Why doesn't the FAA want GA to become more mainstream?

[OkieFlyer]

Eh, I'm not against newer designs, but I do prefer simplicity in an airplane. The goofy thing is that old, simple, proven, cookie cutter engine technology should equal cheap, but it doesn't.

 

[Doggtyred]

It's clear people are of very different minds on this issue and that's fine. I'm not proposing we ban carbs and mags but I'd have no hesitation in flying an EFI/electronic ignition aircraft and I'd like the option. My expectation is it would be most people's preference after a few years out in the wild.

Then build one. Ex-Am Built is waiting for you..

At one time I had rebuilt a Mazda rotary engine and helped install it in a plane, and instrument it with a vendor supplied EFI controller and PSRU . The devil (and reliability) is in the details..

 

[Tom-D]

Eh, I'm not against newer designs, but I do prefer simplicity in an airplane. The goofy thing is that old, simple, proven, cookie cutter engine technology should equal cheap, but it doesn't.

There is seldom anything as simplistic as electronic ignition, none of the multitude of spinning parts that are in a mag. not as easy to miss the timing marks either.

 

[denverpilot]

Sure. But do you want a variance that goes from Toyota Camry to Chrysler (anything) in terms of reliability? In the sky? Probably not.

Haven't seen a Chrysler in two decades that wouldn't run to over 100,000 miles, maintained properly. Poor analogy.

...sometimes folks get a little carried away with the "saftey" thing.

You mean they get carried away with the illusion of safety. Example: They'll fawn over IIHS ratings for new cars, and have never ever once taken an advanced driving course. As long as "safety" comes in lazy people packages, that require even less brainpower than the year before, they're all for it.

Can't be bothered to learn how to drive on a skid pad for a weekend, when planning to cart the offspring around in the mini-van, you know. Hell...

Can't even be bothered in knowing how gears and torque work anymore, a stick shift is a mystery.

Push button, receive bacon.

Redundant sensors means limp mode. Are you really willing to give up half your engine power because a MAF sensor wire broke? Think hard about that.

Install two and make some assumptions about what's being sent by them. Already done on all of my ground pounder vehicles, since a couple of decades ago... Well not the MAF but that's a cost savings thing, more than anything. Certainly downstream... Four O2 sensors in the '04, two upstream of the cat, two downstream.

Your comments about price vs value gained are dead on, however. Cessna put how many fuel drains on the restart 182 for "safety"? Heh. There's a point of stupidity and overkill, but there's nothing limiting any modern EFI to a single MAF... That's just a red herring.

 

[Dav8or]

Safety.

That is why it is somewhere between difficult and impossible to make changes to aircraft to improve crash survivablity. For example, look at what has happened in the auto industry since the 1950's:

I hate that video and I hate GM for making it. I have a passionate love for vintage cars and that stupid video demonstration is pointless. I think everybody on the planet knows that new cars are safer. There was no need to destroy something that somebody preserved for decades out of love just to make a stupid YouTube sales pitch that nobody cares about.

 

[red4golf]

Here is an upgrade that I enjoyed flying behind. While not EFI, it was a very nice upgrade on a rental that I'd flown for a long time before the change over.
http://www.electroair.net/stc_ignition_kit.html

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I hate that video and I hate GM for making it. I have a passionate love for vintage cars and that stupid video demonstration is pointless. I think everybody on the planet knows that new cars are safer. There was no need to destroy something that somebody preserved for decades out of love just to make a stupid YouTube sales pitch that nobody cares about.

GM didn't make that video.

 

[midcap]

have you priced the costs of offshore marine things? It's not that much different in terms of cost than flying.

I'll give you a for example.

new 30 foot center console boat low end model with engine no electronics is about 200k
you are going to burn about 250 gallons a tuna trip down here, so 250 x $3.00 (marine rec 90) = $750 in fuel
bait and tackle is about $150-200 per trip.
down here I would need to tow the boat to the marina with a 3/4 ton truck round trip is about 150 miles. I won't add that cost in for this example.
boat insurance is going to be about 5000k a year.
if you can't keep the boat at your house, that's anywhere from 250-500 a month for storage.
new electronics package, about $7500-15000
then people normally re power at 1000 hours when warranty is up. it normally coincides with the 3, 5, or 7 year warranty.
so two new 300HP's are going to be about 50k or more.

annual Mx on a boat that size. 100 hour service, is going to be close to $1000 for everything normally one to two of those per year.

So, it's not that different from aviation costs wise.

 

[gsengle]

Yeah but how many people can you get in that 30 footer! And how much would an airplane cost to carry that load offshore


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[midcap]

Yeah but how many people can you get in that 30 footer! And how much would an airplane cost to carry that load offshore


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I don't see what you are getting at.

 

[gsengle]

Apples and oranges. How many people can board a 30 foot boat like that? More apt comparison might be a little 16 foot runabout... I bet most airplanes we fly for 200k are four seaters...


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[midcap]

Apples and oranges. How many people can board a 30 foot boat like that? More apt comparison might be a little 16 foot runabout... I bet most airplanes we fly for 200k are four seaters...


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you aren't going offshore with that for sure. Also. the most we ever had on an offshore trip was 5. So, I don't see how many people you can carry matters, if your mission never requires that. Also, 35 knots is about max speed I am doing going offshore in decent seas. So, in theory, you could probably make 3 trips with the plane in the same amount of time as one trip in the boat.

I was just pointing out how aviation isn't vastly more expensive than other common hobbies.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Can these electronic ignition/EFI engines be hand flipped?
Or if my batter goes T/U and I don't have a way to jump or charge it, am I in for a looooooong hike??

Yes.

We installed dual E-mags on our RV-8 this past Spring. Each Emag has an integral alternator that makes it's own power when spinning. Thus, I now actually have three alternators on board.

When my starter died in June, my options were limited to (1) hand-prop an O-360 or (2) rent a car. I opted for #1, and was amazed at how easily it started. Like, almost scary-easy, on the first quarter-turn of the prop. It really hammered home to me how important it is to make sure the Emags are OFF during ground ops.

Now, if the battery was dead? I suspect it wouldn't be so easy, but it should still work.

Edit: Our installation is on a normally aspirated engine, not injected.

 

[EdFred]

I hate that video and I hate GM for making it. I have a passionate love for vintage cars and that stupid video demonstration is pointless. I think everybody on the planet knows that new cars are safer. There was no need to destroy something that somebody preserved for decades out of love just to make a stupid YouTube sales pitch that nobody cares about.

But it was a '59. BelAirs (and everything else) got ugly in 58 with the horrible looking horizontal fins.

 

[Pilawt]

My 172 (O-360) came to me with Unison Lasar electronic ignition. It was supposed to tweak the timing on the fly to make the engine more efficient, but all it did was make the cylinders run 20 degrees hotter (as the Lasar manual said it would), and it ran rough at idle. Few shops had the special tools needed to work on it, so I carried the tools around in the airplane in case I got stuck somewhere. I finally had it taken out and replaced with stock mags, and the engine has run great ever since.

 

[Wade]

This is what I find frustrating due to the FAA STC process the version with a FAA sticker costs $3500 compared to the one without it at $2000.00. Although even at 4k installed, which is what I got quoted from a local shop, it seems like a good upgrade. Especially if you already need a mag.

Certified 4 cyl. Ignition Kits

EIS-41000 Lycoming 4cyl Electronic Ignition Kit
$3,570.00
Direct Drive ( non-impulse coupled ) Magneto Replacement
The EIS-41000 Electronic Ignition Kit is a fully STC'd kit for most Lycoming 4cyl engines. Replacing one magneto with the EIS-41000 will typically improve fuel economy on average by 10-15% (many operators have reported consistent fuel savings of 1gph or greater). Additionally, there will be an improvement in horsepower, smoother engine operation, and improved high altitude performance. The EIS-41000 adjusts spark timing automatically by way of our MAP Sensor - timing is adjusted with altitude. Most parts on the EIS-41000 are not life limited (the MTH is recommended to be changed at overhaul of the engine; spark plug wires on a regular interval) - this combined with reduced spark plug fouling means lower maintenance costs. This kit can be used on either 12V or 24V systems.

Experimental Ignition Kits

EIS-1 MTH Kit 4cyl Lycoming Ignition | $1,950.00
4-cylinder Electronic Ignition System comes with: Coil Pack, Controller, Mag Timing Housing ( MTH ), MAP Sensor, spark plug wires ( specify aircraft or automotive plugs ), instruction manual. Specify engine make and model.

 

[Shopshirt]

Eh, I'm not against newer designs, but I do prefer simplicity in an airplane. The goofy thing is that old, simple, proven, cookie cutter engine technology should equal cheap, but it doesn't.

Agreed!

Also there is already proof that existing auto technology can be adapted to aviation. The Austro AE300 used by Diamond is proving to be pretty reliable and just received an 1800 hour TBO. It is still pricey though and, as I stated in another thread, the STC process and regulation has stifled competition to the advantage of two major players in the industry. A wider selection of powerplants could drive powerplant prices down.

 

[James331]

Yes.

We installed dual E-mags on our RV-8 this past Spring. Each Emag has an integral alternator that makes it's own power when spinning. Thus, I now actually have three alternators on board.

When my starter died in June, my options were limited to (1) hand-prop an O-360 or (2) rent a car. I opted for #1, and was amazed at how easily it started. Like, almost scary-easy, on the first quarter-turn of the prop. It really hammered home to me how important it is to make sure the Emags are OFF during ground ops.

Now, if the battery was dead? I suspect it wouldn't be so easy, but it should still work.

Edit: Our installation is on a normally aspirated engine, not injected.

That was the question, if the battery dies somehow and you're in the middle of nowhere, which is where I'm at 50% of the time, can I hand flip it?

 

[Doggtyred]

There is seldom anything as simplistic as electronic ignition, none of the multitude of spinning parts that are in a mag. not as easy to miss the timing marks either.

Single point of failure - crankshaft position sensor. And every engine I've ever seen had only one. Maybe there are some out there I've not seen with more than one.

 

[wsuffa]

Take a look at some of the stuff in the new drone pilot licensing rules.......

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

The reality is that "safety" is a red herring in this argument, because if the consumer wants to take the risk, in a free market that choice should be left up to them.
JKG

And how dangerous to the general public are GA crashes in any case? What is the actual likelihood of a person on the ground being killed or injured by a GA crash?

It strikes me as a very improbable event which is used as a scary story to justify a bunch of government bureaucracy - like many other items the government does "for our safety"

 

[gsengle]

Our lawmakers do things for our protection all the time, rightly or wrongly... By that logic drugs should be legal, and victimless crime would be an oxymoron. But you know, the morality police and all...


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[James331]

On that aspect we do come from a long line of puritans.

 

[RalphInCA]

Eh, I'm not against newer designs, but I do prefer simplicity in an airplane. The goofy thing is that old, simple, proven, cookie cutter engine technology should equal cheap, but it doesn't.

This is a great comment. And I guess this circles us back to liability costs, government oversight costs, etc.

 

[RalphInCA]

have you priced the costs of offshore marine things? It's not that much different in terms of cost than flying.

I'll give you a for example.

new 30 foot center console boat low end model with engine no electronics is about 200k
you are going to burn about 250 gallons a tuna trip down here, so 250 x $3.00 (marine rec 90) = $750 in fuel
bait and tackle is about $150-200 per trip.
down here I would need to tow the boat to the marina with a 3/4 ton truck round trip is about 150 miles. I won't add that cost in for this example.
boat insurance is going to be about 5000k a year.
if you can't keep the boat at your house, that's anywhere from 250-500 a month for storage.
new electronics package, about $7500-15000
then people normally re power at 1000 hours when warranty is up. it normally coincides with the 3, 5, or 7 year warranty.
so two new 300HP's are going to be about 50k or more.

annual Mx on a boat that size. 100 hour service, is going to be close to $1000 for everything normally one to two of those per year.

So, it's not that different from aviation costs wise.

Are prices high in marine products because that is the price the market will bear?

Are prices high in aviation for the same reason?

 

[SoonerAviator]

Having owned pretty much nothing but EFI vehicles, I can honestly say I've never had an EFI failure in hundreds of thousands of miles. I've had alternators go out, or an occasional coil-on-plug failure, but never an issue from the EFI-system itself.

The electronic distributor on my boat has saved a good bit of annual maintenance by not having to check points, etc. and has made all operations silky smooth just like a fresh set of points that last forever.

There's little reason that several of the modern tech items should be restricted from non-commercial GA. I can modify my car or boat to my heart's content, but do so in an aircraft and it's suddenly a paramount offense.

Also, I have no idea what the purpose of the discussion of marine vs aviation expenses is. The marine industry isn't nearly as expensive as the aviation industry is until you start playing on the commercial side or are dealing with large vessels. A Cessna is akin to a 20' runabout, not a 30' offshore center console fishing boat. You can get a new 20' runabout with modern EFI engine for less than $30K, or you can buy the SR-22 version from Formula/Chris Craft/Cobalt for $50K. Either way, the parts are affordable because they're mostly universal parts for GM engines. You start playing with 350HP outboards and things are bound to get expensive. Also, the carbed boat and jet ski have had their issues with reliability from time to time, but the EFI outboards have never needed repair or adjustment.

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[mtuomi]

Old automotive engines quit more frequently due to the lack of carburetor heat (yup, they were prone to carb ice as well), and a mixture knob.

Redundancy has to be designed, which costs a billion dollars on a car just for R&D, and it's working directly AGAINST the physics fundamentals. How much do you want to pay for that? An aircraft engine's natural state is running -- they are designed to fail on. An EFI's natural state is doing nothing.

Redundant sensors means limp mode. Are you really willing to give up half your engine power because a MAF sensor wire broke? Think hard about that.

Cars don't have much redundancy, most of R&D costs go to emissions control systems. (even if you do what GM did, that VAG copied, with known results...)

Limp mode means whatever calibration engineers want it to mean. Current ECUs carry multiple substitute functions in case of a failure. MAF sensor broke = turn into speed density strategy. IAT sensor broke at the same time? Use ISA values corrected for pAtm. Limp mode is only used when engine protection is required, or we cannot guarantee emissions compliance with a missing/faulty input.
If calibrated for a critical task, and assuming a full dual FADEC/ECU/whatever you call it, I'd say full failure in a way which renders the engine inop would happen once perhaps every 100k to a million hours. And that would very likely involve mechanical damage to systems. There are cars that have done a million miles, with zero issues in the injection system.

A modern car can run without any issues with every lambda sensor, MAF sensor and camshaft sensor disconnected, and it will still meet emissions criteria required to certify it. ECUs are physics modeled, they don't require many inputs to run, as long as the initial calibration is done correctly.

 

[mtuomi]

Single point of failure - crankshaft position sensor. And every engine I've ever seen had only one. Maybe there are some out there I've not seen with more than one.

Most modern cars can replace this signal from camshaft sensor. If I would design an engine control system for airplane application, I would include 4 camshaft and 2 crank sensors. That system would never fail, assuming you'd change a sensor when the system tells you to.

 

[MAKG1]

Cars don't have much redundancy, most of R&D costs go to emissions control systems. (even if you do what GM did, that VAG copied, with known results...)

Limp mode means whatever calibration engineers want it to mean. Current ECUs carry multiple substitute functions in case of a failure. MAF sensor broke = turn into speed density strategy. IAT sensor broke at the same time? Use ISA values corrected for pAtm. Limp mode is only used when engine protection is required, or we cannot guarantee emissions compliance with a missing/faulty input.
If calibrated for a critical task, and assuming a full dual FADEC/ECU/whatever you call it, I'd say full failure in a way which renders the engine inop would happen once perhaps every 100k to a million hours. And that would very likely involve mechanical damage to systems. There are cars that have done a million miles, with zero issues in the injection system.

A modern car can run without any issues with every lambda sensor, MAF sensor and camshaft sensor disconnected, and it will still meet emissions criteria required to certify it. ECUs are physics modeled, they don't require many inputs to run, as long as the initial calibration is done correctly.

Are you claiming that a modern car will continue to run with no significant degradation in performance if the engine block ground breaks? In my experience, that's a good way to screw up a lot of sensor inputs at the same time.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Are you claiming that a modern car will continue to run with no significant degradation in performance if the engine block ground breaks? In my experience, that's a good way to screw up a lot of sensor inputs at the same time.

You're kind of grasping a bit on that one. How often have you had an engine ground "break"? On most modern vehicles, the ground cable is usually 2/0 or similar gauge wire, which doesn't exactly snap easily, so I don't see why it would fare much differently under the cowl of an aircraft. Again, with the addition of a small backup battery (say 30-minute reserve) for the ECU, it should quell most fears.

 

[MAKG1]

You're kind of grasping a bit on that one. How often have you had an engine ground "break"? On most modern vehicles, the ground cable is usually 2/0 or similar gauge wire, which doesn't exactly snap easily, so I don't see why it would fare much differently under the cowl of an aircraft. Again, with the addition of a small backup battery (say 30-minute reserve) for the ECU, it should quell most fears.

A HELL of a lot. They last several years. Not longer. The fun ones corrode on the inside and look fine otherwise. And only the starter ground is a gauge 0 or 2. The head(s) are sometimes grounded by a braided strap or 12 gauge wire bolted to the body, difficult to see and prone to break during service. And that's how the ignition system finds its ground.

And engine block grounds are one of only several that have to all be good. Virtually every car will have at least a dozen different ground points. Some of those are critical to the engine. For instance, the PCM has to have the SAME ground as all the HEGO sensors or they will all read wrong. The fuel pump must be properly grounded as well. And improperly grounded injectors will inject the wrong amount (or no) fuel. It gets even more fun when the affected components finds a ground after one has broken, but through a circuit that can't handle it. I had a high pressure fuel pump burn out a brake light circuit that way (behind the fuse panel). A whiff of smoke and the engine quit a few seconds after I used the brakes. Then I discovered the pump would work when the parking brake was engaged, so I could start the engine normally. But it would quit as soon as it disengaged.

An extra battery does no good when there is no, or an incorrect, ground.

And electrical control systems can do all kinds of crazy things never thought of at design time, when they age.

 

[denverpilot]

So we are down to: Install multiple grounds, and do proper maintenance on them annually. Gosh, I don't think we have a mechanism for that in aviation... LOL.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Understood, MAKG. However, I should have been more specific with the backup power in that it should include a dedicated ground. Even if the backup ground source was slightly different, I'm sure the programming should be able to sort it out well enough to provide emergency power. I understand that all sorts of crazy things can occur with electronics, especially when a ground or relay goes bad. I don't think that a self-contained ignition system, and a separate EFI system would be so complicated that it would have a whole host of potential problems that couldn't be resolved through dedicated engine block grounds. If those systems reside on their own circuitry, instead of being shared on the bus with the other aircraft systems, it should limit the potential anomalies to an acceptable level. Granted, nothing with wheels or wings will be without some idiosyncrasies, but I hardly believe that reliability will be much different between the the old magneto/carb setup and the newer electronic versions with the dozen vehicles I've owned being just about flawless.

 

[midcap]

Are prices high in marine products because that is the price the market will bear?

Are prices high in aviation for the same reason?

I know it is with marine products. not sure about aviation.

Having owned pretty much nothing but EFI vehicles, I can honestly say I've never had an EFI failure in hundreds of thousands of miles. I've had alternators go out, or an occasional coil-on-plug failure, but never an issue from the EFI-system itself.

The electronic distributor on my boat has saved a good bit of annual maintenance by not having to check points, etc. and has made all operations silky smooth just like a fresh set of points that last forever.

There's little reason that several of the modern tech items should be restricted from non-commercial GA. I can modify my car or boat to my heart's content, but do so in an aircraft and it's suddenly a paramount offense.

Also, I have no idea what the purpose of the discussion of marine vs aviation expenses is. The marine industry isn't nearly as expensive as the aviation industry is until you start playing on the commercial side or are dealing with large vessels. A Cessna is akin to a 20' runabout, not a 30' offshore center console fishing boat. You can get a new 20' runabout with modern EFI engine for less than $30K, or you can buy the SR-22 version from Formula/Chris Craft/Cobalt for $50K. Either way, the parts are affordable because they're mostly universal parts for GM engines. You start playing with 350HP outboards and things are bound to get expensive. Also, the carbed boat and jet ski have had their issues with reliability from time to time, but the EFI outboards have never needed repair or adjustment.

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we can agree to disagree

Understood, MAKG. However, I should have been more specific with the backup power in that it should include a dedicated ground. Even if the backup ground source was slightly different, I'm sure the programming should be able to sort it out well enough to provide emergency power. I understand that all sorts of crazy things can occur with electronics, especially when a ground or relay goes bad. I don't think that a self-contained ignition system, and a separate EFI system would be so complicated that it would have a whole host of potential problems that couldn't be resolved through dedicated engine block grounds. If those systems reside on their own circuitry, instead of being shared on the bus with the other aircraft systems, it should limit the potential anomalies to an acceptable level. Granted, nothing with wheels or wings will be without some idiosyncrasies, but I hardly believe that reliability will be much different between the the old magneto/carb setup and the newer electronic versions with the dozen vehicles I've owned being just about flawless.

Look at a outboard engine, they live in an extremely corrosive environment, they see a lot of vibration and g forces. They seem to make it work just fine, albeit I would have somthing like a redundant crank sensor on a ignition system like a Verado/Optimax because when that goes out, you have no more spark. A very simple system with a extremely robust PCM made my Motorola.

 

[Tom-D]

Single point of failure - crankshaft position sensor. And every engine I've ever seen had only one. Maybe there are some out there I've not seen with more than one.

In Lightspeed and SDS systems all I see is a reluctor pickup. every thing else is done in the little brain box. I put a reluctor unit in my old type one VW and it ran 650,000 miles with not problem. No,,, not in the same engine.

 

[denverpilot]

Interestingly the thread went from the original question into silly minutiae about a single system on piston powered airplanes -- and we wonder why the certification process is expensive and stupid.

See thread. Haha.

 

[Tom-D]

Interestingly the thread went from the original question into silly minutiae about a single system on piston powered airplanes -- and we wonder why the certification process is expensive and stupid.

See thread. Haha.

That's why every one loves this web page.

 

[denverpilot]

That's why every one loves this web page.

Or we're all well brainwashed into thinking a certification means something is safe.

I can think of a handful of people I'd trust to hang an electronic ignition on my Skylane tomorrow and I'd fly it. It wouldn't be legal, but I wouldn't have any real worries about it, if it were those particular smart people.

Hang it on Jay's RV, suddenly legal.

Didn't change the real world risks.

 

[SoonerAviator]

First time I've ever heard "normally" aspirated, and first time I've ever heard "aspirated" in any context, in reference to gas turbine engines. "Naturally aspirated" is a type of induction system associated with reciprocating engines.

Well, I'm sure Jay meant naturally aspirated, and we seem to be discussing reciprocating engines, so . . .

 

[SoonerAviator]

we can agree to disagree

I'm not sure which portion of that you're referring to. Marine products for inboards are mostly generic automotive parts, except where spark/flame arresting versions are necessary. Most boat manufacturers use the same steering cables, throttle cables, trim pumps, etc, so the volume of parts sales in the market keeps the prices reasonable. Outboards are expensive when purchased new, but most people aren't replacing them that often if they aren't in commercial use. Hell, I'd wager that the majority of outboard-equipped boats ever sold to non-commercial customers are still with their original equipment.

Look at a outboard engine, they live in an extremely corrosive environment, they see a lot of vibration and g forces. They seem to make it work just fine, albeit I would have somthing like a redundant crank sensor on a ignition system like a Verado/Optimax because when that goes out, you have no more spark. A very simple system with a extremely robust PCM made my Motorola.

I'm not in disagreement. I was just saying that it shouldn't be overly-complex to design an EFI system for GA piston aircraft which is simple, effective, and appropriately redundant where necessary.