New annual instead of pre-buy inspection

saddletramp

saddletramp

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saddletramp
I found a Cessna 182Q model that I'm thinking of buying. I saw it in person yesterday. It's a two-owner airplane & has 3400tt with a factory new engine installed 450 hours ago. Older full-IFR radios that are all IFR certified but no GPS. The avionics are King silver crown. Good stuff in it's day & everything works including the DME. Always hangared, no corrosion, & the original paint & interior is very presentable.

My question is this. Since the annual will be due in June would it be fair to ask the owner to have an annual due now, at the shop I prefer instead of a pre-buy inspection?

I know everything is negotiable but would such a request seem reasonable?

Opinions appreciated. Thanks.
 
saddletramp said:
I found a Cessna 182Q model that I'm thinking of buying. I saw it in person yesterday. It's a two-owner airplane & has 3400tt with a factory new engine installed 450 hours ago. Older full-IFR radios that are all IFR certified but no GPS. The avionics are King silver crown. Good stuff in it's day & everything works including the DME. Always hangared, no corrosion, & the original paint & interior is very presentable.

My question is this. Since the annual will be due in June would it be fair to ask the owner to have an annual due now, at the shop I prefer instead of a pre-buy inspection?

I know everything is negotiable but would such a request seem reasonable?

Opinions appreciated. Thanks.
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Sounds like a good find! Especially if its being flown regularly.

However, imo a pre-purchase inspection and an annual are not the same thing at all.

A pre-purchase should be evaluating for things that may result in a decision not to purchase the airplane at all, or might be reasonable grounds for negotiating an adjustment in closing price (e.g. prior damage that was not revealed, or not repaired correctly, corrosion, ADs not complied with even though the airplane is flying with a "current" annual, that sort of thing).

"Fresh annual" is meaningless to me when I have shopped for an airplane. I always pay a reputable shop independent of the seller's normal maintenance provider to do a thorough pre-purchase regardless.

If the airplane passes pre-purchase inspection and is coming up on annual by all means everything is negotiable, so if you can get the seller to pick up part or all of the cost of doing an annual while the airplane is apart go for it. But don't negotiate on step "B" before you complete "A".
 
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Everyone seems to have a different idea on what a prebuy is, I've always considered it a much more intense job compared to a annual, for me airworthy is expected (shy of a project), the prebuy checks everything and compares it to the price, it finds snags which you deal with the seller on, and if anything bad enough comes up it turns into a no go, if all looks good, or the snags are resolved, it's a purchase.

For the two airplanes I've bought I have had my prebuy also serve as a fresh annual, if any airworthy level items were found they were addressed or we hit the eject button. Only airworthy item I have come across, on both planes actually were one expired ELT battery and one that was just about to expire and didn't have enough time to make the ferry flight home.
 
The pre-buy looks to see if everything works, if it flies right, if the known problem areas have been covered, and it should provide input on what things are nearly their life limit or what expensive AD's might be just around the corner. The annual tells you that the aircraft is minimally airworthy on that day, but no promises about tomorrow. In short, they are two different inspections with two different goals. The trick is finding an A&P that knows how to do a pre-buy inspection, as this is not taught and there is not standard. Fortunately, a C-182 is not particularly complicated and not rare. AOPA has some good information on what to expect in a pre-buy, so with that you can probably find a mechanic to do one to your satisfaction.

It is perfectly reasonable to take the airplane to a different shop, open it up and do the pre-buy and then negotiate the final price and what the seller will pay for, and then turn it into an annual inspection. All that should start with the test flight that checks the avionics and the systems. You may be able to do that yourself.
 
When it comes to airplanes, a pre-purchase inspection is the best money you will ever throw away. Don't look for shortcuts.

-John
 
Not reasonable to ask the owner to pay for the annual. You *start* the annual as part of a prebuy inspection by the A/P of YOUR choice. Items that are required to be done to make it airworthy fall to the seller. If the seller won't fix anything airworthy and you feel he should, you write a check to the A/P for what was done and to put it back together and walk away. Anything non-airworthy or that might come due (AD's, etc...) in the near future, can be negotiated between you and the seller.
 
James331 said:
one expired ELT battery and one that was just about to expire and didn't have enough time to make the ferry flight home.
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91.207
(e) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, a person may—
(1) Ferry a newly acquired airplane from the place where possession of it was taken to a place where the emergency locator transmitter is to be installed; and
(2) Ferry an airplane with an inoperative emergency locator transmitter from a place where repairs or replacements cannot be made to a place where they can be made.
 
Do not substitute a seller-paid annual to a mechanic of the seller's choice for a pre-buy inspection done by a mechanic of your choice.

Or at least do as @EdFred suggests: do a combined annual/pre-buy with a mechanic of your choice and see if the seller will agree to pay a portion of the cost.

Admittedly, I personally tend to see the ones that go badly, but the ones I've seen where that happens go very badly.
 
I would have MY guy do a pre-buy with the idea that it would become an annual if you buy it. Basically, he looks at all the stuff for an annual and a few other items that you and he decide. The seller pays for airworthiness items and you pay for the inspection. Since it is close to annual time, you might split the flat rate charge for the annual with him. Expect to pay your half upfront, most shops won't do a pre-buy without being paid upfront and I can't blame them. If it goes sideways they are caught in the middle. My last 182, I did a one day prebuy, logbooks and general condition and my agreement was I would either buy it at the agreed upon price or not. It worked out great, it was pretty similar to the one you are looking at 2350 hours, 350 on reman and lots of King silver crown! :)
 
EdFred said:
91.207
(e) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, a person may—
(1) Ferry a newly acquired airplane from the place where possession of it was taken to a place where the emergency locator transmitter is to be installed; and
(2) Ferry an airplane with an inoperative emergency locator transmitter from a place where repairs or replacements cannot be made to a place where they can be made.
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Didn't know about that one, still I wouldn't have let the seller off from buying a new battery.


EdFred said:
Not reasonable to ask the owner to pay for the annual. ...
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Why not? If it sweetens the pot enough for me to buy and he's down to do it, why not?

Nothing wrong with that, really I could also ask for his golf clubs to be included, it's negotiations.
 
My 421 was about a month away from the annual being due, we split the flat rate and he fixed every squawk, worked out good for both of us. When I went to leave with the plane, I had it fueled and one of the aux tanks leaked, he sent me a check to have it fixed when I got it home. Good broker, good seller.

James331 said:
Didn't know about that one, still I wouldn't have let the seller off from buying a new battery.




Why not? If it sweetens the pot enough for me to buy and he's down to do it, why not?

Nothing wrong with that, really I could also ask for his golf clubs to be included, it's negotiations.
Click to expand...
 
James331 said:
Didn't know about that one, still I wouldn't have let the seller off from buying a new battery.




Why not? If it sweetens the pot enough for me to buy and he's down to do it, why not?

Nothing wrong with that, really I could also ask for his golf clubs to be included, it's negotiations.
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I should have said not reasonable to expect the seller to pay for it. Hell, you *could* ask to bang the seller's wife as part of the deal, but I wouldn't expect them to say yes.
 
I'll fly the 182 in about 7-10 days when the actual seller is back in the area. If the airplane flies well then we'll discuss the pre-buy/annual.

Today, he sent me a zip file with all the logbooks. I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

The good thing is I have a lot of 182 time & a majority of it was in Q model.

I appreciate all of the input.
 
saddletramp said:
I found a Cessna 182Q model that I'm thinking of buying. I saw it in person yesterday. It's a two-owner airplane & has 3400tt with a factory new engine installed 450 hours ago. Older full-IFR radios that are all IFR certified but no GPS. The avionics are King silver crown. Good stuff in it's day & everything works including the DME. Always hangared, no corrosion, & the original paint & interior is very presentable.

My question is this. Since the annual will be due in June would it be fair to ask the owner to have an annual due now, at the shop I prefer instead of a pre-buy inspection?

I know everything is negotiable but would such a request seem reasonable?

Opinions appreciated. Thanks.
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You can always ask.
 
When the A/C is priced right, and listed "As is Where is" you guys might get told to take a hike. When buyers don't know a good deal when they see one, they deserve to loose out on good buy.
 
I just sold and here is my take. Prebuy is on the buyers dime. If something pops up that is an airworthy issue, that is a show stopper, the seller either fixes or the buyer walks and the seller is on the hook for the inspection.

My contract basically said if the buyer doesn't like the prebuy, he walks and I pay the inspection fee. That's fair to me and the buyer.

Once the prebuy is approved, the buyer has directed the annual at their expense. If something comes up during that time, the buyer is on the hook for all of the inspections as the annual was an elective and not in the prebuy phase. They can still walk, but they are now on the hook for the inspections and the deposit forfeiture unless there is some additional negotiations.
 
Things that are done for a pre-buy may well not be included in an annual. Example: if the engine has not been run regularly or there is some other reason for suspicion, pulling a jug and borescoping the cam lobes and lifter faces. Example: Reviewing the Service Difficulty Reports for the model to determine what things should get an extra careful look.
 
Tom-D said:
When the A/C is priced right, and listed "As is Where is" you guys might get told to take a hike. When buyers don't know a good deal when they see one, they deserve to loose out on good buy.
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Shhhh! Don't confuse those who think one size fits all with the concept that it depends on what the deal actually is and who the people actually are.
 
For it to be meaningful, YOU need to be the mechanic that does the prebuy, or arrange for one to come to the sellers airport or have the plane taken to your mechanic at another airport. Using the sellers mechanic drastically reduces the usefullness. And all that is a HASSLE.

Now you can do a pretty good prebuy with just YOU flying the plane and checking what does and doesnt work, having an independent compression test done, and corrosion inspection (that can be problematic).
 
midlifeflyer said:
Shhhh! Don't confuse those who think one size fits all with the concept that it depends on what the deal actually is and who the people actually are.
Click to expand...
Yes. I learned from owning a company that bought and sold fairly high dollar used capital equipment. My priority in a deal is to learn as much as I can about the seller. What does he do for a living? What is his attitude towards the airplane? Does he always want the best and can he afford to pay for it? Is he living paycheck-to-paycheck for the dream of flying and hence maybe having to cut corners? Is he an executive with likely good negotiation skills or am I dealing with an amateur whose emotions may mess things up? Why is he selling? Does he need the money? If yes, emotion becomes the risk. If no, then the money is for score-keeping and ego becomes the risk. If it is an urgent sale, is there a good reason that does not reflect on the airplane? In some circumstances I might even buy a liens and judgments search. Reading judgments can be very illuminating. And so on ...

So to the OP's question, frequently asked here, about whether something in a negotiation is "reasonable" there is no answer except from learning about the seller. Then, by his actions, the buyer will begin teaching the seller about who the buyer is, his knowledge, his financial capability, etc. Deals with unrealistic expectations, arrogance, naivete, or dishonesty on either side of the table are the ones that turn bad.
 
If the owner isn't willing to fly in it, that tells you something. But with used planes and used cars, just about everyone is, shall we say, less than honest.
 
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