IFR training flight - eye-opening lesson in steep banks

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
I have 18 hours simulated instrument time.

Today I was on an IFR training flight with my CFII in VFR conditions (me under the hood of course). It was quite bumpy and windy in the mountains between Reno and Truckee. I was working hard to keep altitude and heading in the local conditions. While in a very busy moment maneuvering, figuring out the course back to a local VOR and talking to ATC, I spent a little too much time away from the attitude indicator.

I discovered myself in a steep (but thankfully level) turn at 50-55 degrees. I immediately recovered to level and was shocked that I had allowed it to get over that far. I never felt any unusual G forces. After recovering I asked my CFII when he would have mentioned something or just taken control. He said he would have let me get to about 60 degrees given that we were level.

It was a great learning experience and *very* eye-opening as to the lack of any perception of being in a steep bank.
 
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Once you finish your training in and around the Reno area, you'll think it's a breeze shooting approaches in the lower California areas. That's the only down fall to being in Reno, we have to hunt for IMC at times to stay current. The hood just isn't the same IMHO.

If you're CFII hasn't covered it yet, don't be afraid to ask for block altitudes while enroute. Had to get a block from 11,000 to 13,000 between Reno and Salt Lake City because I was riding the up and down drafts and couldn't maintain altitude for nothin....it was insane, but fun at the same time. :)

Cheers,
Brian
 
flight2000 said:
Once you finish your training in and around the Reno area, you'll think it's a breeze shooting approaches in the lower California areas. That's the only down fall to being in Reno, we have to hunt for IMC at times to stay current. The hood just isn't the same IMHO.
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Over Peavine near AWEGA I was fighting 1000+ fpm up/down drafts and bumps that messed with heading quite a bit. Not long after that I was shooting the VOR-D into Reno from Mustang and it was perfectly smooth. Such is Reno. :)

Out by TRK I did ask my CFII if he had a good horizon - it was really smokey today.
 
It is easy to see why VFR into IMC is so dangerous. You truly cannot tell.
 
Somewhere along the line you'll probably get a case of "the leans" which is similar and related to not having any sense of turning at all when you are turning.

Instead you'll think you're constantly turning. And it'll drive you batty at first.

@jesse noticed I wasn't quite sitting upright after some unusual attitude stuff under the hood at night. He joked, "Got the leans?"

I'm over there in the left seat, leaning against the left door for all I'm worth, but maintaining level flight via the instruments -- and feeling for all the world like we're in a continuous right bank.

Hahaha. It gets easier after that first one. The first one, its all you can do to not bank away from the lean. In fact what I did was inexplicably start a tiny turn away from the lean, then see it, and correct to the AI, and then back and forth a couple of times until I told myself to stop the PIO. The whole time I knew in my thoughts exactly what was occurring consciously, but the built in urge to right yourself as you're fallng over is massive.

All the texts also say you can cause yourself some interesting climb and descent feelings with abrupt power changes. I've never done those to myself yet, but know it could happen.

By the way... Do get some hood time at night somewhere it's really dark on the ground. The old joke is that "a peek is worth a thousand cross-checks" but it's great when there's no possible way to cheat even by accident. No sunlight warming one shoulder and moving across your lap, no lights on the ground to get a horizon from even in peripheral vision by accident, nothing but black.

If you want a CFI to help you mess with your vestibular system, a dark moonless night over empty terrain is definitely the way to do it.
 
I had a similar thought. A gradual roll to steep angles and a sudden correction is a textbook disorientation scenario.
 
Great experience for you. Until one has actually experienced it, it's hard to believe that one can be in a steep bank and not realize it, or straight and level and feel like the plane is turning. Hence why VFR into IMC can be so dangerous for non Insturments proficient pilots.
 
DesertNomad said:
Over Peavine near AWEGA I was fighting 1000+ fpm up/down drafts and bumps that messed with heading quite a bit. Not long after that I was shooting the VOR-D into Reno from Mustang and it was perfectly smooth. Such is Reno. :)

Out by TRK I did ask my CFII if he had a good horizon - it was really smokey today.
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Sounds like good glider weather


somorris said:
It is easy to see why VFR into IMC is so dangerous. You truly cannot tell.
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If properly trained you can
 
flight2000 said:
If you're CFII hasn't covered it yet, don't be afraid to ask for block altitudes while enroute. Had to get a block from 11,000 to 13,000 between Reno and Salt Lake City because I was riding the up and down drafts and couldn't maintain altitude for nothin....it was insane, but fun at the same time. :)
Click to expand...
:yeahthat: I had to request a block altitude once so far, and the controller was more than willing to provide. It did help to reduce the stress for that segment of flight.
 
Did that at night where there is zero outside lighting; natural or manmade.

Instructors that let you truly learn through such things are prized. Ie not jumping on you when you get into an unintended 10° bank.
 
denverpilot said:
Somewhere along the line you'll probably get a case of "the leans" which is similar and related to not having any sense of turning at all when you are turning.

Instead you'll think you're constantly turning. And it'll drive you batty at first.

@jesse noticed I wasn't quite sitting upright after some unusual attitude stuff under the hood at night. He joked, "Got the leans?"

I'm over there in the left seat, leaning against the left door for all I'm worth, but maintaining level flight via the instruments -- and feeling for all the world like we're in a continuous right bank.

Hahaha. It gets easier after that first one. The first one, its all you can do to not bank away from the lean. In fact what I did was inexplicably start a tiny turn away from the lean, then see it, and correct to the AI, and then back and forth a couple of times until I told myself to stop the PIO. The whole time I knew in my thoughts exactly what was occurring consciously, but the built in urge to right yourself as you're fallng over is massive.

All the texts also say you can cause yourself some interesting climb and descent feelings with abrupt power changes. I've never done those to myself yet, but know it could happen.

By the way... Do get some hood time at night somewhere it's really dark on the ground. The old joke is that "a peek is worth a thousand cross-checks" but it's great when there's no possible way to cheat even by accident. No sunlight warming one shoulder and moving across your lap, no lights on the ground to get a horizon from even in peripheral vision by accident, nothing but black.

If you want a CFI to help you mess with your vestibular system, a dark moonless night over empty terrain is definitely the way to do it.
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Voice of experience: this also happens when you climb into the clouds and level off. It's hard enough that I was sweating . . . I was expecting to climb through the deck and level,off in the clear at 10,000 after leaving my home base, elevation 567' msl. Instead, the bases were ~8500, and my inner ear had stabilized at climb attitude.

I wiggled up to ~10,300 by telling myself to trust the AI and altimeter. ATC asked if I was having a problem. After a couple of tense minutes, my ears adjusted and I was fine. But it was surprisingly difficult.

My first experience was with my CFII, making a turn in the clouds at cruise speed. Fell right out the bottom at 140 knots while making a standard rate turn to the right. Knew something wasn't right when I could see the snowy WV hills in front of me. Wings level, climb back to altitude,right turn on course and I was fine.

Neither event has happened again. Yet. Spatial d is sneaky,though. Getting a taste I training is a good thing.
 
DesertNomad said:
I have 18 hours simulated instrument time.

Today I was on an IFR training flight with my CFII in VFR conditions (me under the hood of course). It was quite bumpy and windy in the mountains between Reno and Truckee. I was working hard to keep altitude and heading in the local conditions. While in a very busy moment maneuvering, figuring out the course back to a local VOR and talking to ATC, I spent a little too much time away from the attitude indicator.

I discovered myself in a steep (but thankfully level) turn at 50-55 degrees. I immediately recovered to level and was shocked that I had allowed it to get over that far. I never felt any unusual G forces. After recovering I asked my CFII when he would have mentioned something or just taken control. He said he would have let me get to about 60 degrees given that we were level.

It was a great learning experience and *very* eye-opening as to the lack of any perception of being in a steep bank.
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You were level but recovered to level?? How could you be level in a steep turn?
 
DesertNomad said:
I was level as in not gaining or losing altitude, but in a very steep bank. I was not wings-level.
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That's an interesting configuration. Usually disorientation results in a steepening bank and an increasing descent.

I've done my share of light turbulence under foggles (most recently, I flew a cross-country to Sacramento that way, dropping off a CAP 182 for a 100 hour). It's pretty hard. I could tell easily when I was approaching the mountains, 'cause my altitudes all went to hell. But I haven't done worse. Might be interesting.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's an interesting configuration. Usually disorientation results in a steepening bank and an increasing descent.

I've done my share of light turbulence under foggles (most recently, I flew a cross-country to Sacramento that way, dropping off a CAP 182 for a 100 hour). It's pretty hard. I could tell easily when I was approaching the mountains, 'cause my altitudes all went to hell. But I haven't done worse. Might be interesting.
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It is very possible that I was in a natural decent, but the strong updrafts kept me at the right altitude until I noticed the steep bank. I had lots of +/- 1000fpm drafts yesterday.
 
I had a couple of 30+ degree banks and off course moments doing IFR as well. It only take a few seconds of button pushing on the 430 to go from perfect to WTF, especially if there is some turb/wind.
 
Don't forget on the checkride to keep all turns standard rate or less and that includes when you get back to the home base and take the foggles off to land VFR...
 
ChemGuy said:
I had a couple of 30+ degree banks and off course moments doing IFR as well. It only take a few seconds of button pushing on the 430 to go from perfect to WTF, especially if there is some turb/wind.
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Oh yeah. Click, click, click, click........, level wings, get back on heading, click, click, click.......repeat...... Whew, one down only four more to go, click, click....... I still say the 430 was invented to sell more autopilots.
 
luvflyin said:
Oh yeah. Click, click, click, click........, level wings, get back on heading, click, click, click.......repeat...... Whew, one down only four more to go, click, click....... I still say the 430 was invented to sell more autopilots.
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A 650 is worse. It's possible (though not easy) to program a 430 or G1000 with a whole lot less looking than a 650, due to the lack of a touch screen.

And autopilots are not helpful in turbulence. I find I can hand-fly equivalently to a GFC700 in rough air, and considerably better than a KAP140. I'm not an extraordinary pilot; they just react badly to gusts. And in the presence of strong updrafts or downdrafts, you can get yourself in much more trouble with alt hold. IF they kick off prior to violating limitations, they will lead you very close to them.
 
MAKG1 said:
A 650 is worse. It's possible (though not easy) to program a 430 or G1000 with a whole lot less looking than a 650, due to the lack of a touch screen.

And autopilots are not helpful in turbulence. I find I can hand-fly equivalently to a GFC700 in rough air, and considerably better than a KAP140. I'm not an extraordinary pilot; they just react badly to gusts. And in the presence of strong updrafts or downdrafts, you can get yourself in much more trouble with alt hold. IF they kick off prior to violating limitations, they will lead you very close to them.
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Yeah. I've flown very little with an autopilot, a single axis, and never IFR. When I was getting an IPC after 25 years away from it and learning GPS new I'd have killed for a wing leveler.
 
luvflyin said:
Oh yeah. Click, click, click, click........, level wings, get back on heading, click, click, click.......repeat...... Whew, one down only four more to go, click, click....... I still say the 430 was invented to sell more autopilots.
Click to expand...

Haha iPads aren't any better. Bolted down iPads may or may not be also.

No, I didn't want to read my damned email right now, I'm trying to pull up the approach plate you %*++>!€^ touch screen'ed POS!
 
I've had to do an unusual attitude recovery in IMC once. It was very, extremely, disconcerting.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I've had to do an unusual attitude recovery in IMC once. It was very, extremely, disconcerting.
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I know it'll happen to me eventually and I'm not looking forward to it.

As my current CFI would say...

"The current trend [on the instruments] is toward crashing."

He like using trends to make you look ahead.
 
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