal departure from Palo Alto when transiting Oakland. Perhaps if there were a very high high tide?

It's roughly six miles DUE south (course 180M) from HWD.

If you transition at 1400, you can go direct. Sounds like you were at 2000, not 1000. At that altitude, you have to go around the 1500 floor.

Going south, they'll often still direct you to the sunken ship (and then often the cement plant) so that you're in a good spot for approach to 30 at SQL.
 
I believe this is it:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5531453,-122.1575368,206m/data=!3m1!1e3

Both tide and lighting make a big difference as to whether it's easy to spot. It is NOT lit. (Why don't ships hit it at night?) It's almost centered between the bridges and the coasts, so I visually find both coasts, both bridges (Dumbarton and San Mateo) and find the visual center. From there, a little scanning usually finds it.



Going south, they'll often still direct you to the sunken ship (and then often the cement plant) so that you're in a good spot for approach to 30 at SQL.

It's also charted on the nautical charts, and is WAY outside shipping lanes, in marked 1-2 feet of "mean lower low" water, on a charted shoal. Mean high water is about 7 feet higher. No ship of any size is going to hit it without grounding first.

It's not in the center of the Bay. It's more east than west.
 
It's also charted on the nautical charts, and is WAY outside shipping lanes, in marked 1-2 feet of "mean lower low" water, on a charted shoal. Mean high water is about 7 feet higher. No ship of any size is going to hit it without grounding first.

It's not in the center of the Bay. It's more east than west.

You're right about that. I just use the visual center trick as a starting point if I'm having trouble finding it. I definitely had trouble when I was learning to fly, though now that I know what to look for, I don't lose it anymore.
 
Thank you, it was high tide.

I don’t like flying over water so I intended to follow the Dumbarton Bridge where the bay narrows but when I missed the sunken ship I began to doubt what I was seeing.

I had trouble relating the shape of the bay to the chart and felt uncertain of the landmarks on the TAC.

I intended to stay just north of Palo Alto’s Delta but when I called they said I was closer to Moffitt so I called Moffitt and when I told them I was lost and my intentions to fly to SQL they told me to call Palo Alto. Palo Alto told me to call San Carlos even though I made them aware I was lost.

San Carlos was helpful with landmarks and headings; it all worked out.
 
Dumbarton Bridge is not a good choice, as much of Palo Alto's departing traffic will be right into your face. If you must transition the PAO airspace, use the train bridge immediately south of Dumbarton inbound, or stay at least a mile north.

If you were closer to Moffett than Palo Alto over the Bay when you called Palo Alto initially, you busted Class D.

Flight following across the Bay is not fun. You get a constant stream of wake turbulence warnings.
 
Dumbarton Bridge is not a good choice, as much of Palo Alto's departing traffic will be right into your face. If you must transition the PAO airspace, use the train bridge immediately south of Dumbarton inbound, or stay at least a mile north.

If you were closer to Moffett than Palo Alto over the Bay when you called Palo Alto initially, you busted Class D.

Flight following across the Bay is not fun. You get a constant stream of wake turbulence warnings.

Thank you; that is the kind of local knowledge that would have helped.

I asked at Hayward Executive and a local pilot told me it was easy and suggested the Dumbarton Bridge and using the sunken ship as a landmark.

It seemed simple enough as it was not that far.

I did come very close to Moffett’s airspace but was still outside it and that is why they told me to call Palo Alto after I told them my intentions to fly to San Carlos.

I used to live in Redwood City so I was familiar with the Bay Area on a Motorcycle but not from the air.

I don’t like being lost and it was not my finest hour.

Part of my lost procedure is to climb higher but that was not an option in this situation.
 
I did my IFR X/C to OAK from MYF, and on departure my CFII asked norcal for a bay tour, and the VERY helpful controller told us to take our time climbing to our assigned altitude and gave us some helpful vectors that took us over a few of the cool landmarks (alcatraz, angel island and the golden gate). Was a sunday early afternoon, and they were super slow.
 
You got a Bay Tour while IFR? How did that work?

I'll bet the landmarks looked really good from under the hood....

That's a really long IFR XC, more than twice the minimum distance.
 
Another view of the sunken ship:

15394486646_2066f3d117_b.jpg
 
You got a Bay Tour while IFR? How did that work?

I'll bet the landmarks looked really good from under the hood....

That's a really long IFR XC, more than twice the minimum distance.

CFII took pics while I was under the hood.. It was fun to do a long trip, got to experience different wx, airspace, and longer range flight planning. Before that trip, my longest x/c was from MYF to HND
 
CFII took pics while I was under the hood.. It was fun to do a long trip, got to experience different wx, airspace, and longer range flight planning. Before that trip, my longest x/c was from MYF to HND

Man, what a jerk! That's a fabulous view he didn't let you have.

The least he could have done was to take your three approaches on the way inbound to Oakland (you can do them all at Oakland legally and it has a bit of everything). Then you could fly the bay tour and return VFR or shoot a popup approach into Half Moon Bay and return IFR (gotta use the cell phone at KHAF, though).
 
Man, what a jerk! That's a fabulous view he didn't let you have.

The least he could have done was to take your three approaches on the way inbound to Oakland (you can do them all at Oakland legally and it has a bit of everything). Then you could fly the bay tour and return VFR or shoot a popup approach into Half Moon Bay and return IFR (gotta use the cell phone at KHAF, though).


HAHAHAH, she's pretty awesome to fly with and easy on the eyes. It was a fun flight for sure, got to see my girlfriend at the time, and CFII and her friend got a weekend in the bay area on my dime :)
 
Thank you; that is the kind of local knowledge that would have helped.

I asked at Hayward Executive and a local pilot told me it was easy and suggested the Dumbarton Bridge and using the sunken ship as a landmark.

It seemed simple enough as it was not that far.

I did come very close to Moffett’s airspace but was still outside it and that is why they told me to call Palo Alto after I told them my intentions to fly to San Carlos.

I used to live in Redwood City so I was familiar with the Bay Area on a Motorcycle but not from the air.

I don’t like being lost and it was not my finest hour.

Part of my lost procedure is to climb higher but that was not an option in this situation.

Yeah, if you lose SA while under the Bravo in the Bay Area, you don't have much time to figure it out before you're busting someone's airspace. It's definitely a challenging place to fly. There's a few airspaces that are more complex (LA and NYC come to mind) but not many.

The bump to SQL was deliberate. The basic behavior for the local towers is to push you as far forward into your plan as possible if there is no conflicting traffic. So, though it felt brusque, they were actually telling you there is no traffic in front of you and trying to get you talking to the final tower as quick as possible.

The funny part is that most people I've talked to think that SQL and HWD compete for the least friendly tower in the Bay. Only one data point, but the only person I've witnessed violated on the frequency was at SQL on tower. Glad they helped you.
 
The only real gripe I've had with HWD is that there is no possibility of flying a practice missed approach. Kinda understandable given where it goes. SQL gets really busy sometimes.

But I'm flying in to SQL for Airport Day on Saturday. We'll see how it goes.

I've witnessed a whole bunch of people getting yelled at on various Oakland frequencies for B and C busts. HWD hasn't been a big deal except for the insanely low TPA. The only airport I've ever gotten yelled at myself is RHV, when Tower gave me a taxi clearance they hadn't intended to, and Ground thought I just blasted through.
 
don't wanna hijack the thread but I've been looking at the bay area and hope to fly it when I head out to SF. I'm looking at petaluma to haf. I understand it's busy airspace, but I don't see anything super complicated. unless norcal throws some weird shiznit at me, I envision just calling up, getting FF after departing O69 to HAF by way of alcatraz, the GG bridge and down the coast, remaining outside of bravo at all times. what am I missing?
 
Depending on the time of year and the time of day, getting in and out of HAF VFR can be a problem. Afternoons tend to be the best time of day, and winter the best time of year (when it's not stormy).
 
What @Palmpilot said. And, you may need to ask for a Bravo clearance to transition from Petaluma to Half Moon Bay. There's a cut-out by the coast that has a 1500 foot floor. The cloud tops are often 1500-2000 there as the moisture rolls over the hills into Pacifica and Daly City, even when KHAF is clear.
 
Ask for the B clearance. You'll probably get it, and it means you don't have to fly offshore at low altitude. There is one few mile segment south of Pacifica with no survivable emergency landing sites.
 
don't wanna hijack the thread but I've been looking at the bay area and hope to fly it when I head out to SF. I'm looking at petaluma to haf. I understand it's busy airspace, but I don't see anything super complicated. unless norcal throws some weird shiznit at me, I envision just calling up, getting FF after departing O69 to HAF by way of alcatraz, the GG bridge and down the coast, remaining outside of bravo at all times. what am I missing?

What they said. KHAF is a major challenge VFR most days. You can sometimes sneak in under the layer and under the Bravo, but damn if the Pacific Ocean isn't COLD. I've done it, but it's not my favorite thing. MAKG is correct that there are a few miles where there's nowhere to go. If you go in the drink, you'll either die of hypothermia if you stay out or get smashed on the rocks if you try to swim in.

Do get the Bravo clearance and let them know where you're going. They'll put you at least at 3500', so you'd be above any marine layer. In other words, VFR, you're only going if the sky is clear. Also, if you do go, the clouds are highly changeable, so if you're VFR-only, keep an eye on the ocean. If you see the clouds coming in, get the hell out of Dodge before you're locked in. Generally, there will be clouds in the morning and evening, with a variable window during the afternoon that's open, but don't bank on it.

So, except for the HAF part, all else you said sounds reasonable. I'd get FF no matter what, as that sky is compact and busy. Everyone wants to see the same things and fly in the same places. And they're all tooling around down low in circles, so cruise altitudes aren't a thing.
 
I have tried and failed to reach Half Moon Bay six times and each time I was turned back by the fog.

I called the AWOS at HAF before I left San Carlos or Watsonville and it had it as clear or at least a reasonable ceiling and when I arrived at HAF it was below my minimums.

I love watching the fog roll in even though it scrubs my mission.

I feel it is a particularly beautiful part of the world.
 
I have tried and failed to reach Half Moon Bay six times and each time I was turned back by the fog.

I called the AWOS at HAF before I left San Carlos or Watsonville and it had it as clear or at least a reasonable ceiling and when I arrived at HAF it was below my minimums.

I love watching the fog roll in even though it scrubs my mission.

I feel it is a particularly beautiful part of the world.
What time of year, and what time of day were your attempts?
 
Summer and around noon to late afternoon over several years.
Yeah, right time of day, but even in the afternoon, your odds are much better during the cooler parts of the year. In the summer, rising air due to heating in the central valley draws the marine layer on shore. The weather pattern reverses during winter, with tule fog forming in the central valley and clear weather being more likely along the coast.
 
Yeah, right time of day, but even in the afternoon, your odds are much better during the cooler parts of the year. In the summer, rising air due to heating in the central valley draws the marine layer on shore. The weather pattern reverses during winter, with tule fog forming in the central valley and clear weather being more likely along the coast.

I fly out of Santa Maria, California and we have similar weather patterns.
I had a friend who used to fly out of HAF and I wanted to visit him as long as I was up in the Bay Area and I heard they had a nice restaurant.
Half Moon Bay was never my primary destination.
 
I fly out of Santa Maria, California and we have similar weather patterns.
I had a friend who used to fly out of HAF and I wanted to visit him as long as I was up in the Bay Area and I heard they had a nice restaurant.
Half Moon Bay was never my primary destination.
I haven't spent a great deal of time in your area, but I have noticed that Oceano (L52) seems to be a lot more difficult to get into than other airports in the area. From your experience, will I likely have better luck in the winter?
 
I haven't spent a great deal of time in your area, but I have noticed that Oceano (L52) seems to be a lot more difficult to get into than other airports in the area. From your experience, will I likely have better luck in the winter?
The coastal fog is often a challenge at L52.

Oceano is a charming airport with camping and you can often hear the surf from the runway.

There are lots of places to eat and sleep within walking distance.

Winter is a better time than summer but it is still very much hit or miss.

I fly from SMX to SBP (San Luis Obispo) for lunch often and it is not unusual to see the fog come back in on my way back early afternoon.

It is not unusual for the fog to come in so fast that people get stuck there.

The fog doesn’t usually go all the way to the ground but I have seen ceilings at 200 feet.

There are no published instrument procedures for L52.

The runway is 2,325 feet long and the winds can be a little tricky with turbulence midfield.
 
I haven't spent a great deal of time in your area, but I have noticed that Oceano (L52) seems to be a lot more difficult to get into than other airports in the area. From your experience, will I likely have better luck in the winter?

L52 also doesn't have any instrument approaches. KHAF has two good ones (LPV) and two more OK ones. And on a good day, meat bombs are factor.

Weather at KHAF is often far worse than any other airport in the region, including KSFO and KSQL (both ~10 miles away). It is MUCH worse than either KSMX or KSBP. Those compare to Salinas -- they get significant marine layer, but have substantial clear times almost every day (and useful TAFs). Richard, I guess you never did encampment O-rides. That's the stomping grounds.
 
don't wanna hijack the thread but I've been looking at the bay area and hope to fly it when I head out to SF. I'm looking at petaluma to haf. I understand it's busy airspace, but I don't see anything super complicated. unless norcal throws some weird shiznit at me, I envision just calling up, getting FF after departing O69 to HAF by way of alcatraz, the GG bridge and down the coast, remaining outside of bravo at all times. what am I missing?

Actually, from Petaluma, KHAF is a pretty straight shot and you don't need to dogleg your path much at all to avoid the bravo.

If you recall, that was the exact route the Monkey (capitalized because it's now a proper name) took on his very first flight in an airplane. Technically it was his second but he had to get to KHAF.
 
L52 also doesn't have any instrument approaches. KHAF has two good ones (LPV) and two more OK ones. And on a good day, meat bombs are factor.

Weather at KHAF is often far worse than any other airport in the region, including KSFO and KSQL (both ~10 miles away). It is MUCH worse than either KSMX or KSBP. Those compare to Salinas -- they get significant marine layer, but have substantial clear times almost every day (and useful TAFs). Richard, I guess you never did encampment O-rides. That's the stomping grounds.
Which are the stomping grounds? You mentioned a lot of airports in that post!
 
Which are the stomping grounds? You mentioned a lot of airports in that post!

Encampment is at Camp SLO, so the base of operations is KSBP. O-ride destinations are usually KSMX and KPRB. And there are so many rides (we did over 200 in two days this year) that there really aren't alternatives.

Honestly, I would have preferred to go to Oceano. I like to do first flights between a towered and nontowered airport, so the cadets experience both; airport (pattern and ground) operations are the focus of the first syllabus. But the routes were programmed due to the sheer number of aircraft in the air.
 
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