PA-12 3 place: Urban legend?

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John Bussard

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John Bussard
Flew a SuperCub this week and loved it... Continuing to refine options for the purchase plans next spring/summer, and continue to explore tandem options under 6 figures.

Can anyone validate if I can fit two light kids in the back of a Cruiser? One in 10 advertised states "3 place," I know we're not talking adults and that's not what I need, but if belted appropriately is there anything preventing it?
 
The PA-12 does have a two place rear seat behind a single front seat. Two kids will fit fine, two small adults are cozy, or one big adult.
 
The fuselage widens out at the back seat, with the idea that two people can sit there. Maybe two small kids can sit there, but two adults would be very cozy.

As a side note, look at each example closely. Many people dress up the PA-12 like a PA-18, but not all of them are. Prices will vary as a result.
 
Yeah, but if you're rocking a family of 4, I'd just get a S108, everyone is comfy, side by side, great STOL performance, seems like a better idea, also non pilots often don't dig tandem planes.
 
Two small kids will easily fit in the back of a PA-12, although there may only be one belt. The Super Cruiser is somewhat wider than a Cub.
 
I believe the engineering for the 12 was the bases for the 2300 pound up grade for the PA-18. why not a PA-18/180
 
The range in performance of PA-12s varies greatly. A stock -12 won't hold a candle to a Supercub. A highly modified -12 may. More concerning is that PA-12s were only made for 2 years (1946-47) so the newest ones are 69 years old. A recently rebuilt -12 with a new airframe is very different than a relatively stock airplane. Be very careful when considering buying a -12.

Personally I don't consider a -12 rear seat adequate for two people of any size. Any rear seat passenger in a Cub needs a shoulder harness. A -12 seat has one lap belt (on belt for two people.... bad idea) and a modified updated -12 may have an added shoulder harness. That limits the seat to one human passenger in my book. My wife and dog shared the seat in my -12.
 
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John Bussard said:
Flew a SuperCub this week and loved it... Continuing to refine options for the purchase plans next spring/summer, and continue to explore tandem options under 6 figures.

Can anyone validate if I can fit two light kids in the back of a Cruiser? One in 10 advertised states "3 place," I know we're not talking adults and that's not what I need, but if belted appropriately is there anything preventing it?
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It largely depends upon your definition of "belted appropriately". If you mean one seat belt per person, I don't know that you'll find that in a PA-12...I've never seen one with two belts in back.
 
Yeah, belted appropriately means belts/shoulder for each- A full up 18/180 exceeds cost for us, most likely.

The 170 is my going in position, but door down has a LOT of appeal to the kids and me...

This seems answered to me. Thanks for the inputs from the North.
 
John Bussard said:
Yeah, belted appropriately means belts/shoulder for each- A full up 18/180 exceeds cost for us, most likely.

The 170 is my going in position, but door down has a LOT of appeal to the kids and me...

This seems answered to me. Thanks for the inputs from the North.
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FWIW, a single lap belt for two people is acceptable if the airplane was originally built and certified that way.
 
Find a pa-14 , the family cruiser. Heck you can even get one in a kit from Wag-aero.


Problem solved
 
J5 was also certified for 3.
 
John Bussard said:
Yeah, belted appropriately means belts/shoulder for each- A full up 18/180 exceeds cost for us, most likely.

The 170 is my going in position, but door down has a LOT of appeal to the kids and me...

This seems answered to me. Thanks for the inputs from the North.
Click to expand...

You aren't flying "door down" in a PA-12, as the door is not a Cub like door.

If you're considering a Cessna 170, I'd suggest looking at the Stinson 108 too.
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, a single lap belt for two people is acceptable if the airplane was originally built and certified that way.
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I know a lot of folks think that is true, but show me where it is written?
 
Tom-D said:
I know a lot of folks think that is true, but show me where it is written?
Click to expand...

The question becomes, Why doesn't this apply?

23.785 Seats, berths, litters, safety belts, and shoulder harnesses.
There must be a seat or berth for each occupant that meets the following:

(a) Each seat/restraint system and the supporting structure must be designed to support occupants weighing at least 215 pounds when subjected to the maximum load factors corresponding to the specified flight and ground load conditions, as defined in the approved operating envelope of the airplane. In addition, these loads must be multiplied by a factor of 1.33 in determining the strength of all fittings and the attachment of—

(1) Each seat to the structure; and

(2) Each safety belt and shoulder harness to the seat or structure.

(b) Each forward-facing or aft-facing seat/restraint system in normal, utility, or acrobatic category airplanes must consist of a seat, a safety belt, and a shoulder harness, with a metal-to-metal latching device, that are designed to provide the occupant protection provisions required in §23.562. Other seat orientations must provide the same level of occupant protection as a forward-facing or aft-facing seat with a safety belt and a shoulder harness, and must provide the protection provisions of §23.562.
 
Tom-D said:
The question becomes, Why doesn't this apply?

23.785 Seats, berths, litters, safety belts, and shoulder harnesses.
There must be a seat or berth for each occupant that meets the following:

(a) Each seat/restraint system and the supporting structure must be designed to support occupants weighing at least 215 pounds when subjected to the maximum load factors corresponding to the specified flight and ground load conditions, as defined in the approved operating envelope of the airplane. In addition, these loads must be multiplied by a factor of 1.33 in determining the strength of all fittings and the attachment of—

(1) Each seat to the structure; and

(2) Each safety belt and shoulder harness to the seat or structure.

(b) Each forward-facing or aft-facing seat/restraint system in normal, utility, or acrobatic category airplanes must consist of a seat, a safety belt, and a shoulder harness, with a metal-to-metal latching device, that are designed to provide the occupant protection provisions required in §23.562. Other seat orientations must provide the same level of occupant protection as a forward-facing or aft-facing seat with a safety belt and a shoulder harness, and must provide the protection provisions of §23.562.
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The question really is: when was that regulation written and was it before or after the PA-12 was certified?

I know it was not written before the 1920s and 30s when the Travel Airs and Wacos were made. I don't think you will find a General Counsel interpretation that addresses it, however, the various FSDOs who have inspected and issued sightseeing LOAs to Travel Airs and Wacos interpret it as acceptable.
 
Also, the reg quoted says that shoulder harnesses are required which makes it relatively new (and definitely post-PA12).

We know that is not a retroactive requirement as the FAA has 'encouraged' owners of older aircraft to add shoulder harnesses, but they have not required it.

Still a few of 135 airplanes operating out there with only lap belts for the pilots.
 
Tom-D said:
The question becomes, Why doesn't this apply?

23.785 Seats, berths, litters, safety belts, and shoulder harnesses.
There must be a seat or berth for each occupant that meets the following:

(a) Each seat/restraint system and the supporting structure must be designed to support occupants weighing at least 215 pounds when subjected to the maximum load factors corresponding to the specified flight and ground load conditions, as defined in the approved operating envelope of the airplane. In addition, these loads must be multiplied by a factor of 1.33 in determining the strength of all fittings and the attachment of—

(1) Each seat to the structure; and

(2) Each safety belt and shoulder harness to the seat or structure.

(b) Each forward-facing or aft-facing seat/restraint system in normal, utility, or acrobatic category airplanes must consist of a seat, a safety belt, and a shoulder harness, with a metal-to-metal latching device, that are designed to provide the occupant protection provisions required in §23.562. Other seat orientations must provide the same level of occupant protection as a forward-facing or aft-facing seat with a safety belt and a shoulder harness, and must provide the protection provisions of §23.562.
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Because 03.38221 applies.
"Provisions shall be made at all seats and berths for the installation of belts or harness of sufficient strength to comply with the emergency conditions of 03.3811."

And the TCDS says it's a 3-place airplane (except in utility category).
http://www.luscombeassoc.org/tc/Piper/A780.PA-12.pdf
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Because 03.38221 applies.
"Provisions shall be made at all seats and berths for the installation of belts or harness of sufficient strength to comply with the emergency conditions of 03.3811."

And the TCDS says it's a 3-place airplane (except in utility category).
http://www.luscombeassoc.org/tc/Piper/A780.PA-12.pdf
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Just because the type certificate says it is a 3 place doesn't negate the requirement.
03.38221 gotta link. Google doesn't see it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Also, the reg quoted says that shoulder harnesses are required which makes it relatively new (and definitely post-PA12).

We know that is not a retroactive requirement as the FAA has 'encouraged' owners of older aircraft to add shoulder harnesses, but they have not required it.

Still a few of 135 airplanes operating out there with only lap belts for the pilots.
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If you believe all that is true, tell us why the FAR 23.785 does not apply. give us the reference.
 
Tom-D said:
Just because the type certificate says it is a 3 place doesn't negate the requirement.
03.38221 gotta link. Google doesn't see it.
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The requirement came AFTER the type certificate. Show us where the requirement is retroactive.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The requirement came AFTER the type certificate. Show us where the requirement is retroactive.
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Not buying it with out the reference that shows some aircraft are exempt. FAR requirements apply to all aircraft. unless there is an exemption written into them. this one doesn't.
 
Tom-D said:
If you believe all that is true, tell us why the FAR 23.785 does not apply. give us the reference.
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Since you seem to want to play Ron L, you can go look up the FAA guidance on installing shoulder harnesses yourself. It makes it pretty clear that it is not a requirement.
 
On a serious note Tom, please read FAR 23.1 (applicability) and 23.2 (special retroactive requirements) and tell us how those definitions could be construed to apply to aircraft that were type certified prior to the issuance of FAR 23.
 
Part 23 doesn't apply to CAR3 airplanes but sometimes an owner needs to apply common sense to protect his family even when government regs don't dictate it.
 
Stewartb said:
Part 23 doesn't apply to CAR3 airplanes .
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Where is that written?
you just been ramp checked by a punk inspector, that believes that FAR 23 applies, show us why it doesn't.
 
Fearless Tower said:
On a serious note Tom, please read FAR 23.1 (applicability) and 23.2 (special retroactive requirements) and tell us how those definitions could be construed to apply to aircraft that were type certified prior to the issuance of FAR 23.
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Well there ya go, like pulling teeth.
The reference :
23.2 Special retroactive requirements.
(a) Notwithstanding §§21.17 and 21.101 of this chapter and irrespective of the type certification basis, each normal, utility, and acrobatic category airplane having a passenger seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, manufactured after December 12, 1986, or any such foreign airplane for entry into the United States must provide a safety belt and shoulder harness for each forward- or aft-facing seat which will protect the occupant from serious head injury when subjected to the inertia loads resulting from the ultimate static load factors prescribed in §23.561(b)(2) of this part, or which will provide the occupant protection specified in §23.562 of this part when that section is applicable to the airplane. For other seat orientations, the seat/restraint system must be designed to provide a level of occupant protection equivalent to that provided for forward- or aft-facing seats with a safety belt and shoulder harness installed.
 
Stewartb said:
My airplanes are certificated under CAR3, not part 23. That's pretty damn simple to understand.
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You can't understand stuff until you can find the regulation and read it.
 
Now here is the catch.... Are you buying that PA-12 in Canada? trying to import it? what's the requirement now?
 
Tom-D said:
Just because the type certificate says it is a 3 place doesn't negate the requirement.
03.38221 gotta link. Google doesn't see it.
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You know as well as I do where to find it. I quoted it, that's what you asked for. I'm not playing Calvinball with you.
 
Because I don't need to. There is no requirement for a CAR 3 airplane to comply with part 23 standards. Why don't you have your hypothethetical FAA guy show you a reg that says it does? Good luck with that!

I rebuilt a PA-12 from the ground up and have a clear memory of FAA inspections and requirements. And like I said, just because I didn't have to add some equipment didn't mean I shouldn't.
 
Tom-D said:
Well there ya go, like pulling teeth.
The reference :
23.2 Special retroactive requirements.
(a) Notwithstanding §§21.17 and 21.101 of this chapter and irrespective of the type certification basis, each normal, utility, and acrobatic category airplane having a passenger seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, manufactured after December 12, 1986, or any such foreign airplane for entry into the United States must provide a safety belt and shoulder harness for each forward- or aft-facing seat which will protect the occupant from serious head injury when subjected to the inertia loads resulting from the ultimate static load factors prescribed in §23.561(b)(2) of this part, or which will provide the occupant protection specified in §23.562 of this part when that section is applicable to the airplane. For other seat orientations, the seat/restraint system must be designed to provide a level of occupant protection equivalent to that provided for forward- or aft-facing seats with a safety belt and shoulder harness installed.
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If this reg did apply to the aircraft, you would also see the Part 23 reg references in the TCDS. See page 35 of the PA-28 TCDS, for example.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...6f177b488625800a00660c10/$FILE/2A13_Rev54.pdf
 
Stewartb said:
Because I don't need to. There is no requirement for a CAR 3 airplane to comply with part 23 standards. Why don't you have your hypothethetical FAA guy show you a reg that says it does? Good luck with that!

I rebuilt a PA-12 from the ground up and have a clear memory of FAA inspections and requirements. And like I said, just because I didn't have to add some equipment didn't mean I shouldn't.
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Is it too difficult to give the reference ? did you read post 31? yet here you are.:)
 
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