Stupid student pilot crashed my discovery flight plane

My club keys all the planes alike and all members have a key. It's on the member to obey the rules. We're all supposed to be adults, and shouldn't need babysitters. Sometimes people have to act like children though.
 
It is amazing the abuse some planes take by student pilots. We all were there at one point so I'm not looking to throw stones here but I'm just in awe of how sturdy Cessna and Piper make airplanes.
 
jspilot said:
It is amazing the abuse some planes take by student pilots. We all were there at one point so I'm not looking to throw stones here but I'm just in awe of how sturdy Cessna and Piper make airplanes.
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I bought my first airplane (a '57 C172) and learned how to fly in it. I can't tell you how many times, after one of my more "wonderful" landings, my instructor would look over and say, "ha! I'm damned glad this is your airplane and not mine!" :confused:
 
As a student let me just say. Yes this is stupid and we are all not this stupid. That is all
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Pics: (I know they're tiny)
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Ah, yes-the seldom-seen 152RG with the adjustable thrust line option...
 
Q-tip wings! Cool. Must make it fasterrrrrrrr! :D:D

Totaled unfortunately. Part it out.
 
BigBadLou said:
I don't think it matters much that it was a student. You have no idea how many "seasoned" pilots I see do PIO. First nose bounce, I remain quiet, second nose bounce, I say "add power, power", third bounce, I am bracing for impact. So far, I am still here to tell the story.
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This is so true. I once had to tell an instrument rated pilot to go around because she seemed determined to prang her nose gear. Classic PIO/porpoise trying to plant the plane on the runway. I let it go for two bounces then had to say something - wasn't going to let someone injure a beautiful Cardinal for no reason.
 
This is why you teach that there is a ratchet on the yoke, once you pull it back crossing the threshold you can't put it back in, if she balloons just wait for her to settle back down, burp in a little power if needed to cushion it, if you're eating up too much runway go ahead and go around, tons of options, PIO isn't one of them.

If I see a student pumping the yoke while crossing the threshold, I'll take control of the plane, well land and do some debrief and I'll take them all the way through first solo again, because there was a HUGE issue in their old training somewhere if they are doing that.

Landing on the nose wheel isn't something I'll let happen, huge fan of letting students make mistakes to learn, but I'm just not comfortable landing nose wheel first.
 
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mulligan said:
I have to look at my log book but I do not believe I was limited to Winds at 20 knots. I believe I was limited to Cross Winds at 20 knots. Big difference as if the winds were down the pipe, I was good to go. Now my personal minimums would not have allowed it but I was signed off to fly in much more then I would have wanted to.
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I'd be surprised if an instructor put a limitation on a student pilot higher than the demonstrated crosswind. Most planes can handle more but a student pilot? Why hang your neck out?
 
Dan Thomas said:
You don't understand PIO?
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Sounds like he was properly trained.

I showed a few of my students that Piper PIO video a couple years ago and they all didn't understand how he could get the plane into a situation like that, these were sub 20hr soloed students.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
You don't understand PIO?
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Hell no I don't understand PIO. I didn't even know it was a thing until this conversation. And that video boggles my freakin' mind...

I was taught from DAY ONE that if you bounce the first time (Cessna 172 springy legs) then you carried too much speed into it or didn't flare properly... and that after the first bounce, do NOT lower the nose. Your two options are add a touch of power to cushion the next contact, or go around. It was drilled home from my first landing that you do NOT lower the nose to correct for bad landing technique.
 
ircphoenix said:
Hell no I don't understand PIO. I didn't even know it was a thing until this conversation. And that video boggles my freakin' mind...

I was taught from DAY ONE that if you bounce the first time (Cessna 172 springy legs) then you carried too much speed into it or didn't flare properly... and that after the first bounce, do NOT lower the nose. Your two options are add a touch of power to cushion the next contact, or go around. It was drilled home from my first landing that you do NOT lower the nose to correct for bad landing technique.
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They called it porpoising in the faa Airplane Flying Handbook, page 8-31, figure 8-37. Sounds like you were just taught how to avoid it without covering the term PIO. PIO is more general than that though and applies to any oscillation where the pilot and plane are out of sync, as in trying to hit a speed, overshooting, over-correcting, undershooting, repeat, etc.
 
It's discussions like this that make me glad I had PIO trained out of me on day one. To get some cross-wind practice in I took the 172 out in 15 knots gusting 30 the other day. Other than a disconcerting wing drop I didn't have too much trouble. Had to abort during one approach but the others were quite smooth and down the centerline. More people should go up (either with or without an instructor) on a gusty day to get used to landing with strong winds if they're out of practice. 90% of the time it's a non-event but reinforces good habits and highlights bad ones.
 
tehmightypirate said:
It's discussions like this that make me glad I had PIO trained out of me on day one. To get some cross-wind practice in I took the 172 out in 15 knots gusting 30 the other day. Other than a disconcerting wing drop I didn't have too much trouble. Had to abort during one approach but the others were quite smooth and down the centerline. More people should go up (either with or without an instructor) on a gusty day to get used to landing with strong winds if they're out of practice. 90% of the time it's a non-event but reinforces good habits and highlights bad ones.
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30 knots is no joke in a 172 - was it direct across? IME That strong of a crosswind in the 172 will result in running out of rudder authority and side loading the gear.
 
I guess through my flying I've just been pretty conservative with how I handle things. If things don't look right on an approach without some power or a slip fixing it, I generally will just go around. There's no need to plant the airplane down so hard that you get behind the aircraft that much. I guess if you have some sort of emergency then I could see needing to get the plane down... but a controlled landing still seems like the best option for that too.

But again, boggles my mind.
 
FWIW the airplane I soloed in was destroyed in an almost identical accident to the one in the OP.
 
DavidWhite said:
30 knots is no joke in a 172 - was it direct across? IME That strong of a crosswind in the 172 will result in running out of rudder authority and side loading the gear.
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30kts shouldn't be that big of a issue, 0 flap shouldn't be too much of a pucker factor.
 
ircphoenix said:
Hell no I don't understand PIO. I didn't even know it was a thing until this conversation. And that video boggles my freakin' mind...

I was taught from DAY ONE that if you bounce the first time (Cessna 172 springy legs) then you carried too much speed into it or didn't flare properly... and that after the first bounce, do NOT lower the nose. Your two options are add a touch of power to cushion the next contact, or go around. It was drilled home from my first landing that you do NOT lower the nose to correct for bad landing technique.
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That's how I was taught as well. In my Cardinal, I will sometimes just hold back pressure after the first bounce; but a second bounce always prompts a touch of power on a long runway, or a go-around otherwise.

I simply don't understand why a pilot would deliberately hold a flat attitude while landing a tricycle gear airplane. FLARE, fercrissake. :mad:
 
mikeinbama said:
Granted I have flown most of my time in a pretty docile Warrior, but I have never bounced, I hope I am not jinxing myself. I have always thought that I would put in the power on the first bounce.
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You don't always have to, although power usually helps. Speaking about fundamentals, the kind of PIO that we know as "porpoising" arises from the airplane changing its attitude nose-up suddenly because of the contact with the ground. The sudden change may be enough to be greater than the change in the vector of the C.M.. In such a case, the AoA increases suddenly, and so does the lift. That, and not the springy gear is what bounces the airplane off the ground.

The theory tells us, that you can only porpoise a tricycle gear airplane by landing on the nose gear. If you land on the mains, the angle of attack will decrease, not increase, the lift will reduce, and the resulting bounce will not have the potential to grow in amplitude. Russian pilots say about this landing "gave a goat" and would mock your flying skills, but there will be no dangerous porpoising.

Next logical step that follows is to force the airplane to land on the mains (or in high enough nose-up attitude, in case of a taildragger), by giving it a vigorous but well-judged nose-up elevator input. You must not let it stall at the top of the bounce though, which is where the difficulty lies. When I had my meeting with porpoise, I resorted to power, which is what all n00bs do nowadays, and Dawn said something to the effect, "bah, I'd just pull my way out of this easily".
 
Dan Thomas said:
There's a video on Youtube of a low-wing piper doing exactly that.
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That's one famous video, although it's a little sad that the stolen instance has more views than the original. However, here's one that's even funnier. Count the ways: it's a twin, it's a turboprop, the solo student receives radio instructions from the Flight Manager (make sure to reduce the sound volume, it's very loud). You would not think we would let anyone who can't deal with porpoising to fly an airliner? Welcome to the new world of ab-initio airline training, soon coming to these united states too.

 
zaitcev said:
That's one famous video, although it's a little sad that the stolen instance has more views than the original. However, here's one that's even funnier. Count the ways: it's a twin, it's a turboprop, the solo student receives radio instructions from the Flight Manager (make sure to reduce the sound volume, it's very loud). You would not think we would let anyone who can't deal with porpoising to fly an airliner? Welcome to the new world of ab-initio airline training, soon coming to these united states too.

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Wow that is truly unreal. The guy never flared once and bounced the plane like a basketball. Such a shame.
 
DavidWhite said:
30 knots is no joke in a 172 - was it direct across? IME That strong of a crosswind in the 172 will result in running out of rudder authority and side loading the gear.
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I've run across many people that describe any wind not aligned with the runway as a crosswind, and at the full velocity of the wind. They do not seem to understand crosswind component for some reason and that the amount of crosswind you actually have may be relatively small even when the wind is high.

azure said:
I simply don't understand why a pilot would deliberately hold a flat attitude while landing a tricycle gear airplane. FLARE, fercrissake. :mad:
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It may sound simple to you, but if you carry some extra speed into the flare and you're floating along some people want to force the plane onto the ground. That, in my opinion is how the PIO starts. Then it gets worse if you let the PIO keep going rather than correcting it.
 
azure said:
I simply don't understand why a pilot would deliberately hold a flat attitude while landing a tricycle gear airplane. FLARE, fercrissake. :mad:
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Go back to basic aerodynamics. Chapter one. Angle of attack is directly related to airspeed. Less airspeed means a high AoA to maintain flight. More speed means less AoA. A fast approach means that the airplane is less nose-up, and if the pilot tries to flare at that speed the airplane will climb. We call that ballooning. The ONLY fix is to approach at a proper speed, get the power back and the nose coming up somewhat before you get into ground effect, and continue raising the nose as the speed falls until the mains touch. If you land at a high airspeed, the attitude is flat and the nosewheel hits first and we get started on a porpoise.

I don't understand what some pilots can't understand about all that.
 
Dan Thomas said:
A fast approach means that the airplane is less nose-up, and if the pilot tries to flare at that speed the airplane will climb. We call that ballooning.
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Exactly. Here's a fellow student demonstrates while flying N80866:
 
I don't think we *literally* don't understand. We understand the physics behind it. We just can't wrap our heads around the mindset behind the controls.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Go back to basic aerodynamics. Chapter one. Angle of attack is directly related to airspeed. Less airspeed means a high AoA to maintain flight. More speed means less AoA. A fast approach means that the airplane is less nose-up, and if the pilot tries to flare at that speed the airplane will climb. We call that ballooning. The ONLY fix is to approach at a proper speed, get the power back and the nose coming up somewhat before you get into ground effect, and continue raising the nose as the speed falls until the mains touch. If you land at a high airspeed, the attitude is flat and the nosewheel hits first and we get started on a porpoise.
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I have no doubt excessive speed accounts for some cases of flat landings/porpoise incidents. However some pilots deliberately try to plant the airplane on the runway even when approaching at an acceptable speed. IOW they just don't flare. The pilot I was referring to wasn't coming in at all hot. It simply seemed that she had been taught to land that way. The next time around she did the same thing, but somehow managed to get the plane down and stopped. I asked her if she wanted to inspect the nosegear but she declined, saying it was okay.
 
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Anyone ever see an F-16 touchdown, keeping the nose way up there for aerodynamic braking? FBO had a Beech Sundowner for rent. Easy to get into a PIO on Sundowners IMO. Regardless here comes a ANG F-16 driver who rents it, gets into a POI deal, plane totaled. Struck me as strange the way he lands his F-16 but did the opposite with the Sundowner.
 
James331 said:
30kts shouldn't be that big of a issue, 0 flap shouldn't be too much of a pucker factor.
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30 knots across in a 172? what happens as you slow down and lose your rudder effectiveness? Still gonna side load the gear when you bring down your downwind wheel. Granted all the 172s I've ever flown had STOL kits so maybe that makes a big difference.
 
14kts is quite a lot of crosswind for a solo student. I am surprised your limit was so high.
 
So it happened on takeoff. Interesting. Just lost lift.... was thinking maybe full flaps were down but they're up in the photos. So glad the guy is ok. Scary for sure! Probably also a bit scary and humbling to actually see it happen.
 
I have my doubts about some people on here claiming their first solo endorsements "limited" them to 15-30 knots of crosswind. That's beyond the max demonstrated direct crosswind component for these aircraft. I would usually endorse up to 5 knots of crosswind component for student pilots, and cap the max sustained wind to 15 knots until the student had gained confidence in those conditions.

This incident highlights the reason many flight schools do not permit releasing aircraft to student pilots without a staff member giving the okay. From a regulatory standpoint, however, it is perfectly legal to do that. The problem for this student pilot is that he ignored or was unaware of his wind limitation. If a FSDO inspector were to discover that, there would likely be repercussions for the student. The instructor in this case will be fine.
 
Harold Rutila said:
The problem for this student pilot is that he ignored or was unaware of his wind limitation.
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My initial solo endorsement did not have cross-wind limit at all. However, the additional airport endorsements did, and oddly enough they decreased from 10 knots to 7 knots, subject to airport being thought as more challenging. But there were no retroactive limits for the initial airport -- go wild!

In general, I remember having significant difficulty at the time to make sure all ducks were lined up about the weather. At one point, I tried to fly out to a satellite airport that had thunderstorms reported in the vicinity. Nowadays one look at the 3-hour METAR history would tell me it was a bad idea. In the day, it took the FBO staff to talk me out of it. At other time, at my solo XC, I flew through a mountain pass under low clouds because I had no clue what I was doing and it looked legal to me. So, from a personal perspective, I can easily see students making dumb calls that fail to account for very obviously bad weather.
 
scjohnson243 said:
Man, Threads like this make a guy starting his training at the end of next month scared :)
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No need to be scared. Just respect the weather and airplane. And your limitations, whether written by your CFI and/or your own. Most of all enjoy flight and have fun.
 
Harold Rutila said:
This incident highlights the reason many flight schools do not permit releasing aircraft to student pilots without a staff member giving the okay. QUOTE]

Air Force aero clubs have what is called the SOF (supervisor of flying) and I'm sure the Army n Navy aero clubs have something similar. All flights had to go thru that individual before one could take an airplane. Works pretty well in my opinion.
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