Flight following and the "Special Flight Rules Area" over LAX

eetrojan

eetrojan

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eetrojan
I'm going to fly from John Wayne (KSNA) to San Luis Obispo (KBSP) to visit my son at Cal Poly. I'm planning to use the “Special Flight Rules Area” to fly northwesterly through the LAX bravo at 4500 AGL (see below), and then head up along the coast.

Oddly, I've flown several other transitions where I stay with ATC (mini route, coliseum route, etc.), but never the SFRA. I could just wing it, but figured I may as well ask...

If I'm on flight following with SoCal Approach:

1. When will SoCal dump me to squawk 1201?

2. Does SoCal give me a frequency to resume flight following on the north side of LAX, or do I need to contact SoCal on the frequency show on the TAC (124.6) when desired when I choose to north of LAX?

Thanks!

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If you are going with flight following, there is no reason to use that route or squawk 1201. Stay with ATC and your assigned squawk and ask to be cleared through the Bravo. If you really just want to do that route for the experience, then terminate flight following at 4500 near TOA, squawk 1201, hit the radial, make your radio calls and then just stay VFR on your own to BSP. I suppose you could try to pick up FF again once past SMO but what's the point? If you really want FF just stay with them all the way.
 
I concur. The Mini Route does almost exactly what you want (though I'd go higher, and route via Fellows VOR, 'cause there sure is a lot of marine layer out there).
 
Wave when you go over my office :)
 

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I'd use the Coastal Route instead. It's almost an identical flight path and you get to talk with ATC the whole time. If you're already talking with ATC, it's higher than necessary workload to drop your FF then pick it up again on the other side.
 
coma24 said:
I'd use the Coastal Route instead. It's almost an identical flight path and you get to talk with ATC the whole time. If you're already talking with ATC, it's higher than necessary workload to drop your FF then pick it up again on the other side.
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I considered the Coastal Route, but the instructions say "proceed outbound on the LAX 323 radial until exiting the Los Angeles Class B near the Sepulveda Pass," i.e. north of the 50/100 bravo shelf.

I'm just guessing, but I'd bet they don't allow exceptions from that full-north exit requirement because the northwest altitude is 6500 MSL and there's a lot of LAX traffic descending toward the east in that 50/100 segment.

It wouldn't be the end of the world, but if I fly through the SFRA at 4500, i stay below the 50/100 segment, and I can stay along the coast without going that far north.

If I'm missing something on this, let me know!

LAX_Coastal_Route.jpg
 
MAKG1 said:
I concur. The Mini Route does almost exactly what you want (though I'd go higher, and route via Fellows VOR, 'cause there sure is a lot of marine layer out there).
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I really like the Mini Route, but I want to try something different because I've already done that a few times.

On flying to KSBP via the Fellow FLW VOR, are you talking about going inland through the Tejon Pass - i.e. via Magic Mountain and the Gorman GMN VOR?
 
That is correct, however, you could advise ATC that you'd like to descend and break off the route to the west prior to exiting the Bravo. The bulk of the Bravo traffic there will be jet arrivals on the SADDE STAR descending to 7k, plus a smattering of jets on the GMN/CASTA SIDs. Given that you can hustle down below the Bravo from 6500 to 4500 in about 3 minutes, I'd be surprised if they wouldn't let you do it. If, on the off chance that they don't let you do it, the additional ground track is not much longer and you can rejoin the coast fairly easily.

The miniroute is certainly an option, but you'd need to drop down from your normal cruise altitude (presumably) and there's a lot more radio work for it.
 
SkyDog58 said:
If you are going with flight following, there is no reason to use that route or squawk 1201. Stay with ATC and your assigned squawk and ask to be cleared through the Bravo. If you really just want to do that route for the experience, then terminate flight following at 4500 near TOA, squawk 1201, hit the radial, make your radio calls and then just stay VFR on your own to BSP. I suppose you could try to pick up FF again once past SMO but what's the point? If you really want FF just stay with them all the way.
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Thanks SkyDog58.

On the underlined suggestion, I could be wrong, but I get the impression that it's good to have a specific route in mind for crossing the bravo and not just ask to be cleared. However, I'm a pretty new pilot so take that with a grain of salt.

I suspect that your intuition on proactively terminating and needing to ask for FF again is exactly right. I prefer flight following out here, so if I end up doing this part, I'll probably request it again on the other side of the SFRA at some point.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I really like the Mini Route, but I want to try something different because I've already done that a few times.

On flying to KSBP via the Fellow FLW VOR, are you talking about going inland through the Tejon Pass - i.e. via Magic Mountain and the Gorman GMN VOR?
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Yes. Lots of emergency landing sites that you don't get on a coastline obscured by undercast.

Unless the wind is blowing hard or there is a big fire in Santa Clarita.

And there is a pretty big active TFR just north of Santa Barbara. Your path clips it. I'd just steer clear, as a big fire can make for IMC at higher altitudes than the marine layer, depending on prevailing winds.
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
Thanks SkyDog58.

On the underlined suggestion, I could be wrong, but I get the impression that it's good to have a specific route in mind for crossing the bravo and not just ask to be cleared. However, I'm a pretty new pilot so take that with a grain of salt.

I suspect that your intuition on proactively terminating and needing to ask for FF again is exactly right. I prefer flight following out here, so if I end up doing this part, I'll probably request it again on the other side of the SFRA at some point.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
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It is best to have a route planned in case they are swamped.

You can always ask for a deviation.

For instance, last time I went to TOA, I crossed on the Coastal Route, and then descended off route past LAX VOR, still in Class B.
 
I fly from SNA and FUL all the time to NorCal via SBA...I prefer the Coastal Route hands down. It is the most relaxed path through the LA basin in my opinion. If you take the SFRA they will dump you off FF, you switch to CTAF and 1201 then YOU have to reestablish FF on the other side...and that is the ONLY place I have ever had a hard time getting FF in the air when it is busy. I MUCH prefer a published route so it is just handoffs all the way through. If you want to stay low...I stick with the Mini Route.

If it is not busy, they will give you a short cut towards SBA after crossing LAX if there is no inbound traffic. I get that offered maybe 30% of the time but even if not, exiting the Bravo as published then own nav is not really much of a detour. That little sliver between LAX and the exit of the coastal route can be HEAVY inbound traffic into the LA basin if you want to cut over early otherwise.

register@teamandras.com said:
On the underlined suggestion, I could be wrong, but I get the impression that it's good to have a specific route in mind for crossing the bravo and not just ask to be cleared. However, I'm a pretty new pilot so take that with a grain of salt.
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Correct...for LAX Bravo there is not much just asking to be randomly cleared into Barvo...you either need to KNOW and fly one of the published VFR routes on FF or the SFRA which is a VERY specific procedure that allows you to cross the Bravo and NOT talk to ATC...but you would not be on the SFRA route and talking to ATC. With ANY of the routes ATC expects you be familiar with the routes (LAX TAC being on board is a requirement) otherwise they will shoo you away. Only people I ever heard denied Bravo Clearence are those that show up unprepared. I get deviations all the time once inside LAX Bravo, but you go in prepared to and expected to fly the full published route.
 
I've done it a few times. They usually give you 1201 and terminate you around TOA. I've never tried to pre coordinate getting picked up on the other side and if you do I think you'll probably have a "that controller snarled at me" story to tell. Don't bother with 124.6, you won't be near that sector. You might try 125.2. Depending on traffic and/or how the controllers day is going you may get service, snarled at or ignored. 134.2 might work but you're starting out a little south of his sky. If those don't work call Mugu approach 124.7 if you're staying at 4500 or 128.65 if you're going higher when you're around Point Dume.
 
coma24 said:
That is correct, however, you could advise ATC that you'd like to descend and break off the route to the west prior to exiting the Bravo. The bulk of the Bravo traffic there will be jet arrivals on the SADDE STAR descending to 7k, plus a smattering of jets on the GMN/CASTA SIDs. Given that you can hustle down below the Bravo from 6500 to 4500 in about 3 minutes, I'd be surprised if they wouldn't let you do it. If, on the off chance that they don't let you do it, the additional ground track is not much longer and you can rejoin the coast fairly easily.

The miniroute is certainly an option, but you'd need to drop down from your normal cruise altitude (presumably) and there's a lot more radio work for it.
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Thanks! This sounds fun and I'll definitely consider it.
 
MAKG1 said:
And there is a pretty big active TFR just north of Santa Barbara. Your path clips it. I'd just steer clear, as a big fire can make for IMC at higher altitudes than the marine layer, depending on prevailing winds.
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I flew from KCCB to Bakersfield on Tuesday over the Tejon Pass, and it was pretty smoky at 8500'. Still very safe for VFR, but I wasn't expecting that much smoke.
 
coma24 said:
That is correct, however, you could advise ATC that you'd like to descend and break off the route to the west prior to exiting the Bravo.
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register@teamandras.com said:
Thanks! This sounds fun and I'll definitely consider it.
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If you are on the Coastal Route...once you cross LAX VOR you can request direct SBA. Do not even bother asking till you cross over LAX...same thing southbound.

SoCal RV Flyer said:
I flew from KCCB to Bakersfield on Tuesday over the Tejon Pass, and it was pretty smoky at 8500'. Still very safe for VFR, but I wasn't expecting that much smoke.
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I just flew up and down CA along 101...it was dang near IMC at times everywhere between 5500 and 9500 with all three TFRs active. For the OP's route, stay WEST of the TFR near SBA on your way up and you will be good.
 
Using SFRA, FF is terminated. You have to make new radio calls to pick it up on the other side, though once you're on the north side over SMO, it can be challenging getting a word in with SoCal.

I did this last Saturday from TOA to MRY since the mini route (my preferred route) was closed due to the marine layer offshore. I picked up FF over Pacific Palisades once I could get in a word in. If you're sticking to the coast (Pacific Palisades, Malibu, Pt Dume), 124.2 is where you'll be for a bit till they give you to Mugu at 128.65. I was actually cleared to climb into the Bravo for the first time ever last week after I got flight following. I normally fly out from under it then go up around VTU.

When I go to SBP to visit family, I go VTU -> RZS -> SBP once I'm clear of the Bravo. The fire around RZS sucks. When I went up last week, I went up at 8500, and was above everything except the main plume which I was offset from. But when we came home the TFR was at 9000 and I had to come back at 9500... and even then some of the smoke was going up to ~13k. I was VFR the whole time but visibility below me got a bit squiffy till I crossed the mountains. I prefer the coast when I go up, but keep in mind that you may have to have a plan B around SBA if conditions still suck as much as they did last week.
 
I think I'll fly down San Diego way until they get these fires under control. Try the restaurant at Gillespie Field...good eats!!
 
Summer fire season is ending about now, with Santa Ana fires (that typically develop nearer the coast) picking up as we get into fall. I'm just saying, depending on the law of averages, sometimes there are going to be more fires in the vicinity, sometimes fewer. I prefer to fly when (and where) there are fewer, for better visibility. The fewer there are, and knowing wind direction, you can pick your flight path to avoid a lot of it.

It's simply trying to fly where the fires aren't.
 
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SoCal RV Flyer said:
Summer fire season is ending about now, with Santa Ana fires (that typically develop nearer the coast) picking up as we get into fall. I'm just saying, depending on the law of averages, sometimes there are going to be more fires in the vicinity, sometimes fewer. I prefer to fly when (and where) there are fewer, for better visibility. The fewer there are, and knowing wind direction, you can pick your flight path to avoid a lot of it.

It's simply trying to fly where the fires aren't.
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Sucks when we now have a summer fire season and a fall fire season. LoL
 
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