What happens if I don't file an alternate?

[Velocity173]

I'm intrigued - several posters above state that ATC has no clue what the alternate is. Is this true? False? True in normal circumstances but they can access it if SHTF?

No, the alternate doesn't show up on a flight progress strip. Doesn't even show up in the computer if you do a "flight plan readout" on the aircraft. The controller could call AFSS in the event of 7600 but even that isn't necessary. You have no obligation to fly to that alternate in the event of MA. The alternate is nothing more than an FAA planning requirement for fuel BEFORE you depart. After you depart, you can go wherever you want as long as it meets your equipment and fuel reserves.

Example, years ago I had several F-5s inbound to my facility. On the handoff from the first one center told me each was requesting a PAR and if they couldn't get in, they'd go to CHS. Each of them did a PAR, went missed, I had flight data amend their destination to CHS on the go, flashed them to CHS and was done. Had no idea where their alternate was and it didn't matter. A 10 second flight plan amendment is all it takes.

 

[mscard88]

You didn't file an alternate! Shame shame. You get the treatment boy!

If you fail to file a required alternate, you will only suffer consequences if for any reason, the FAA has cause to examine the details of your flight. Even if it had nothing to do with alternates, if the FAA has a reason to scrutinize your flight, they will hammer you for any infraction they come across. Similar to taking off without legal minimum fuel for the planned flight--the FAA won't care until they do.

As covered, no one know but you. ATC will ask your intentions and/or where ya want to go. Even if you did file an alternate you can still go elsewhere. But, as Witmo wrote, if something happens and the FAA gets involved, well, Witmo said it.

 

[tiger]

No, the alternate doesn't show up on a flight progress strip. Doesn't even show up in the computer if you do a "flight plan readout" on the aircraft. The controller could call AFSS in the event of 7600 but even that isn't necessary. You have no obligation to fly to that alternate in the event of MA. The alternate is nothing more than an FAA planning requirement for fuel BEFORE you depart. After you depart, you can go wherever you want as long as it meets your equipment and fuel reserves.

Example, years I had several F-5s inbound to my facility. On the handoff from the first one center told me each was requesting a PAR and if they couldn't get in, they'd go to CHS. Each of them did a PAR, went missed, I had flight data amend their destination to CHS on the go, flashed them to CHS and was done. Had no idea where their alternate was and it didn't matter. A 10 second flight plan amendment is all it takes.

Thanks, yeah - I know what it does and doesn't mean for the pilot, but was curious about James' argument that it is also a "heads up" for ATC. Doesn't seem that it can really serve that latter function.

 

[roncachamp]

Is the filed flight plan rejected by the system? When I try to pick up my clearance am I slapped on the wrist and asked for my alternate? Can I pick up the clearance and then get busted for not having an alternate filed?

ATC won't know or care that you didn't file an alternate.

 

[roncachamp]

Overall it's just to give ATC a heads up if things go kaka, don't file and show on the ILS at a major airport out of no where, no bueno

Not much of a heads up given that a filed alternate is not sent to ATC.

 

[James331]

Not much of a heads up given that a filed alternate is not sent to ATC.

I know you're a tower controller and all, but why does it show up on the ICAO flight plan listing then?

That also would mean in the event of a not being able to get into your desired airport with a comms failure, ATC would have no idea where you were heading next??

 

[roncachamp]

I know you're a tower controller and all, but why does it show up on the ICAO flight plan listing then?

Don't know. Don't care.

That also would mean in the event of a not being able to get into your desired airport with a comms failure, ATC would have no idea where you were heading next??

In that event ATC would have no idea where you were heading next even if you had filed an alternate. There's no requirement for the pilot to proceed to a filed alternate.

 

[Velocity173]

That's just a flight plan James. Half that crap (color, pilots name, # pax, fuel on board etc) doesn't show up on a flight progress strip or even a flight plan readout. Also, being a tower controller has nothing to do with anything. Their computer upstairs, is the same downstairs.

 

[James331]

Being a controller would put him in a position to know a little more about the other side of the screen wouldn't it?

 

[James331]

Don't know. Don't care...

That's sad

 

[Velocity173]

Being a controller would put him in a position to know a little more about the other side of the screen wouldn't it?

Yeah, it would. I believe Steven is an instrument pilot as well.

 

[roncachamp]

That's sad

Why?

 

[roncachamp]

Being a controller would put him in a position to know a little more about the other side of the screen wouldn't it?

Former tower, approach, and center controller. Three years ago the tower chief told me to go home and never return.

 

[James331]

Why?

Being completely content with your level of understanding and not wanting to expand your knowledge of your profession.


Side note, nice signature!

 

[flyingron]

The normal information provided to ATC doesn't have it. They can go pull it up from the originally filed plan but frankly, in the case of lost comms, they're just going to clear the way as they don't really know if you're going to the alternate or not (there's no requirement that you do so). They only start wondering about the filed alternate when you disappear and it's provided to the S&R process.

 

[roncachamp]

Being completely content with your level of understanding and not wanting to expand your knowledge of your profession.

Please explain how knowing why the filed alternate shows up on the ICAO flight plan listing would have expanded my knowledge of my former profession.

 

[mscard88]

Listen up, controllers don't know nor care whether you filed an alternate or not. A flight progress strip is all a controller has in front of him/her. And there is no alternate on it. If you go missed they're just going to ask for your intentions. YOU decide where you want to go next, not ATC, not FSS, not the FAA, YOU. Now ask if there's an airport with weather good enough to get in, yeah they'll help you with that. But if you get in a situation where you don't know what or where you're going to do/go next, you'd better fess up so they (ATC) can help you.

 

[roncachamp]

Being completely content with your level of understanding and not wanting to expand your knowledge of your profession.

Please explain how knowing why the filed alternate shows up on the ICAO flight plan listing would have expanded my knowledge of my former profession.

 

[tiger]

If you go missed they're just going to ask for your intentions. YOU decide where you want to go next, not ATC, not FSS, not the FAA, YOU. Now ask if there's an airport with weather good enough to get in, yeah they'll help you with that. But if you get in a situation where you don't know what or where you're going to do/go next, you'd better fess up so they (ATC) can help you.

Yes, but the context of the last few posts was lost comm. You wouldn't be "on the ILS of a major airport out of no where", and ATC wouldn't have any use at all for a "heads-up" from the flight plan if you were still talking.

Now, for the reasons already rehearsed the flight plan would be of limited value lost comms even if ATC could see it, as nothing requires you to go the filed alternate, but anyway...

 

[James331]

Please explain how knowing why the filed alternate shows up on the ICAO flight plan listing would have expanded my knowledge of my former profession.

?

Just personalities, I used to cut the shirt tails off students after solo, never really thought about it, one student asks what it's all about, so I decided to find out. Didn't really change my performance as a CFI, but it would bother me if I would have never looked it up.

Guess I was just always that annoying "why?" kid

 

[roncachamp]

?

Just personalities, I used to cut the shirt tails off students after solo, never really thought about it, one student asks what it's all about, so I decided to find out. Didn't really change my performance as a CFI, but it would bother me if I would have never looked it up.

Guess I was just always that annoying "why?" kid

That's sad.

 

[Sundancer]

Confession. I don't file an alternate unless I need to. . .the one time I went missed and diverted, I didn't actually remember which airport I had used as an alternate. About an hour out, it was looking like the ceiling would be a bit too low, so I started checking around, picked a place with near-VFR reporting, and went there after going missed. Never occured to me the alternate was relevant, to me or the approach controller. He just asked my intentions, said O.K., gave me the weather at the new destination, and that was that.

 

[bobmrg]

I'm intrigued - several posters above state that ATC has no clue what the alternate is. Is this true? False? True in normal circumstances but they can access it if SHTF?

True for now, but this will change with the switchover to ICAO. in January 2017. ATC will have access to your flight plan (not necessarily at a controller position) in case you don't arrive at your destination. Understand that
ATC and FSS are two different agencies under the umbrella of the FAA.

Bob Gardner

 

[mscard88]

Confession. I don't file an alternate unless I need to. . .the one time I went missed and diverted, I didn't actually remember which airport I had used as an alternate. About an hour out, it was looking like the ceiling would be a bit too low, so I started checking around, picked a place with near-VFR reporting, and went there after going missed. Never occured to me the alternate was relevant, to me or the approach controller. He just asked my intentions, said O.K., gave me the weather at the new destination, and that was that.

Welllll ever hear of the 1-2-3 rule? Fuel requirements?

 

[roncachamp]

True for now, but this will change with the switchover to ICAO. in January 2017. ATC will have access to your flight plan (not necessarily at a controller position) in case you don't arrive at your destination. Understand that
ATC and FSS are two different agencies under the umbrella of the FAA.

I assumed that kind of flight plan access had always been available to ATC, by a phone call to FSS. I can't think of a reason to make such a call though, all the pertinent information is already sent to ATC.

 

[Sundancer]

Welllll ever hear of the 1-2-3 rule? Fuel requirements?

What about them??? "need to" means when required. Otherwise, I don't bother. . . I assume the FAA intent is to get you to consider an alternate you can get into (weather) and have enough remaining fuel to do so. You'd have to be a moron to blast off with a destination forecast near or below minimums and not have an "out" in mind. . .

 

[mscard88]

'k, assumed you meant all the time, everytime, my bad.

 

[denverpilot]

The normal information provided to ATC doesn't have it. They can go pull it up from the originally filed plan but frankly, in the case of lost comms, they're just going to clear the way as they don't really know if you're going to the alternate or not (there's no requirement that you do so). They only start wondering about the filed alternate when you disappear and it's provided to the S&R process.

One must ask: Clear what way? If you go missed and NORDO and they don't have your alternate (even though you're not required to fly to it, I know) there's nothing to go on as to where to "clear".

Are you coming back for another shot at it? Are you headed to VMC? Are you going to your alternate?

They apparently don't know and as Stephen said, don't care.

 

[roncachamp]

One must ask: Clear what way? If you go missed and NORDO and they don't have your alternate (even though you're not required to fly to it, I know) there's nothing to go on as to where to "clear".

Are you coming back for another shot at it? Are you headed to VMC? Are you going to your alternate?

They apparently don't know and as Stephen said, don't care.

Steven didn't say they don't care where you're going, he said he doesn't care why the ICAO flight plan listing shows the alternate.

 

[denverpilot]

Steven didn't say they don't care where you're going, he said he doesn't care why the ICAO flight plan listing shows the alternate.

Wasn't clear. Okay, but same problem exists... You don't know. So what did you guys clear when that happens?

 

[roncachamp]

Wasn't clear. Okay, but same problem exists... You don't know. So what did you guys clear when that happens?

Never had a NORDO miss an approach.

 

[denverpilot]

Never had a NORDO miss an approach.

Well technically they'd have to go NORDO as they missed or they wouldn't have ever been on the approach right?

But Roger on the not having had one. I'm just curious. They key it up to tell you they just missed and the radio decides then is a good time to short out and pops the master... (Not supposed to happen either, but just coming up with a dumb way to have it occur...)

 

[roncachamp]

Well technically they'd have to go NORDO as they missed or they wouldn't have ever been on the approach right?

Because they couldn't have received clearance for the approach if they had gone NORDO before nearing their destination?

 

[denverpilot]

Because they couldn't have received clearance for the approach if they had gone NORDO before nearing their destination?

Well, OK... For Chrissakes. You know what I'm asking. They're cleared for the approach and they go NORDO after that and miss. What gets "cleared"?

 

[roncachamp]

Well, OK... For Chrissakes. You know what I'm asking. They're cleared for the approach and they go NORDO after that and miss. What gets "cleared"?

No, I don't know what you're asking when you write; "Well technically they'd have to go NORDO as they missed or they wouldn't have ever been on the approach right?"

 

[denverpilot]

No, I don't know what you're asking when you write; "Well technically they'd have to go NORDO as they missed or they wouldn't have ever been on the approach right?"

Ok, you're obviously not going to answer the question and are just trolling as usual. Enjoy retirement.

 

[Velocity173]

Ok, you're obviously not going to answer the question and are just trolling as usual. Enjoy retirement.

You're referring to clearing other aircraft out of the way of the NORDO aircraft correct? Well, there's no standard procedure for that.

You can try and anticipate a pilot's actions because of 91.185 but that leaves a few what ifs. Like you said, the pilot could come back and try another approach, they might head off to a VMC field, they might land at their alternate or if their alternate doesn't look good, go to a different alternate.

Like Steven, never seen an aircraft that couldn't get in to their destination and then went 7600. If it did happen, yes, I would've had flight data call AFSS and get the pilot's alternate because there's a good chance they'll be heading that way. That would take all of a minute to get. After that, you monitor the track of the aircraft. Basic radar sep from them would be 1000 vert or 3 miles horz. Vector or assign altitudes to other aircraft to deconflict. If the aircraft appears to be leaving your airspace, handoff the aircraft to the next facility and let them monitor the aircraft's progress.

 

[roncachamp]

You can try and anticipate a pilot's actions because of 91.185 but that leaves a few what ifs. Like you said, the pilot could come back and try another approach, they might head off to a VMC field, they might land at their alternate or if their alternate doesn't look good, go to a different alternate.

91.185 says nothing about flight beyond the destination airport. The AIM and ATC order offer practically nothing as well, essentially saying that it's an emergency situation which throws all the rules out anyway.

 

[Velocity173]

91.185 says nothing about flight beyond the destination airport. The AIM and ATC order offer practically nothing as well, essentially saying that it's an emergency situation which throws all the rules out anyway.

I agree. I was referring to an aircraft that goes lost commo in general and not specifically after they've left their destination. Although the pilot could apply provisions of 91.185 after going missed, it's anyone's guess to their real intentions.

 

[James331]

Because they couldn't have received clearance for the approach if they had gone NORDO before nearing their destination?

I get that you can make the call and get the alternate, just don't see why you should have to.

It's not that far of a stretch to see where you would need it.

If you're 7600 in the LIFR soup you're still going to be shooting the approach, if you ended up going missed and going to the planned alternate, it seems silly that ATC doesn't know/care where they should expect this 7600 IMC airplane. I guess if it's around a place with great radar that's one thing, but if you're below their coverage, what are they going to do, hold all IFR departures in the entire area till you make a phone call?


Could see this happening too, maybe pick up enough ice in your antennas, up the in north where reception is spotty in the first place, IFR/LIFR day. It is what it is, but it seems silly to make plans for your IFR flight and keep those plans from ATC, the people who are coordinating your flight.