Landing without elevator?

A fellow CFI and I tried landing with just elevator trim once. Can it be done? Yep. I had to take control at the last second to keep from smacking the ground but I'm sure we would of survived.


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Last year, we had a local Part 141 school CFI/Student land on a 2900' runway with a stuck elevator. It "unstuck" on final:eek: . I don't know if I would have been as cool as the CFI. But, he and the student made in on the ground without causing further damage. Turns out a wire bundle was chaffing on the control.
 
Do it in the sim for the KC-10 every once in awhile. Definitely a firm landing.
 
Yes, in a 7GCBC using the elevator trim tab and rudder only.


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"Following the collision, the Eastern Air Lines Constellation continued to climb. The crew felt the aircraft shudder and begin a left turning dive back into clouds. There was no response from the controls or trim tabs, but the crew discovered that a degree of control was available by adjusting the throttles. The aircraft descended through solid cloud and a recovery was made below the cloud using throttles only. Several zooms were then made back into the clouds as the pilots attempted to gain control of their aircraft.
The pilots discovered a throttle setting that would maintain a descent in level attitude, with airspeed maintained between 125 and 140 knots; the nose rose when power was increased and fell when power was decreased. Their rate of descent could be maintained at approximately 500 feet per minute.
It was obvious to the pilots that the Constellation was badly damaged and that they needed to make an emergency landing. However, they were over mainly wooded terrain on the Connecticut-New York border, and the few fields were surrounded by stone walls, sited on sloping terrain, and not large enough. Captain White advised the passengers that there had been a collision, that the aircraft was out of control, and that a crash landing would be made.
The aircraft descended on a southwest heading over Danbury Municipal Airport, Connecticut at an altitude of 2,000 feet. Around two miles ahead, White spotted a pasture halfway up Hunt Mountain, a 900 ft ridge running perpendicular to the Constellation's flightpath. He aligned the aircraft using asymmetric thrust, told passengers to brace themselves, and descended into the upward sloping hillside with wheels and flaps retracted. At the last moment he jammed the throttles forward to pitch up the aircraft's nose, letting the Constellation pancake into the 15% slope.
The crash-landing site was 4.2 miles north of an area where numerous parts from both aircraft were later found by investigators. The first impact was on a tree that was found broken 46 feet above the ground. 250 feet farther on, the left wing contacted another tree and was separated from the aircraft. The fuselage contacted the ground at the same point and the aircraft came to rest on the slope. The fuselage had been broken into three pieces and all the engines had been separated from their nacelles.
The cockpit and cabin crews survived the crash landing and worked both inside and outside the broken fuselage parts to evacuate the survivors from the wreckage, which was on fire. Volunteer firemen from North Salem, Ridgefield, Connecticut, and nearby communities extinguished the fire and transported the survivors to hospitals at Danbury, Connecticut; Mount Kisco, New York; and Carmel, New York, where two passengers later died of their injuries. Firefighters later discovered two bodies in the fuselage - that of a passenger in the forward section, and that of Captain White who had returned to the cabin to help the passenger. Both had died due to smoke inhalation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Carmel_mid-air_collision

dtuuri
 
wilkersk said:
Last year, we had a local Part 141 school CFI/Student land on a 2900' runway with a stuck elevator. It "unstuck" on final:eek: . I don't know if I would have been as cool as the CFI. But, he and the student made in on the ground without causing further damage. Turns out a wire bundle was chaffing on the control.
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Such good inspections some airplanes get...
 
Had to do it before I got signed off for one of my check rides. I sometimes land the Comanche with trim only.
 
I've played around with controlling the airplane with trim, rudders and throttle only - at altitude. It's doable.

But trim wouldn't do much with truly stuck controls. For that, depending on the position in which the elevator stuck, you'd have to use throttles and find a setting that got you in. In a Cessna or similar I don't think that would be unrealistic if you had time to figure things out first and get a feel for it.

If the ailerons stuck, well, you're probably boned but there is a slight chance you could counter it with opposite rudder. Doubtful.
 
Should be part of PPL training. It's good practice and you just never know when that practice might save your twinkies.
 
old cfi said:
Should be part of PPL training. It's good practice and you just never know when that practice might save your twinkies.
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That's what I initially thought, ideallistically. But let's face it, how many students would you, as a CFI, allow to land an airplane with limited controls when they can barely avoid killing themselves normally?
I would definitely welcome it as an add-on post-PPL training course, something like an "advanced" class. I will definitely talk to my CFI but I still thnk it would be a good idea to offer later in a pilot's flying career, along with spins, flap failures, gear failures, prop failures etc.
 
I did it with my students just a couple hours short of their checkride. Always believed you couldn't show them enough for their PPL. Still think that. Also when doing hood work (PPL) besides straight and level, turns and climbs, and unusual attitudes we did slow flight, full stalls and steep turns. When I see the statistics for "flight into IFR by VFR pilot" resulting in fatalities, I'm glad my program was as it was. And if they wanted to do spins, we did that, too (not under the hood though).

Gear and prop failures are, or should be, stressed in the complex training. Same with multi - I hammered Vmc and engine-out.

I never signed anyone off for a checkride if I felt my kids couldn't fly safely with them. Did have 1 multi student that for the life of him couldn't do a steep turn without losing 500 ft. or more. I even put him with another instructor for the turns. Couldn't do them with him, either. He kept pressing me to sign him off for his checkride. I wouldn't do it. Turned up missing for a couple weeks. By the way, he owned the multi. Came back with his multi rating from one of those weekend schools that were so popular back in the 80's. Still couldn't do a steep turn within tolerance. But I got the last laugh -- insurance company wouldn't cover him in his own airplane without an MEI aboard. I ended up flying with him for over a year everywhere he wanted to go and that included a lot of ground time pay!!!
 
Never happened to me. (Knock on wood)

But I would assume your best bet would be to find out what power setting/ flap configuration would give you a 100-200 fpm descent. Then shooting a long stable final in that configuration until getting on the ground.

Probably a hard landing. But at least you'll be able to tell us on this thread afterwards. Haha
 
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I saw it happen once in a QuickSilver MXL. The aircraft was test-flown after being assembled for the season. A pin that connected elevator push-pull was not secured properly and fell out in flight. The pilot landed using the throttle for attitude control.
 
I do believe all certified airplanes must demonstrate the capability of landing with no elevator control - i.e. via trim. I think its in the certification standards.

Is someone familiar with that requirement?
 
FastEddieB said:
I do believe all certified airplanes must demonstrate the capability of landing with no elevator control - i.e. via trim. I think its in the certification standards.

Is someone familiar with that requirement?
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I wonder how that works on a Cirrus. There's no physical moving trim component, it simply electrically moves the control surface. If it were jammed I suspect that would be a big problem... (pulls chute) ;)
 
whereisrandall said:
Has anyone tried this, and if so, in what aircraft?
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Cessna 152. Prior to check ride my CFL asked if there was anything I wanted to see or do not previously covered. I told him two things:

1. Light gun simulation
2. Approach to land without elevator or ailerons (yoke failure).

CFI indicated you would probably only lose one of the yolk functions if there was a cable problem. Used trim, throttle, doors and rudder ... flaps were 10* only or none to reduce approach angle.
 
In an RV with truly stuck flight controls, you will probably be screwed.
However, I do personally know someone who was in a midair collision in his Thorpe T18 (which has similar handling characteristic to an RV) after taking off from Oshkosh back in the 1990's, and had stuck ailerons which rendered the airplane in a constant left turn, but was able to vary the turn rate and descent rate enough with throttle and rudder to get back to a runway, and just before landing was able to free up the ailerons enough to land safely. The Thorpe was repaired, and is still flying today.
 
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