Holds and DME arcs IFR rating

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Joe hart

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Joehart96
How many sessions (hours) is the average to domain holdings and dme arcs? wich is the best way to practice them while not on flight?

How long does it should take? And after that what about approaches?, which is the time it takes the instruments rating?
 
I suspect it's not much. DME arcs aren't that hard are they? Turn in as required to keep on distance. Desktop flight sims are a pretty cheap and effective way to practice this.

Approaches are fundamental to IFR after basic attitude flying... it's where you spend most your time for the instrument rating. Outside of the x/c's, most of the time in training you're doing "rapid fire" approaches from one approach to the next. I remember about 3-5 approaches per 1.2 hour flight, each to an abbreviated missed (with ATC's help) to the next vector to final/IAF until the last full stop at home base.
 
It really, really depends on the pilot and the instructor. Some instructors overcomplicate both (especially holds) beyond comprehension. OTOH, I had a student who understood holding patterns from the very first one, without much input from me at all.

Practicing them away from an airplane? PC flight sim is an option, as are a few free limited simulation options on the web.
 
flydigital said:
I suspect it's not much. DME arcs aren't that hard are they? Turn in as required to keep on distance.
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Shhhh. Don't give away the secret. It's supposed to be difficult!!!! ;)

Like holds, they are often taught as a series of trees without any regard to what the forest looks like.
 
Depends on the particular student as far as time. FAA Part 61 time (hours) requirements for Instrument Rating is generally pretty accurate as a guide. Sims are out there, from desktop to full motion. Some FBOs have that Redbird sim, which I know nothing about, but rent it out (or is it in?). DME arcs and holds, well, just a little practice and you'll have them down. Approaches and missed approaches the same. Partial panel and maneuvers practice practice practice!
 
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I'd avoid the Redbird. It's a toy. Even training devices that aren't countable for training are probably better for teaching these sorts of things than that. I did my ADF lesson and a small amount of hold practice on one afternoon session with the old clunky ATC-610 that the PIC guy brought. I have a DME in the plane so we actually flew that (and flew a bunch of holds as well). Frankly, doing your first bunch of holds on the ground with a trainer of some sort is advantageous.

If you don't take your checkride in a DME equipped plane, there are no DME arc tasks (at least there shouldn't be if the DPE follows the test standards). DME arcs don't take any time at all to learn really.
 
flyingron said:
I'd avoid the Redbird. It's a toy. Even training devices that aren't countable for training are probably better for teaching these sorts of things than that. I did my ADF lesson and a small amount of hold practice on one afternoon session with the old clunky ATC-610 that the PIC guy brought. I have a DME in the plane so we actually flew that (and flew a bunch of holds as well). Frankly, doing your first bunch of holds on the ground with a trainer of some sort is advantageous.
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I see very little difference between an ATC-610 and a typical RedBird other than one uses real gauges and noisy servos that you can hear moving (you would never hear that in the airplane and it makes cheating in a 610 really easy) and one uses an LCD panel. Both can be as "immersive" as a scenario can make them, for procedures training anyway. Neither replaces a real aircraft.

What model RedBird are you thinking of? There's everything from the one that's basically just a home flight sim you could build yourself, all the way up to the full-motion variety. I've "flown" a couple of RedBird types, the ATC-610, and that awful Jeppesen thing that ran on DOS back in the day, and a few others. They're all nearly identical other than graphics quality (which you don't need for the instrument really) and instrument update speed which is nice and smooth and fast on the RedBird and "fine" in the 610.

Not meaning to start any debate over cheap sims, but I'm really curious what was wrong with whatever RedBird you've seen. Did you only see the cheap "home" one? The ones intended for real heavy use are easily as good as the ATC. And don't require the instructor/operator to poke archaic commands into a green-screen monitor for failures and what not. LOL.
 
I've only been in the full motion thing with it's "simulation" if you can call it that of the G1000 which was so egregiously awful that it is counter productive to learn things on it because it doesn't come close to the real thing. The flight models are worse than most of the other software-based trainers out there.
 
flyingron said:
I've only been in the full motion thing with it's "simulation" if you can call it that of the G1000 which was so egregiously awful that it is counter productive to learn things on it because it doesn't come close to the real thing. The flight models are worse than most of the other software-based trainers out there.
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Ah, just dump that G1000 crap and it's just like any other sim. Can turn the motion off too. LOL.

Which other software based trainers have better flight models?
 
flyingron said:
If you don't take your checkride in a DME equipped plane, there are no DME arc tasks (at least there shouldn't be if the DPE follows the test standards). DME arcs don't take any time at all to learn really.
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So you're saying I can't fly an ARC with my GNS430W? Hmmm.
 
I've flown the Elite G1000 simulator and I thought it was pretty darned good. PIC went with touch trainer and their stuff looks interesting but I've not actually gotten a chance to try it yet.
 
EppyGA said:
So you're saying I can't fly an ARC with my GNS430W? Hmmm.
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He's not saying you can't fly an arc with your 430, just that the examiner shouldn't test you on an ARC unless you have DME.

While GPS can be used as a substitute for DME while flying, the PTS/ACS only specify it's to be tested IF the airplane has DME. This point has been argued a few times here before though.
 
Somedudeintn said:
He's not saying you can't fly an arc with your 430, just that the examiner shouldn't test you on an ARC unless you have DME.

While GPS can be used as a substitute for DME while flying, the PTS/ACS only specify it's to be tested IF the airplane has DME. This point has been argued a few times here before though.
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I guess I'd better turn my ticket in then.
 
EppyGA said:
I guess I'd better turn my ticket in then.
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I think it'll be alright. The real question on that one is if the statement in the PTS, "
NOTE: Any reference to DME arcs, ADF, or GPS shall be disregarded if the aircraft is not equipped with these specified navigational systems. " is to be taken literally.

I guess someone should try to get a clarification letter from the chief counsel. Although then we would end up with some extremely convoluted response.
 
flyingron said:
I've flown the Elite G1000 simulator and I thought it was pretty darned good. PIC went with touch trainer and their stuff looks interesting but I've not actually gotten a chance to try it yet.
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I use a touch trainer at home to simulate the SR22. It works great.
 
Somedudeintn said:
I think it'll be alright. The real question on that one is if the statement in the PTS, "
NOTE: Any reference to DME arcs, ADF, or GPS shall be disregarded if the aircraft is not equipped with these specified navigational systems. " is to be taken literally.

I guess someone should try to get a clarification letter from the chief counsel. Although then we would end up with some extremely convoluted response.
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One would think since they are legal to fly:

DME arcs associated with instrument approaches may be flown using GPS distance provided the DME transmitter, on which the arc is based, is identified in the GPS database
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https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advoc...-services-brief-use-of-gps-in-lieu-of-dme-adf

They should be legal on a check ride. Is that still that way in the ACS?

The VOR-A @ WDR is usually the first approach I do when I go out to practice.
 
Somedudeintn said:
He's not saying you can't fly an arc with your 430, just that the examiner shouldn't test you on an ARC unless you have DME.

While GPS can be used as a substitute for DME while flying, the PTS/ACS only specify it's to be tested IF the airplane has DME. This point has been argued a few times here before though.
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While technically you are correct about not testing without a DME, that's not necessarily real-world. My checkride last month included a DME arc sans DME. Multiple DPE's I talked to always do them and there aren't any approaches with DME arcs in the local area. I actually kinda enjoyed flying them.
 
flydigital said:
I suspect it's not much. DME arcs aren't that hard are they? Turn in as required to keep on distance. Desktop flight sims are a pretty cheap and effective way to practice this.
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DME arcs are dirt simple. I find the easy way to stay on the arc is to set the DME instrument to read speed to station. Hold that on 0 and you are on the arc. Don't forget, you're allowed +/- 1 nm, so you've got a lot of sky to play with flying one.
 
mr_happyland said:
While technically you are correct about not testing without a DME, that's not necessarily real-world. My checkride last month included a DME arc sans DME. Multiple DPE's I talked to always do them and there aren't any approaches with DME arcs in the local area. I actually kinda enjoyed flying them.
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Multiple DPEs ought to have the designations pulled, then. The ACS is there for a reason. They should not be making stuff up.
 
I've flown several of the Redbird sims at KHYI. The flight models are OK, not great. The visuals are good. I was most impressed by the King Air sim. This is the first GA sim I've ever flown that had a yoke that felt like I was in a real airplane, rather than just a spring loaded horizontal joystick.

Just over the last two weeks I've had three sim sessions in a Elite simulator. I liked that a lot. It had the full panel with real knobs and buttons, including a G430. The yoke was spring loaded, but it was possible to trim it up to fly hands off, which is nice.

I think the flight model was better than in the Redbirds, but both are excellent training devices.
 
Ghery said:
DME arcs are dirt simple.
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Yep. It's one of those procedures that sound complicated (and, I'll say again, unfortunately taught to be complicated) but are soooo simple. I recall the first one I ever flew, well after I got the rating. It was with a friend as safety pilot, heading to an airport that had two nice ones and figured, what the heck.

I had read the standard description of how to fly it, I thought, "OMG! how will I ever do this?" before I did it. After, it was, "Really? Is that all? Why don't they make it sound so difficult." Over lunch I mentally simplified it a lot (more later).

Ultimately, I think the only thing that can actually screw someone up is turning the wrong way when intercepting the arc - kind of the standard difficulty some people have figuring out left and right.

Personally, I think the problem is that "turn 10 twist 10" silliness. Way more workload than necessary. I think "twist 10" is far more twisting than needed for situational awareness along the arc and why would anyone turn unless the DME readout shows a turn is needed?
 
Almost all* of them are dirt simple when flown with a GPS like the 480 that supports distance-to-fix legs driving a CDI, really any CDI. You just turn to keep the CDI centered. Couldn't be simpler. (Yes, you do have to have the situational awareness to turn the correct way onto the arc, but I have a hard time believing that's a common problem.)

*I think there are something like two approaches in the US where the DME arc is the final approach segment, and then of course you need true DME and you have to fly it the conventional way. I have to admit, even though I once flew a Cardinal with true DME, I never flew a real DME arc, so I don't really know how difficult or easy they are.
 
azure said:
Almost all* of them are dirt simple when flown with a GPS...
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Of course. I think most of us were talking about the old school VOR/DME menthod, not having a line to follow on a moving map.

Even the famous Martin State approach you are referring to (I'm not aware of the second) would become simple with all that extra situational awareness.
 
azure said:
*I think there are something like two approaches in the US where the DME arc is the final approach segment, and then of course you need true DME and you have to fly it the conventional way. I have to admit, even though I once flew a Cardinal with true DME, I never flew a real DME arc, so I don't really know how difficult or easy they are.
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I've flown many DME arcs with the foggles. Never done one in IMC. The 'kota was /A for my instrument training and checkride. They are sorta fun and definitely easy. The longer arcs get a little boring at 90 knots...some of the arcs in the mountains are a little hair raising because you do get close to terrain.
 
I have multiple DME arcs available not far from my home airport, so we all get trained (and often tested) on them for real. They are pretty simple, and the further from the VOR they are, the easier they are. One is close in (8 miles) and very long. Still, a whole mile of slop is a LOT. I've never heard of someone busting one. I suppose they could if they blew through the final approach segment.

IRL, you almost never fly the arcs unless you ask for them. Approach always wants VTF. And due to all the terrain, the VOR/DME approach has really high minimums, and real marine layer means you really want the LPV. Even the LOC approach is high (and often has a tailwind, so timing the MAP is rather difficult, and particularly critical).
 
MAKG1 said:
I have multiple DME arcs available not far from my home airport, so we all get trained (and often tested) on them for real. They are pretty simple, and the further from the VOR they are, the easier they are. One is close in (8 miles) and very long. Still, a whole mile of slop is a LOT. I've never heard of someone busting one. I suppose they could if they blew through the final approach segment.

IRL, you almost never fly the arcs unless you ask for them. Approach always wants VTF. And due to all the terrain, the VOR/DME approach has really high minimums, and real marine layer means you really want the LPV. Even the LOC approach is high (and often has a tailwind, so timing the MAP is rather difficult, and particularly critical).
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Recently flying from Portland to Newport OR in IMC I was given the vor to 16. it started on the airway I was on and featured a small arc. I didn't ask for it, it was just the most convenient for both me and the controller. Vectors doesn't make a whole lot of sense out that way because services aren't all that great at low altitudes.

In areas with good radar coverage vectors to final is usually a sure thing though.
 
To Hijack a bit . Am I missing anything by flying say a 15 dme arc just turning in 5-10 degrees when it goes to 15.1 and doing that till I hit the radial I want? How I've been doing it is turn onto the arc set my obs to the radial I want then just follow my 15.1 to 15 to 15.1 to 15 until I reach my radial to get off the arc. Seems super easy yet when I read how to do it theres all sorts of twisting turning and calculating.
 
falconkidding said:
To Hijack a bit . Am I missing anything by flying say a 15 dme arc just turning in 5-10 degrees when it goes to 15.1 and doing that till I hit the radial I want? How I've been doing it is turn onto the arc set my obs to the radial I want then just follow my 15.1 to 15 to 15.1 to 15 until I reach my radial to get off the arc. Seems super easy yet when I read how to do it theres all sorts of twisting turning and calculating.
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Nope, that's it. Other option is to just make one constant turn, if the distance increases to 15.1, increase the bank, goes to 14.9 decrease it. When the vor set to the inbound course starts to move, start your turn to the inbound heading. Really simple. Turn, straight, turn straight is how it's taught but it requires a lot of extra knob turning that isn't necessary
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Other option is to just make one constant turn, if the distance increases to 15.1, increase the bank, goes to 14.9 decrease it.
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It's not really feasible in light aircraft to fly a constant bank around the turn. The bank angle required for a 10 DME arc at, say 90 knots, according my calculations is 0.67 degrees. Pretty hard to see that, let alone fly it! Larger DME arcs would be even less. Even at the maximum 250 knots, a 10 nm radius turn requires only 5 degrees of bank.
 
RussR said:
It's not really feasible in light aircraft to fly a constant bank around the turn. The bank angle required for a 10 DME arc at, say 90 knots, according my calculations is 0.67 degrees. Pretty hard to see that, let alone fly it! Larger DME arcs would be even less. Even at the maximum 250 knots, a 10 nm radius turn requires only 5 degrees of bank.
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Now I want to go try it. Haha. Good thing my DME is broken. LOL
 
MAKG1 said:
You can fly them with a 430 or equivalent. Set direct-to the VOR, hit the OBS button, and use the CDI just like a VOR. The default nav page shows the distance.
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He forgot to install a 430...
 
falconkidding said:
To Hijack a bit . Am I missing anything by flying say a 15 dme arc just turning in 5-10 degrees when it goes to 15.1 and doing that till I hit the radial I want? How I've been doing it is turn onto the arc set my obs to the radial I want then just follow my 15.1 to 15 to 15.1 to 15 until I reach my radial to get off the arc. Seems super easy yet when I read how to do it theres all sorts of twisting turning and calculating.
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No, you are not missing anything. It's exactly what I meant by the silliness of "turn 10, twist 10." And it is one part of how I teach flying the arc (no GPS or moving map).
 
RussR said:
It's not really feasible in light aircraft to fly a constant bank around the turn. The bank angle required for a 10 DME arc at, say 90 knots, according my calculations is 0.67 degrees. Pretty hard to see that, let alone fly it! Larger DME arcs would be even less. Even at the maximum 250 knots, a 10 nm radius turn requires only 5 degrees of bank.
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...and that's without also calculating the bank and crab angle for the effect of changing GS due to changing effect of winds as you go around the arc, even if they are steady. The "rules" of VFR turns around a point still apply.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No, you are not missing anything. It's exactly what I meant by the silliness of "turn 10, twist 10." And it is one part of how I teach flying the arc (no GPS or moving map).
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Even doing the turn 10 twist 10 isn't bad. I think it helps with wind awareness but probably little advantage.
 
Clark1961 said:
Even doing the turn 10 twist 10 isn't bad. I think it helps with wind awareness but probably little advantage.
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True. And I do recommend twists, a minimum of 3 for situational awareness.
 
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