How do I figure out approach course?

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rookie1255

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rookie1255
KART VOR RWY 7

Question 1

Coming from the SYR VOR and turning at WUMSO intersection I would have a course of 053 on the 233 radial. Do I still have the final approach course of 043 tuned in the OBI the entire time and intercept it, or do I keep the R223 radial tuned in and retune to 043 after crossing the VOR?

Question 2

If I'm coming from the South and want to use the ART VOR as my IAF, how do I turn after crossing the VOR to get on the outbound for the procedure turn?
 
Turn the OBS (and adjust your course) from 053 to 043 while/after crossing the VOR.

If coming from the south, ATC will most likely only clear you to the SYR VOR. Or they could vector you if requested. If vectored, you can skip the PT. For all practical purposes you would never be cleared to ART if SYR is "on the way". But, if you did go direct ART, you'd fly to the VOR, turn right and intercept the outbound course, do the PT, and fly back inbound.

My suggestion: just take the SYR IAF.
 
That is an interesting approach. So the way you are saying, EdFred, makes sense since SYR is an IAF. Fly the 010 radial from SYR to WUMSO, fly the 233 radial inbound to ART, then over ART, fly the 043 from ART to land or missed at 2.3 DME/timed .
 
rookie1255 said:
KART VOR RWY 7

Question 1

Coming from the SYR VOR and turning at WUMSO intersection I would have a course of 053 on the 233 radial. Do I still have the final approach course of 043 tuned in the OBI the entire time and intercept it, or do I keep the R223 radial tuned in and retune to 043 after crossing the VOR?
Click to expand...

Ed did a good job of answering your question, but I wanted to make sure that you realize you would never have the R223 radial (or the R233 for that matter) set in your OBS coming from SYR - WUMSO. You'd have the reciprocal of that, the 043 course set after crossing the VOR. Before that, you'd have the 053 course on your OBS.

This is a good approach to go over with your CFI, especially if you aren't yet clear on how to set the OBS to get what you want.

Turns at the FAF are not that uncommon, you may run across them again. The maximum turn for a VOR at the FAF is 30 degrees, which does require you to be on your game a little bit as you cross the FAF, turn, twist the CDI, start descending, start the clock, etc.
 
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Stupid question here to make sure I understand this approach correctly....

So there are really 2 paths to take to head to the FAF (ART VOR):

So if coming from the south SYR>WUMSO>tun to 053 off of ART>ART> turn to 043 to runway

And if coming from the north ART>turn to 223 outbound> procedure turn> tune to 043> ART> continue tuned to 043 to runwy

Is all that correct?

I have never seen one like this, although I guess I don't shoot a ton of VOR approaches because I hate the lack of sensitivity they offer. Is there a lot of other approaches like this with 2 paths to the FAF or is fairly uncommon?

Neat approach, @rookie1255 thanks for asking a question about it!
 
Neil. Pretty much. No different than a "T" GPS approach, really. You've got 3 IAFs for those.
 
The "two paths to the FAF" thing is pretty uncommon, no surprise you haven't seen it before. Here's another one:

Delta, UT, KDTA VOR RWY 35:
https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1609/pdf/00113V35.PDF

Basically the same situation as at KART.

But I should clarify, based on reading Ed's post after I typed this one up. There are thousands of examples of multiple IAFs, like every GPS with a T configuration. What is rare about KART and KDTA is that they have more than one intermediate segment. (With a procedure turn, the intermediate segment is the inbound part of the PT, when you are aligned on the PT course prior to the FAF.)
 
Yea it was the multiple intermediate segments that was confusing me. Thanks guys.
 
EdFred said:
...........................But, if you did go direct ART, you'd fly to the VOR, turn right and intercept the outbound course, do the PT, and fly back inbound.......
Click to expand...

That works. Coming from the South like that I'd just make a direct entry into a holding pattern southwest of ART on the 233 radial remaning within 10 NM. That the missed approach holding is also there has nothing to do with this. Perfectly legal. The only requirement for the procedure turn is to do it on the side of the course depicted and remain within the distance specified. Type and rate of turn are at pilots discretion. AIM 5-4-9 1. This would give you two turns and one intercept instead of five turns and two intercepts tryin to fly it exactly as the GOV charts barb pictures it or other charts 90-270 and 80-260 depictions. Many procedure turns can be done a whole lot easier then made out to be.
 
luvflyin said:
That works. Coming from the South like that I'd just make a direct entry into a holding pattern southwest of ART on the 233 radial remaning within 10 NM. That the missed approach holding is also there has nothing to do with this. Perfectly legal. The only requirement for the procedure turn is to do it on the side of the course depicted and remain within the distance specified. Type and rate of turn are at pilots discretion. AIM 5-4-9 1. This would give you two turns and one intercept instead of five turns and two intercepts tryin to fly it exactly as the GOV charts barb pictures it or other charts 90-270 and 80-260 depictions. Many procedure turns can be done a whole lot easier then made out to be.
Click to expand...

While that's true, an honest-to-God procedure turn as depicted isn't very hard -- you practice the crap out of it in Patterns A and B. And some GPS units give guidance that correspond to the NACO barbs. Think of it as flying away from the course at 45 deg, turning around away from the FAF (usually), and reintercepting.

There are many ways to skin a cat, but there isn't much reason to vary it. Standardized procedures help out a lot in emergencies, particularly if you have a copilot to assist.
 
MAKG1 said:
While that's true, an honest-to-God procedure turn as depicted isn't very hard -- you practice the crap out of it in Patterns A and B. And some GPS units give guidance that correspond to the NACO barbs. Think of it as flying away from the course at 45 deg, turning around away from the FAF (usually), and reintercepting.

There are many ways to skin a cat, but there isn't much reason to vary it. Standardized procedures help out a lot in emergencies, particularly if you have a copilot to assist.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Agreed. The part of this particular scenario that is really a lot of uneccessary work is the first turn to intercept the 233 outbound. Just bringing up a different take on it that can help reduce tasks required.
 
EdFred said:
Neil. Pretty much. No different than a "T" GPS approach, really. You've got 3 IAFs for those.
Click to expand...
That's a really good comparison. And if one looks at the topography and obstructions (that also result in an offset FAC, one can pretty much see why it was set up like this.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Agreed. The part of this particular scenario that is really a lot of uneccessary work is the first turn to intercept the 233 outbound. Just bringing up a different take on it that can help reduce tasks required.
Click to expand...
Yep, plenty of options here, including, depending where in the south you are coming from, turning left to intercept the PT course outbound if it is a shorter turn.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's a really good comparison. And if one looks at the topography and obstructions (that also result in an offset FAC, one can pretty much see why it was set up like this.
Click to expand...

Yeah. The location of the airport from the VOR and it being Rwy 7 made it an offset regardless of obstructions. The thing that seems unusual to me is the WUMSO IF. Where the SYR 010 intersects the ART 223 is only 3 miles further from ART than the 10 NM already being protected for. Seems like leaving 3000 for 1300 would have been ok there
 
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