Night limitation on a pilot certificate?

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gtcfi

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gtcfi
I flew with a pilot recently who has a "night flying prohibited" limitation on his pilot certificate, which I have never seen before. He states this is because of a color vision deficiency. He says the DPE put this on his PPL, which he earned in 2011, because his medical had the "not valid for night flying or color signal control" limitation on it. His more recent medical, issued last year, has no limitations, because the AME didn't check his color vision.

Has anyone seen this before? Are they putting color vision limitations on the pilot certificate now?

Just want to be sure there wasn't a mistake here, so I can advise the pilot if he needs to get it corrected or not.

BTW, we are not in Alaska, so this isn't the limitation one would get if they trained in Alaska during the summer.
 
Thanks, but to be clear, I am not asking about the color vision tests or the process to get a restriction removed. I have been through that process myself, and have helped others through it.

I am asking if anyone has seen a color vision night restriction on a PILOT certificate rather than on the MEDICAL certificate.

I have seen many pilots over the years with the restriction on their medical, but never one with the restriction on their pilot certificate. The FAA's "Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners" addresses only adding and removing the restriction from medical certificates. A search of FSIMS did not turn up anything about night limitations on pilot certificates, other than the trained-in-Alaska situation (which has to be removed within 12 calendar months).
 
I have NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED on mine...as well as my medical. I failed the color vision test on my medical and have the "Not valid for night flight by color signal control." Since I had the limitation, I never did received any night dual instruction. Because of that, it was placed as a limitation on my pilot certificate as well as the statement on my medical.

At the time, I was only flying a Cub or other non-electrical airplanes, I never saw a need for it. I never attempted a SODA for the medical. If I did and passed (unlikely) I suppose I could get the necessary night dual and have the restriction removed. After 38 years, I'm not seeing that ever happening through. I'm a day VFR guy (as are my planes) and perfectly content with it.
 
The license restriction is probably because the applicant did not have the required night training in order to take his PPL checkride. The DPE is required to place the restriction on his license. While the medical is probably the reason he did not complete the night training, the restriction on his license is not directly due to the medical.

§61.110 Night flying exceptions.
(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109(d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation “Night flying prohibited.” This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109(d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as appropriate.
 
midwestpa24 said:
The license restriction is probably because the applicant did not have the required night training in order to take his PPL checkride. The DPE is required to place the restriction on his license. While the medical is probably the reason he did not complete the night training, the restriction on his license is not directly due to the medical.

§61.110 Night flying exceptions.
(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109(d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation “Night flying prohibited.” This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109(d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as appropriate.
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Probably not, unless the checkride was in Alaska.

If you look at 61.109(d)(2), (i)(2) and (j)(2), those deal with private certificates in gyroplanes, powered parachutes and weight-shift control aircraft. So, if we are talking a private pilot with an airplane rating, it's not 61.110 unless the checkride was in Alaska.

There used to be a more generalized option for a private pilot to forego night training and get the limitation but I'm pretty sure that went away in the big 1997 Part 61 revision. Pilots who had the restriction were grandfathered but this post says this was more recent.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Probably not, unless the checkride was in Alaska.

If you look at 61.109(d)(2), (i)(2) and (j)(2), those deal with private certificates in gyroplanes, powered parachutes and weight-shift control aircraft. So, if we are talking a private pilot with an airplane rating, it's not 61.110 unless the checkride was in Alaska.

There used to be a more generalized option for a private pilot to forego night training and get the limitation but I'm pretty sure that went away in the big 1997 Part 61 revision. Pilots who had the restriction were grandfathered but this post says this was more recent.
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Ok I may have found the wrong reference, but I'm pretty sure the same restriction exists. At least it was on the CFI written I just took.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Ok I may have found the wrong reference, but I'm pretty sure the same restriction exists. At least it was on the CFI written I just took.
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The restriction exists, but is of vey limited applicability.
 
Yup, a restriction can be put on a pilot certificate. I have 'no circling approach' on my type ratings for a couple of jets I flew. So yeah, one has to be able to make out position lights, obstruction lights, runway and airport lighting, etc. so I can understand the restriction on the PC.
 
There may certainly be one but I am not aware of any basis for including a NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED limitation on a pilot certificate originally issued since 1997 other that those provided for in 61.110 and in the FSIMS discussions of the subject - Alaska, hydroplanes, powered parachutes, and weight-shift control aircraft.

I'd definitely be interested in seeing one if it exists.
 
I don't understand why having a restriction on your medical prohibits you from doing night flight training.
 
flyingron said:
I don't understand why having a restriction on your medical prohibits you from doing night flight training.
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I wouldn't, just not as PIC is what I would understand it to mean. Receiving night instruction, sure.
 
The medical restriction didn't preclude my night training. I asked why I had to have it if I was never going to be able to exercise it. I was told I didn't have to have it and opted out of formal training. I have flown at night with other pilots and can actually see colors much more clearly. I could have the restriction removed easily enough, but I have no reason to pursue it.
 
You ought to man, flying at night can be a beautiful peaceful time.

appr lts @ night.jpg night_flight.jpg Night flt - witch.jpg Night-flight-bat.jpg Night-instr panel.jpg NYC at night.jpg


Even this guy loves it at night!

Santa at night.jpg
 
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Unfortunately, getting the restriction removed from my plastic won't change the restriction on the medical... I'm also based on an unlighted grass field which adds to the logistics of night flying. I do enjoy night flying which I've done, but just local stuff. Now, with the new reformed Class III medical standards, I don't know how that will work. Maybe if a 2-3 years when I retire, I'll pursue it. Even then, it would just be local stuff.
 
I think they put some type of remarks on the medical if you pass the night demonstration check. Either that or it's removed entirely with a letter from the examiner, something like that perhaps.
 
arnoha said:
Well, if it's useless to you and you know it, it's dollars and delay for no good reason.
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By that argument, the instrument training is dollars and delay for no reason since as a private pilot (without an instrument rating), you're not supposed to be flying instruments either.
 
flyingron said:
By that argument, the instrument training is dollars and delay for no reason since as a private pilot (without an instrument rating), you're not supposed to be flying instruments either.
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Sure, that argument could be made. But it could be made of a lot of things that available to a private pilot that we also don't train for. We are required to stall, but not required to spin. A steep turn is required, but a wing-over is not. You can't require all possible scenarios. In this case, avoiding night flight is actually pretty damn easy. Avoiding IMC is harder (though still well within the realm of doable). Someone stuck IMC as a required training point. For a while (sounds like before 96), night flight had ways out. Looks like it's not clear if it's still the case outside Alaska.

If you are unable to fly at night, I can see some value in trying it anyway. I can't see much value in requiring it legally, though. And if it isn't legally required, I'm going to get my cert first, then add on anything I felt I needed that the law didn't require.
 
Color vision as a limit to flying; maybe the next PBOR can get this silly thing removed from the regs.
 
My color vision is much better at night as the other poster stated. It's amazing they do this. I did the SODA anyways but I dont fly much at night unless I'm coming home late or something....
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Color vision as a limit to flying; maybe the next PBOR can get this silly thing removed from the regs.
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Think about that - do you really want Congress with its political whims - the folks who brought us the ATP rule and it's $5,000 knowledge test entry cost - regulating the smallest aviation details? Especially one so easy to bypass as this one?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Think about that - do you really want Congress with its political whims - the folks who brought us the ATP rule and it's $5,000 knowledge test entry cost - regulating the smallest aviation details? Especially one so easy to bypass as this one?
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I haven't been keeping track: What makes the entry cost for the ATP knowledge test $5,000?
 
I have that restriction on mine as well, because I failed the color test with my DME. As such, they surmise that we can't tell the difference between the white, green, or red color signals that we would get from the tower in a comms failure situation. While this may or may not be true, there are only a few ways to remove this limitation - a SODA test with an FAA representative at an actual tower or some difficult-to-find-and-somewhat-expensive-alternative-color-tests given by what seems to be a select few physicians in places nowhere close to me. Under the current regs, if you fail the SODA test during the day and again fail at night, the restriction lives with you forever with no other chances of removal. Also under the current regs, if you find a site that can provide the alternative color testing, this would have to be done each time before you renew your medical.

So, like another pilot stated, I chose to leave it on since I don't fly at night. I'm interested to see if the upcoming reg changes would allow me to forego the restriction.

Time will tell...
 
flyingron said:
Peoria is only a 5 hour drive from Bryan, I think.
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Is there a location there that offers the alternative Farnsworth Lantern or other similar tests Ron? If so, thanks for the info. I may wait to see what happens with the new regs first...
 
Aeromedicaldoc.com is Bruce Chien and he's in Peoria. He has an entire battery of tests for colorblindness starting with well maintained copies of several different of the test plates that he has you view in his "thermonuclear chamber" essentially the glass enclosed lobby of his building...lots of natural light. If that doesn't work he has several of the alternative tests. With luck, you may get away with a regular issuance.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Think about that - do you really want Congress with its political whims - the folks who brought us the ATP rule and it's $5,000 knowledge test entry cost - regulating the smallest aviation details?
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I guess you're right. Ah, but don't forget our rule here at POA, if you shoot someone's method down, you have to provide one that will work!
 
Palmpilot said:
I haven't been keeping track: What makes the entry cost for the ATP knowledge test $5,000?
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Take a look at the requirements in 61.156, including 30 hours of classroom training from an authorized Part 121, 135, 141, or 142 providers with special curricula and 10 hours of simulator training including 6 hours in a Level C simulator that represents an airliner.

That's just to be able to take the knowledge test. ATP Flight School, just one of the providers, does it at a fixed price of $4,995. Sporty's Academy, pertnering with and airline, is a little cheaper at $4,595 ATP. There's a reason so many took their knowledge test before the reg went into effect at the end of July 2014.

That was part of the Congressional reaction to the Colgan crash.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I guess you're right. Ah, but don't forget our rule here at POA, if you shoot someone's method down, you have to provide one that will work!
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What's wrong with the current method of showing that one can adequately see and respond to ATC light signals despite the color deficiency via an alternative test done by the pilot's optometrist or ophthalmologist or a brief operational flight with the FAA? There's a good description of it on the AOPA website here.

A Fedex crash + NTSB report identifying color deficiency as a causal factor = a requirement that one demonstrate it is not a problem for them doesn't strike me as the craziest of equations or overreactions.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Take a look at the requirements in 61.156, including 30 hours of classroom training from an authorized Part 121, 135, 141, or 142 providers with special curricula and 10 hours of simulator training including 6 hours in a Level C simulator that represents an airliner.

That's just to be able to take the knowledge test. ATP Flight School, just one of the providers, does it at a fixed price of $4,995. Sporty's Academy, pertnering with and airline, is a little cheaper at $4,595 ATP. There's a reason so many took their knowledge test before the reg went into effect at the end of July 2014.

That was part of the Congressional reaction to the Colgan crash.
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Wow - now I see how lucky we are that PBOR2 didn't come out even worse!
 
midlifeflyer said:
A Fedex crash + NTSB report identifying color deficiency as a causal factor
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Most of that report chasing down the FO's color vision was a joke. Three pilots and no one saw 40 seconds of 4/4 red papi's? They weren't all color blind. They weren't even looking at the thing.
The only important part in the report relating to the papi is on page 65: like most pilots and most approaches, pilots are too distracted by other things to even see it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
What's wrong with the current method of showing that one can adequately see and respond to ATC light signals despite the color deficiency via an alternative test done by the pilot's optometrist or ophthalmologist or a brief operational flight with the FAA? There's a good description of it on the AOPA website here.
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Because the light gun test is problematic and it is still a SODA you have to carry forever. If you can get an AME to give you a well controlled and accepted test that you can pass, you're set.
 
flyingron said:
Because the light gun test is problematic and it is still a SODA you have to carry forever. If you can get an AME to give you a well controlled and accepted test that you can pass, you're set.
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That doesn't really respond to my post which asks
midlifeflyer said:
What's wrong with the current method of showing that one can adequately see and respond to ATC light signals despite the color deficiency via an alternative test done by the pilot's optometrist or ophthalmologist or a brief operational flight with the FAA? There's a good description of it on the AOPA website here.
Click to expand...
 
I failed the color test on my initial medical, but passed the other alternative test at my opthalmologist and now have a letter (Not a SODA) that allows me to skip the color test for all classes of medical for the rest of my life with no retesting or recertification. Found out the process from AOPA way back when.
 
I sent a PP applicant to his ride without night training because he didn't want night priveleges.
No clue, but the DE said no problem.
 
I got the official word from the FSDO: A night limitation on a pilot certificate due to a color vision deficiency is an error. The pilot must contact the FSDO to have the limitation removed.
 
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