Initial instrument training in IMC?

pilot_joe

pilot_joe

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pilot_joe
Here's a question for the CFIIs.

Let's say you have a new Instrument student. He's psyched for his first airplane lesson after doing a couple of lessons in the sims. Problem is, it's solid IFR outside.

We could get an IFR clearance, but what would be the best way to get the IFR clearance and still be able to practice climbs, descents, turns to headings, tracking intercepting VORs, partial panel, all without too much straight and level in between?
 
File for a block altitude. I'd personally just do a lesson in the sim or wait for a better day. The first couple of lessons are all about developing your scan and working on BAI.
 
jordane93 said:
File for a block altitude. I'd personally just do a lesson in the sim or wait for a better day. The first couple of lessons are all about developing your scan and working on BAI.
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Agreed. So I got the whole block altitude thing down, but what about the turning part? Would there be a way of getting a 'block' of airspace to practice turns and so on? I'd imagine if you ask for X block Y altitude, ATC would still want you to fly the route they cleared you to.
 
Yes. Tell ATC the area you want to be in, and the altitudes you like.
 
That's cheating: outside looks just like the low enroute chart.
 
Simple...while IFR in IMC, we just told approach that we were on a training flight and what we wanted to do and asked the best way they wanted us to do it. He gave us a block altitude and some lateral boundaries that worked for him and to check back in when we were ready to move on with a clearance.

This is where plain old English comes in handy...no fancy radio work needed.

That was a very accommodating controller...your results may vary!
 
Ask for a block altitude,and fly a hold on one of the approachs.
 
Shawn said:
Simple...while IFR in IMC, we just told approach that we were on a training flight and what we wanted to do and asked the best way they wanted us to do it. He gave us a block altitude and some lateral boundaries that worked for him and to check back in when we were ready to move on with a clearance.

This is where plain old English comes in handy...no fancy radio work needed.

That was a very accommodating controller...your results may vary!
Click to expand...

Always did this with my instrument students. No big deal. Easy peasy!
 
As a crew chief in a "fleet replacement" training squadron, I spent many hours in the back while the guys up front would do basic instrument training in actual conditions.

Typically, they would file to get out. Then, they'd ask the departure controller for a block assignment. It would go something like, " hold Mission Bay 180 to 210, 5 to 10 DME maintain 4,000' to 7,000', pilot's discretion. Time now one-zero. Expect further clearance four-zero, or pilot's discretion. Remain this frequency." I may not be wording it exactly right. But, this is the best of my recollection.
 
I did it with my instructor during my private training. He took off and got us into the clouds, then I got to try and hold level and straight. We were in and out. I got to make a 360 (with his help) and fly level and straight back to the airport. He did the ILS approach which wasn't that low at all, like 1000' ceilings and the FAF was above the clouds to boot. We didnt ask and I doubt we could have gotten a block of airspace considering where we were (busy airspace) north of west Denver. We were in and out of the clouds, which is typical around here. Not sure I'd call it a lesson, it was more of an excursion. I was happy just to get to fly in a cloud!

But if you are thinking about it now, some things to consider. The biggest is, a beginning student s likely to have trouble just holding straight and level. You can ASK for a block altitude, but ATC doesnt have to give it to you. Then what are you going to do? When you fly IFR, ATC tells you where to fly, and the pilot flies where told. MIght help to call ATC ahead of time and ask them where you might be able to get a block. Might be a long way away. They do have other planes to consider and cant always do it. Some ATC guys wont do it at all, I suspect. Some parts of the country are better for this than others. I know that some places have reliable 1000' ceilings, 1000' thick and you can get on top,then foggles above or whatever and do a real appoach through the clouds, albeit nowhere near minimums. Easy but good introduction for pilots in training. I talked to a guy from Michigan and he said its like that a lot there. Around Colorado, we are usually in and out of the clouds, getting on top etc, fighting high altitudes, ice and dodging T storms. Not often, maybe 1 day out of 20 you will find good, small plane flyable IMC. Best and most interesting IMC I ever found was in California. Like I say it varies, a LOT.

Frankly the idea is intriguing, but has a lot of pitfalls. Be careful and good luck if you try it.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
Some parts of the country are better for this than others. I know that some places have reliable 1000' ceilings, 1000' thick and you can get on top,then foggles above or whatever and do a real appoach through the clouds, albeit nowhere near minimums. Easy but good introduction for pilots in training. I talked to a guy from Michigan and he said its like that a lot there.
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I wouldn't say a lot, but you might get a day or two like that a month in the non-icing part of the year. Good enough to stay current by flying in actual if your schedule is flexible, but you might have to wait a few weeks for a good day. Also, unless you fly out of a field with an ILS or 200 ft LPV you might have to arrange alternate transportation sometimes, as it's rare to find a day with forecast 1000 ft minimums that actually stay that way. Where I live now (VT) it's pretty much impossible to stay current by oneself because although there's a lot of low clouds, most of the time they're either TOO low, or have ice in them. The coast might be a better bet for good flyable IMC with the marine layer, but even there it's a trade-off for the OP's purposes because the airspace tends to be busy, so block altitudes are probably not often available.
 
There's a lot you can do with a block of airspace, but given what I'd do on a first or second lesson, it wouldn't be in the clouds.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There's a lot you can do with a block of airspace, but given what I'd do on a first or second lesson, it wouldn't be in the clouds.
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My initial reaction also. Reminde me of the CFI who does touch & goes on the firts lesson for a primary student or the MEI who figures th ebest 1st lesso in a twin is inhle engine approaches.

Except that there has apparently been a lot of preparatory sim time. So a "first" flight in the clouds could conceivably make sense.
 
I appreciate all the advise. I really do.

He has approx 6 to 8 hours sim time, so I wouldn't expect him to have that much difficulty controlling the airplane. I do understand that being in the clouds is a completely different beast when compared to flying with a hood or doing it in a sim. So I was thinking getting a block altitude which has both IMC and VMC conditions, just in case it's too much for him.
 
I wouldn't be so much worried about his ability to control the airplane, but with as many as 5 of the primary instruments covered, my ability to monitor that in the clouds might be compromised. ;)

Granted, your syllabus probably doesn't match mine.
 
"Departure, N12345 requests block 040-080 within 10 miles of FASHE"
"N12345, maneuver as requested"
Just ask and work something out. Even though it's IMC, you don't have to be on a published route or procedure. But I'd agree with others here, that the first real flight for IFR training shouldn't be in actual IMC...
 
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