Buying an SR22 to train in

arkvet said:
Money aside, Weather (regardless of your $ or ratings) makes scheduled flights in GA difficult. No way to understand that fully until you're newly minted ppl holder having to tell some friends or family it's a "no go".
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Sure, and that's why he needs to buy a less capable aircraft first so he can tell his family more often that flying is a no-go o_O .
 
noob said:
Pacific North West. I read up on your trip, and it sounds amazing. But doing that in a PA-28 is above my and my families level of comfort.
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I am not sure what you are basing this on. We flew a southern route over the Rockies, flying Reno to Page to Santa Fe, then south around the highest peaks. We stayed at 11,500 but could have easily gone to 13,500 or more. As for over water, both the SR22 and Dakota have one engine. We were wearing life jackets and had a raft and PLB. The chute might make for a better water landing survival rate, but in many ways I would like to be able to pilot an engine-out toward a ship rather than relying on the wind to carry me somewhere.

It sounds to me like you are trying to justify the SR22. That's fine, but call it like it is. If I had unlimited funds, I might have bought an SR22 over the Dakota, but not because I think it is safer... since I am not going to rely on a chute to let me fly single engine over mountains at night. I think too many people see the chute and glass as reasons to do things they would not do without them.
 
arkvet said:
Many of us have that ambition and means... But we all start by flying circles. There are also plenty of us that have the ambition and it fizzles at some point early on or we realize our goals aren't as realistic as we'd hoped. Money aside, Weather (regardless of your $ or ratings) makes scheduled flights in GA difficult. No way to understand that fully until you're newly minted ppl holder having to tell some friends or family it's a "no go".

I wish noob nothing but good luck. He came asking questions and a variety of answers he's going to receive.
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Been telling friends and family that might happen for years. Nobody minds. They kinda like us non-dead. Go figure.

Haven't cancelled a trip completely for weather in over 20 years of going by light aircraft either. Might get there hours or a day late, or have to go a day to a few hours early, but it's really not that tough, even VFR. With passengers my options are more limited than just me -- I'll happily sleep on an FBO couch to hit a weather window. No biggie.

It's not "I've scheduled my life down to the last nanosecond and I'm used to the regularity of the airlines" air travel, but it's not that hard to keep a sane person's schedule. (There's a great many insane stressed out doofuses out there who feel compulsively that they must be somewhere in fifteen minute increments of life. If you're one of those, you'll have trouble with flying by GA.)

Example: If the wedding is on Saturday in another state that you need to be at, and you see a Big Azz Storm coming on the weather map, plan to leave before it arrives. Maybe Thursday evening. Maybe Friday. And if it gets so bad you still couldn't get there, almost guaranteed someone else didn't either and slid off the road in their car, trying. You won't be the only one that couldn't make it.

The real key is you have to learn about weather. And you also have to be willing to burn some time and fuel to go around it sometimes. A long way around it. If you're stuck in the "line between two airports" mentality of XC planning in GA when there's weather afoot, you won't get there.
 
weilke said:
And each of these preferences could be argued at nauseum. A 182 has more room, bleed air fired hotwings are better and my old Piper autocontrol is so much smoother than that ghastly digital GFC700. Also, I heard from my cousins brother that someone once had a blue screen of death on his G1000 and that's why I think only a fool would want one.
If you say 'I want a SR22 because I like it' there is no possible counter-argument that is not silly.
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Really a 182 has more room? I've flown three and disagree. Further, I have a dfc 90 a/p which is much better than the piper auto control; and my plane has an Avidyne system. It is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with all possible configurations of the 22. I do agree we could argue ad nauseum.
 
noob said:
I wouldn't say the SR22 is necessarily my end game, but it is long enough term (first 1000 hours) for training and to build hours. End game is probably closer to a pressurized TurboProp or maybe something like a VisionJet, but that would be impractical and likely dangerous to train in. Either way - it's not something I can say at this point.

I want to build hours on something cheaper and safer, and I think the SR22 is the minimum we can live with for the next 500 hours p/p, and actually be able to get enough use out of to build hours. Anywhere I would want to fly to crosses mountains or water.


More detail on my cost rational if I now take CSIP training into account. If I look at some published prices, based on 70 hours of training, I see:

a) Rented 172: $17'000 -> CFI training in a rented 172 ($13700), followed by SR22 proficiency training ($3300).
b) Owned SR22: $20'000 -> CSIP SR22 training "in your airplane" ($12500). Add 70 operating hours ($7500).
c) Rented SR22: $37'000 -> CSIP SR22 training in "their SR22 Turbo with Perspective".

Then let's say I then buy e.g. a G3 Turbo for $300k, with a down-payment of $45k. Then comparing all costs:

a) $79'000 ($17k x 2 + $45k)
b) $85'000 ($20k x 2 + $45k
c) $119'000 ($37k x 2 + $45k)

(a) and (b) are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter, and it would mean 70 hours of training in an Cirrus instead of 70 hours in a 172. Otherwise to get 70 hours in a Cirrus without buying one would take (c).
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I would personally wait a little before being so zeroed in on what aircraft you "need" before you've even started training. The Cirrus is new and shiny and has the chute...so it MUST be the safest plane for you! Plus, you may be a little "rough" on your plane during the training stage. You don't know what you don't know.

Not sure if this is the case for you, but if I personally wouldn't use my $45K airplane ownership fund as a 15% downpayment for a plane. Just an observation, not a criticism.
 
Own the Cirrus. It's a great plane. I bought mine 5 days after my PPL checkride and immediately started instrument training in it. It's a great plane and you will enjoy training, and flying it. Just get one with A/C. lastly sign up at Cirruspilots.org - we're a great bunch and well worth the very small annual fee.
 
weilke said:
And each of these preferences could be argued at nauseum. A 182 has more room, bleed air fired hotwings are better and my old Piper autocontrol is so much smoother than that ghastly digital GFC700. Also, I heard from my cousins brother that someone once had a blue screen of death on his G1000 and that's why I think only a fool would want one.
If you say 'I want a SR22 because I like it' there is no possible counter-argument that is not silly.
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182 is roomy but it absolutely does not have more room than a SR22/SR20. Only have about 30 hours in a 182 vs the 700 in the Cirrus but it's enough to know which is more roomier. In fairness, I'm not 6'3" either.. just sayin
 
Denver, you're kind of preaching to the choir here, and maybe don't realize it? There are plenty of pilots out there that want to do it on a tight schedule and there are a ton of NTSB reports to back that up. Buying a more capable high performance plane can increase or decrease your safety. All depends on the pilot and their discipline to stick to their minimums and not become complacent.

My "take home message" is that there is simply no way to grasp the planning and flexibility involved with GA travel unless you've done it. I would bet 90% of people that haven't started flying lessons have some eutopic idea that GA travel is about like driving only 3-4 times faster with some added risk involved.

Btw, and maybe I missed it somewhere, but just what is your GA experience Noob? Do you have friends / relatives that fly and you've grown up around it?

If noob wants to buy a sr22 before his first lesson for the reasons he listed then I say DO IT! I mean damn it's a freaking awesome plane with great safety features and performance. I just can't imagine *knowing* my long term flying goals before my first lesson.

Say he buys an SR22 and 6 months or a year later decides it's a lot easier, less stressful, way cheaper, etc... To just fly commercial. He's gonna probably lose his @$$ on that SR22 flip, especially considering he just trained in it. Buyers of a high end plane like that are gonna love that history.

So in a nutshell I see a huge financial risk with someone buying an SR22 before their first lesson. It's a gamble that could pay off if he sticks with it though, I certainly admit. Heck it's not my money so why should I care? I don't personally, but the thorough mathematical analysis in the OP's #1 post suggests the financial aspects are being considered by him.
 
DesertNomad said:
I think too many people see the chute and glass as reasons to do things they would not do without them.
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I guess I can explain it like this: I don't buy cars without Lane Departure Warnings anymore. And you can call me an idiot who don't know how to drive, and how nobody should ever need them, and tell me how you have never driven over a line in your life.

To which I saw, good for you - but I still want my Lane Departure Warnings when I drive in mountain passes with 12 inch shoulders.

I suppose your counter-argument is that I should never be on such a road in the first place. And I don't really know what to say to that.
 
Now that two people completely misunderstood me, I guess I expressed myself in a bit a obscure. I thought it was abundantly clear that once I talked about bleed air fed hotwings that this was a tongue in cheek/ironic contribution but I guess it requires specific formatting.

[sarcasm]
[/sarcasm]

No, except for short field landings and observation duties, there is nothing the 182 does better than the SR22. That doesn"t mean people won't argue with you about it. The autocontrol is a very limited autopilot and of cource you can get the SR22 in six different avionics configurations.

The point was that the moment youu give factual reasons why you like a Cirrus, there is a litany of people who will tell you how you are wrong. If you say ' I just like it' there is no argument. If someone announces here that they are buying a Decathalon, they are not being badgered about full fuel useful load or other meaningless minutiae. The response is 'cool a Decathalon'.

OP asked about the nuts and bolts of getting his ratings in a SR22 and some knowledgeable people gave him pointers. That's all that was necessary.
 
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You guys do understand that Cirrus does this with new buyers all the time? They provide a mentor pilot/CFI as part of the purchase contract and a CSIP takes them from 0 to 100hrs and PPL/IR.
 
arkvet said:
Btw, and maybe I missed it somewhere, but just what is your GA experience Noob? Do you have friends / relatives that fly and you've grown up around it?
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Yes. Grew up around it. My dad and all his friends were pilots. My brother-in-law is a pilot & aircraft builder. Been up in various non-commercial aircraft from military to helo to GA to experimental. It's actually kind'a weird that I'm only looking at it now at the age of 40 - but life got in the way.

arkvet said:
My "take home message" is that there is simply no way to grasp the planning and flexibility involved with GA travel unless you've done it. I would bet 90% of people that haven't started flying lessons have some eutopic idea that GA travel is about like driving only 3-4 times faster with some added risk involved.
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Honestly, the lack of schedule of GA is one of the most attractive qualities. My lifestyle and work has no specific schedule or location requirements. The fact that commercial flights fly on a fixed schedule is actually a nuisance to me.

I'm more of the - "oh, I had great sleep and feel refreshed and the weather is nice, let's go to <blah> for the next few days and I'll work from there". We've so far been doing that with an RV, and we would often (always?) take off not knowing exactly when we'll come back. It works for me.
 
weilke said:
OP asked about the nuts and bolts of getting his ratings in a SR22 and some knowledgeable people gave him pointers. That's all that was necessary.
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Thanks, yes, I got what I need, which was the procedural stuff. I found a CSIP training center in my area - I'm planning on calling them up tomorrow.

I'm almost afraid now to ask on here how to know if they're any good... Is there something like a 'Yelp' for CFI's / CSIP's?
 
arkvet said:
Denver, you're kind of preaching to the choir here, and maybe don't realize it? There are plenty of pilots out there that want to do it on a tight schedule and there are a ton of NTSB reports to back that up. Buying a more capable high performance plane can increase or decrease your safety. All depends on the pilot and their discipline to stick to their minimums and not become complacent.

My "take home message" is that there is simply no way to grasp the planning and flexibility involved with GA travel unless you've done it. I would bet 90% of people that haven't started flying lessons have some eutopic idea that GA travel is about like driving only 3-4 times faster with some added risk involved.

Btw, and maybe I missed it somewhere, but just what is your GA experience Noob? Do you have friends / relatives that fly and you've grown up around it?

If noob wants to buy a sr22 before his first lesson for the reasons he listed then I say DO IT! I mean damn it's a freaking awesome plane with great safety features and performance. I just can't imagine *knowing* my long term flying goals before my first lesson.

Say he buys an SR22 and 6 months or a year later decides it's a lot easier, less stressful, way cheaper, etc... To just fly commercial. He's gonna probably lose his @$$ on that SR22 flip, especially considering he just trained in it. Buyers of a high end plane like that are gonna love that history.

So in a nutshell I see a huge financial risk with someone buying an SR22 before their first lesson. It's a gamble that could pay off if he sticks with it though, I certainly admit. Heck it's not my money so why should I care? I don't personally, but the thorough mathematical analysis in the OP's #1 post suggests the financial aspects are being considered by him.
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I'm just going to make a teeny tiny guess here that anyone who is seriously considering the purchase of an SR22 at their current price tags, knows plenty about fiscal risks and probably didn't make that announcement in a public forum without knowing the difference between spending $70K on an aircraft and over half a million.

Watching people lecture someone here on that, is pretty hilarious. "Careful! You might not want it!" LOL.

I've seen people learn to fly in all sorts of stuff. High performance singles, twins, whatever. As long as they know it might take a little longer to master a more complex airplane than a typical spam can, and have money to burn, they usually do just fine.

And anyone seriously saying they can afford a Cirrus new, already knows they can get places with a chartered aircraft with a professional pilot or crew, faster and cheaper.

It'd take a long time to blow half a million on charter flights. So it's not about the travel for them. It's about flying themselves. Going off into the weeds about GA dispatch rates is silly when you're talking to someone who wouldn't bat an eye at buying a full price airline ticket to to somewhere if their airplane broke.

I say do it in the nicest thing you can afford. If you can't afford it, do it in whatever you can get your hands on. Most of the fleet is pushing 40 years old outside of a few manufacturers now. New stuff is nice.

If you can play on the new edge of the market, might as well. Each individual knows if they have that kind of cash to burn. If they do, telling them to go rent a spam can is silly. Buy whatever you want to fly and get really proficient in it.
 
noob said:
Thanks, yes, I got what I need, which was the procedural stuff. I found a CSIP training center in my area - I'm planning on calling them up tomorrow.

I'm almost afraid now to ask on here how to know if they're any good... Is there something like a 'Yelp' for CFI's / CSIP's?
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There's not. Get references. Talk to people they've trained. Don't be afraid of new instructors but realize you also need some time with an old one too.

Mix it up a bit after the private rating. Change instructors. Keep training regularly after that rating.

You'll want the Instrument for the sort of flying you're looking to do.

Remember the ratings are based on minimum standards, and there's always more to learn.

Take any opportunity to fly with different folks, especially instructors. You'll like some, you might hate some, but all can teach you something new or remind you of something you knew and forgot.
 
Join COPA. But I'm guessing you already have. :)
 
noob said:
Seattle area. Sort'a.

I found these guys - hey, I can post links now :):
http://theflightacademy.com/
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Take a couple of hours, get started before the winter. Do your medical, do whatever ground school they recommend and start talking to real people, not the internet. Check if they would train you in your plane. Dont be suprised if they charge a higher rate for that. It is at least perceived to be a higher liability risk for the flight school as they may have to contend with your insurer if you bend your plane while their CFI is on board.
 
noob said:
...

I'm almost afraid now to ask on here how to know if they're any good... Is there something like a 'Yelp' for CFI's / CSIP's?
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I find that finding a good CFI is a very personal decision, it's about matching teaching style, personality and chemistry. What works for one may not work for another, I'm not entirely sure that the YELP approach could ever work, for that reason.

There's no substitute for the feeling that you get at the end of a coffee chat, after talking about their approach to flying and their training philosophy.
 
noob said:
Yes. Grew up around it. My dad and all his friends were pilots. My brother-in-law is a pilot & aircraft builder. Been up in various non-commercial aircraft from military to helo to GA to experimental. It's actually kind'a weird that I'm only looking at it now at the age of 40 - but life got in the way.



Honestly, the lack of schedule of GA is one of the most attractive qualities. My lifestyle and work has no specific schedule or location requirements. The fact that commercial flights fly on a fixed schedule is actually a nuisance to me.

I'm more of the - "oh, I had great sleep and feel refreshed and the weather is nice, let's go to <blah> for the next few days and I'll work from there". We've so far been doing that with an RV, and we would often (always?) take off not knowing exactly when we'll come back. It works for me.
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image.jpeg
Pretty much forget everything I said then. Not everyone (myself included) has that much background in aviation prior to lesson #1. And combine that with the flexibility you have...

Go for it.

When I took my first flight lesson I was starting from scratch. Maybe the 3rd time in my life in a non-commercial plane.


denverpilot said:
I'm just going to make a teeny tiny guess here that anyone who is seriously considering the purchase of an SR22 at their current price tags, knows plenty about fiscal risks and probably didn't make that announcement in a public forum without knowing the difference between spending $70K on an aircraft and over half a million.

Watching people lecture someone here on that, is pretty hilarious. "Careful! You might not want it!" LOL.

I've seen people learn to fly in all sorts of stuff. High performance singles, twins, whatever. As long as they know it might take a little longer to master a more complex airplane than a typical spam can, and have money to burn, they usually do just fine.

And anyone seriously saying they can afford a Cirrus new, already knows they can get places with a chartered aircraft with a professional pilot or crew, faster and cheaper.

It'd take a long time to blow half a million on charter flights. So it's not about the travel for them. It's about flying themselves. Going off into the weeds about GA dispatch rates is silly when you're talking to someone who wouldn't bat an eye at buying a full price airline ticket to to somewhere if their airplane broke.

I say do it in the nicest thing you can afford. If you can't afford it, do it in whatever you can get your hands on. Most of the fleet is pushing 40 years old outside of a few manufacturers now. New stuff is nice.

If you can play on the new edge of the market, might as well. Each individual knows if they have that kind of cash to burn. If they do, telling them to go rent a spam can is silly. Buy whatever you want to fly and get really proficient in it.
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A guy at my home airport owns a 172 and a Malibu. He takes a flying lesson every couple weeks in the 172 and occasionally (every month or two) has the CFI fly him around in the Malibu. He's been at it for a few years and just recently soloed. Some people (actually a lot) have more money than sense.

Noob has clarified that he has a pretty extensive background in GA for a guy that's never taken lessons. Fair to say that that puts him in the minority for most "noobs" with similar inquiries on this forum?

Good luck Noob!
 
arkvet said:
A guy at my home airport owns a 172 and a Malibu. He takes a flying lesson every couple weeks in the 172 and occasionally (every month or two) has the CFI fly him around in the Malibu. He's been at it for a few years and just recently soloed. Some people (actually a lot) have more money than sense.
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Sounds like he has enough sense not to try to fly the Malibu and he isn't living in a homeless shelter because he bought it, so ... Who cares that he bought it? He can sell it if he never learns to fly. I doubt it's a significant portion of his disposable income.

Sounds odd for those of us who have to work harder at money-collection, I know, but some folks really can afford to buy toys they never use and will never qualify to use.

In Noob's case, he knows what he's getting into. I suspect the Malibu guy knows exactly where he's at, too. It just isn't high on his list of things to do.

I think the guy who owns the companies I work for is like that. We never see him, but we hear the sailboat is nice. He stops by once in a while to check on things and talk about larger capital purchases, mostly to make sure we have a real business need or reason for them. Other than that, we might see him twice a year.

Like a lot of people in those lofty ranks, he likes golf. I don't get golf and have no interest in it, so the conversation about golf was awkward the last time I saw him. I said that I've played a few times and would rather go fly my airplane. Ha.
 
@denverpilot - you can get a very capable SR22 for under 200K - no need to spend a 1/2 mil. At least no need for me to spend a 1/2 mil :)
 
Agree with suggestion to join COPA - best $65 you can spend in aviation if you are going to own or fly a Cirrus.

Flight Academy is top notch training. At the upper end of the cost spectrum but they are phenomenal instructors with tons of time in type (John Fiscus one of the cofounders has over 10,000 Cirrus instructing hours) and really great people skills/teaching styles. I've flown with John a few times as well as Luke Lysen at COPA CPPPs and even with 2000+ hours in the SR22, I always learn something new with these guys and enjoy the experience. I have no affiliation to the school at all, lest you think I'm maybe too enthusiastic :)
 
EminiTrader said:
@denverpilot - you can get a very capable SR22 for under 200K - no need to spend a 1/2 mil. At least no need for me to spend a 1/2 mil :)
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If you want the goodies like the better anti-ice, higher gear and GFC700 autopilot you are going to pay more than that.
 
Another child of the chute. Or another Ben.
 
EminiTrader said:
@denverpilot - you can get a very capable SR22 for under 200K - no need to spend a 1/2 mil. At least no need for me to spend a 1/2 mil :)
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It's the order of magnitude, not the number. If you're buying a toy that costs as much as a typical house, you're not exactly unaware of that.

weilke said:
If you want the goodies like the better anti-ice, higher gear and GFC700 autopilot you are going to pay more than that.
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And this. ;)
 
weilke said:
If you want the goodies like the better anti-ice, higher gear and GFC700 autopilot you are going to pay more than that.
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Agreed. It looks like $400k is about the bare minimum for that config. You can get below that, but then I'll have an overhaul even during my instruction period. 500k is high end, but very possible.

But still in perspective - the yearly ownership cost of a $500k SR22 for 200 hours is about $80k. That's less than the price of first class return fare for 3 people from Seattle to Cape Town.

Now if only an SR22 can actually FLY to Cape Town it would be a good comparison :). Darn 100LL. Oh well.
 
noob said:
Agreed. It looks like $400k is about the bare minimum for that config. You can get below that, but then I'll have an overhaul even during my instruction period. 500k is high end, but very possible.
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Asking prices anyway. Dont worry about an overhaul if it is priced into the purchase. If you go with an exchange engine, this can be done during an annual.

One thing you have to ask yourself is whether you want or need known ice AND AC. If you do, useful load starts to get an issue.

But still in perspective - the yearly ownership cost of a $500k SR22 for 200 hours is about $80k.
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AT least you have no illusions about what it takes.

But now you have put that number out there, wait for the people to chime in who want to sell you an old King Air, or a Mu2.
 
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weilke said:
But now you have put that number out there, wait for the people to chime in who want to sell you an old King Air, or a Mu2.
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I would love to see someone show the cost of ownership of a pressurized twin TurboProp flying 200hrs/year for less than $100k/year.
 
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noob said:
Now if only an SR22 can actually FLY to Cape Town it would be a good comparison :). Darn 100LL. Oh well.
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Actually it can. Go across Canada, pop over to Greenland, then Iceland and the UK. Down through Europe, around east of the Mediterranean then down through Africa. Check out AirJourney.com they specialize in helping plan out trips like that. Very doable in a SR22, a lot of fun and it will cost less than $80k for three people. So I say GET IT! :D
 
noob said:
I would love to see someone show the cost of ownership of a pressurized twin TurboProp flying 200hrs/year for less than $100k/year.
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Again, facts, those pesky facts.

It is entirely possible to lie to yourself down to that number. I'll tell you how you can get there:
- buy a raggedy plane so you dont have much capital into it
- you claim that you fly fewer hours because 'your plane is so much faster' *
- you disregard engine reserves because 'nobody overhauls those anyway'
- you disregard prop and gear overhaul reserves because 'why account for the money now if I don't have to pay it for another 4/3/2/1 years'.

Now your plane may sit for 8 months while you are trying to source some used part, but when someone asks you what it 'costs' to own an old turboprop, you proudly proclaim that it was less than 5k per month.

It reminds me of the Geico commercials. 'As an aircraft owner, that's what you do'.






*the truth is you fly so few hours because you are barely holding on financially after you bought the TP and it was down months at a time for maintenance
 
Don Quixote said:
Actually it can. Go across Canada, pop over to Greenland, then Iceland and the UK. Down through Europe, around east of the Mediterranean then down through Africa. Check out AirJourney.com they specialize in helping plan out trips like that. Very doable in a SR22, a lot of fun and it will cost less than $80k for three people. So I say GET IT! :D
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Uhh. Actually it would cost $155k for that trip for two people. Looks like fun though.
 
weilke said:
I don't think anyone here claimed that it is 'hard' to fly. But it does stall 16kts faster than a Warrior and if you prang it on nose first you are going to buy a $45,000 engine, a $13,000 prop and a new nosewheel for god knows how much.
Of course, if a instructor trains every student to the same high standard, there is not going to be a difference in time needed between a Warrior and a SR22, but the reality is that most instructors let students solo once they are 'safe enough' and not once they maintain speeds in the pattern to a +/- 3kt tolerance.
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For the record, the nose wheel can take quite a beating. DAMHIK
 
denverpilot said:
It's the order of magnitude, not the number. If you're buying a toy that costs as much as a typical house, you're not exactly unaware of that.



And this. ;)
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Well I have TKS Anti-Ice. I do not have FIKI. I do not have GFC700 but I have DFC90. Under 200K. I understand it's alot of money. I do . I get it. But this addiction doesn't stop. I flew in a Meridian Saturday and now I want to upgrade to a turbine... When does it end? Probably when I run out of money and at this rate will not be long!!
 
EminiTrader said:
Well I have TKS Anti-Ice. I do not have FIKI. I do not have GFC700 but I have DFC90. Under 200K. I understand it's alot of money. I do . I get it. But this addiction doesn't stop. I flew in a Meridian Saturday and now I want to upgrade to a turbine... When does it end? Probably when I run out of money and at this rate will not be long!!
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I know that I can never ever allow my wife to fly in a Mustang or Citation. I know I'll never get to retire if I do.
 
weilke said:
I know that I can never ever allow my wife to fly in a Mustang or Citation. I know I'll never get to retire if I do.
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yeah i told her the price of the meridian and gave me a look... retire? what's that?
 
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